Werebear & Spells

[Erol of Backford]

If a werebear (yes we have them from RQ1-2) casts say iron hands on their human form and they metamorphosize to bear form the spell would stay active for the 15 minute duration? If you don't feel so please explain why the transformation would cancel the spell in your mind...

Additionally when seeing the spell The Stag's Crown (Six Seasons in Sartar) for the first time I thought wow, now the broo with horn/headbutt attacks get it back: a werebear with The Stag's Crown could gain an extra attack.

If a highly intelligent 18 INT werecreature (think Dr. Jekyll) would have 2/3 INT and so couldn't they just cast the spells in were-form with an INT of 12?

Does anyone allow PC's - NPC's with lycanthropy to use iron hands, Stag's Crown, etc while in animal form?

What about Toothsharp?

The werebear we have is working to be a shaman so it doesn't bother the group but I am skeptical to give the bear powers even they cannot attack with weapons...

Thanks for the input.

Spoiler

 

[Brian Duguid]

12 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

If a werebear (yes we have them from RQ1-2) casts say iron hands on their human form and they metamorphosize to bear form the spell would stay active for the 15 minute duration? If you don't feel so please explain why the transformation would cancel the spell in your mind...

Do you mean the RQ2 battle magic spell Ironhand? I'd say that will definitely carry over. But it only lasts for 10 melee rounds i.e. two minutes, not 15 minutes, and it has a maximum benefit of +20% skill / +4 damage, so it's not great.

[Godlearner]

3 hours ago, Brian Duguid said:

Do you mean the RQ2 battle magic spell Ironhand? I'd say that will definitely carry over. But it only lasts for 10 melee rounds i.e. two minutes, not 15 minutes, and it has a maximum benefit of +20% skill / +4 damage, so it's not great.

5 minutes in RQ3

[French Desperate WindChild]

16 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

If a werebear (yes we have them from RQ1-2) casts say iron hands on their human form and they metamorphosize to bear form the spell would stay active for the 15 minute duration? If you don't feel so please explain why the transformation would cancel the spell in your mind...

there are two levels :

1) a spirit (or battle in some previous version ?) magic duration should not be "extended" by a rune spell (except if a specific spell allows it)

2) up to gm to answer if the hand is the same before and after transformation. For me, it is not. As example, if you cast iron hand before the transformation, that is the human hand which is "upgraded", and once transformed the effect is lost. However it is the same spell to improve the bear form.

So I would advice to cast the bear transformation before the ironhand if you want both effects. but ironhand would be for 5 minutes (or more with shamanic powers, or lunar magic )

But in fact, if a player doesn't say the character does anything between the two spells casting , let's say it is in the good order 🙂

But not in all cases : example :

• I'm in a human form
• I can't open the door, for any reason
• I cast iron hand to help me, it works (thanks to the good gm 😛 )
• Then I open the door ! And I see an ennemy. I decide to transform myself
• I'm now a bear. But without the spell because I have not any more my human hands
• So I cast again the spell and know I have the bonus

 

 

Edited June 5, 2023 by French Desperate WindChild

[Akhôrahil]

13 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

2) up to gm to answer if the hand is the same before and after transformation. For me, it is not. As example, if you cast iron hand before the transformation, that is the human hand which is "upgraded", and once transformed the effect is lost. However it is the same spell to improve the bear form.

This is a misreading of the spell (although you can of course make whatever ruling you feel proper) - you don't cast it on a natural weapon, you cast it on yourself (or someone else) and then it affects all natural weapons.

"Though the name implies it works only on hands, the spell
affects the whole body, including maneuvers like head-
butting and kicking. "

Edited June 5, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[French Desperate WindChild]

11 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

This is a misreading of the spell (although you can of course make whatever ruling you feel proper) - you don't cast it on a natural weapon, you cast it on yourself (or someone else) and then it affects all natural weapons.

"Though the name implies it works only on hands, the spell
affects the whole body, including maneuvers like head-
butting and kicking. "

yes you are right I haven't it on mind. However does it change the reasoning ? you cast it on your body. Is it the same before and after ?

 

oh reading again the spell, it is worst than that :

Quote

. Various nonhuman creatures have Ironclaw, Ironbeak, Ironhoof spells, etc., which work in the same fashion. Note that the magical damage can allow the user to strike and potentially damage magical creatures otherwise invulnerable to normal weapons. Telmori Wolfbrothers, for instance, are not hurt by the actual unarmed strike, but may be hurt by the magical damage bonus.

then if i follow my internal logic, as you change your body shape (human shape to nonhuman shape) you should use ironclaw and not ironhand when you are in the bear shape ?

 

I will be more a worse gm to not allow the use of iron hand then 😛 not my fault, @Akhôrahil's responsability !

or not...  will depends on the players and the ice cream  😉

 

 

[Akhôrahil]

19 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

yes you are right I haven't it on mind. However does it change the reasoning ? you cast it on your body. Is it the same before and after ?

I mean, it's still your body, surely? 🙂 Otherwise you could shapeshift out of all kinds of targeted spells, and that would matter.

Edited June 6, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Godlearner]

The only reason I would think that it would stop working after the shapechange, is that previously it was stated in various places that spells cast on weapond with multiple striking surfaces, like spears with both sharpened ends, or animals with multiple attack forms (or humans), had to be placed on a specific end/attack.  In the case above, the Ironhand would have most likely been cast to affect a punch or a kick, or a head butt and bears do not have those forms of attacks. If the spell was lets sy cast to improve the humans bite attack, and in certain situations that would make sense, then I do not see a reason as to why it not continue to work in bear form on the bite.

[JRE]

Reading the description in the Red Book, I would say it is clearly compatible with the different extra body attacks and even enhancements such as Chomp, so if it works on my Antlers after I grow them, because they are a natural weapon, I assume it would still work if I also add Transform Self and become an elk. That is why it specifies it is a full body spell. Considering the spirit magic foci, it makes sense to cast it before the Transform Self, or other major change such as a Transform Head.

Correspondingly, and it is a difference with Bladesharp and Bludgeon, it still works even if someone cuts my hands off (if I somehow can keep fighting, of course), compared to breaking up a weapon.

[PhilHibbs]

The RQG spell description IIRC says it works on all natural attacks, I'm not sure about previous editions. The Gringle quite implies that it was a separate spell in RQ1 & RQ2, like Xenohealing was.

And there's nothing inherently stupid about werebears, I think it's only cursed Telmori that lose their intellectual faculties when transforming under the moon.

[soltakss]

On 6/4/2023 at 10:10 PM, Erol of Backford said:

Additionally when seeing the spell The Stag's Crown (Six Seasons in Sartar) for the first time I thought wow, now the broo with horn/headbutt attacks get it back: a werebear with The Stag's Crown could gain an extra attack.

Yes, they get an extra attack.

On 6/4/2023 at 10:10 PM, Erol of Backford said:

If a werebear (yes we have them from RQ1-2) casts say iron hands on their human form and they metamorphosize to bear form the spell would stay active for the 15 minute duration? If you don't feel so please explain why the transformation would cancel the spell in your mind...

The Ironhand spell lasts for 10 rounds (5 minutes in RQ3) then expires, but the Transform spell still remains in place.

On 6/4/2023 at 10:10 PM, Erol of Backford said:

If a highly intelligent 18 INT werecreature (think Dr. Jekyll) would have 2/3 INT and so couldn't they just cast the spells in were-form with an INT of 12?

I would say yes.

On 6/4/2023 at 10:10 PM, Erol of Backford said:

Does anyone allow PC's - NPC's with lycanthropy to use iron hands, Stag's Crown, etc while in animal form?

Yes.

However, Stag's Crown is not a Bearwalker spell, so it is unlikely that they would have it, unless the Adventurer gained it in an unusual way.

On 6/4/2023 at 10:10 PM, Erol of Backford said:

What about Toothsharp?

That is just another name for Ironhand.

 

[Akhôrahil]

19 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

And there's nothing inherently stupid about werebears, I think it's only cursed Telmori that lose their intellectual faculties when transforming under the moon.

Agree - this is the Curse, not the regular transformation.

Werebears are just what the early game had instead of Rathori, correct? Just as the Sons of the Tiger became the Hsa?

[Erol of Backford]

On 6/8/2023 at 2:10 AM, soltakss said:

unless the Adventurer gained it in an unusual way.

A shaman werebear of course.

On 6/7/2023 at 9:37 AM, PhilHibbs said:

And there's nothing inherently stupid about werebears, I think it's only cursed Telmori that lose their intellectual faculties when transforming under the moon.

I suppose a werebear doesn't have to be cursed?

Thanks everyone.

[French Desperate WindChild]

5 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

A shaman werebear of course.

I suppose a werebear doesn't have to be cursed?

Thanks everyone.

Imo it depends

what do you call werebear ?

is it a Rathori = A hunshen ?

if yes no reason to be cursed because the bear. It is just normal

of course the pc may be cursed but as any pc for personal reason (great uncle did something wrong you are cursed or you did something wrong ten years ago you are cursed. Or the omen were bad 20 years ago, your clan think you are cursed, so you think so but there is no evidence of the curse)

but if it is not a rathori, what it is ?
Something « natural » like the fox women ? Then you (gm) has to create something, it is not only bearskin it is something else, more « wild » with benefit and issues (is it a curse ? Your choice)

Something weird, a « true »human able to transform (sartarite esrolian lunar etc…) of course it is a curse… or not. In all cases I would say that Rathor and other bears spirits have to decide what to do with this weird human. Will they accept him as a rathori (sending some hunshen to try to adopt him) will they consider it as is (ok it is weird but don’t care)!will they be angry (it is an abomination hunt him ! Then the curse)

 

so if rathori it is just normal

if it is not rathori it is up to you 😝

[Erol of Backford]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Rathori = A hunshen

Sadly just a normal Rathori.

But was sleeping under the ban, woke in the Yellow Bear Hills and so is now wandering and even plays a flute...

[French Desperate WindChild]

10 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Sadly just a normal Rathori.

bah why sadly ?

i m pretty sure the father of the niece of the "female" of your grand grande uncle had to eat some bear flesh because he failed to sleep during a hard winter...

Your character is cursed and must find a way to clean at least herself but better all your family (or your clan)...

maybe some bear spirits cannot be joined, or are hostile

how happy it is !

[Erol of Backford]

10 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Your character is cursed and must find a way to clean at least herself but better all your family (or your clan)...

Don't like to be cursed or in case I am misunderstanding not detecting as chaos?

I am assuming the character isn't, I ate bear meat at a wild game night once years ago (they had signs up no road kill but I wasn't sure as my friend got sick from the opossum goulash...) and I wasn't tainted with chaos?

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 minute ago, Erol of Backford said:

Don't like to be cursed or in case I am misunderstanding not detecting as chaos?

I am assuming the character isn't, I ate bear meat at a wild game night once years ago (they had signs up no road kill but I wasn't sure as my friend got sick from the opossum goulash...) and I wasn't tainted with chaos?

Nope I don’t say curse= chaos

 

there are , at least img, curse without chaos

The telmori curse is associated with chaos because they followed nysalor 

[Erol of Backford]

I'll buy that, thanks!

[Akhôrahil]

I mean, I would be utterly shocked if no-one in Glorantha has ever been hit with a bear transformation curse (probably some tragic stuff about eating relatives, getting killed by them, or both). But it’s not a standard pattern.

Edited June 11, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[JRE]

I would also link it to the Lady of the Wild or, obviously, Odayla. A curse for a selfish hunter that does not share. Or someone who kills another hunter in the fury of the hunt. It might even be a blessing for an Odaylan hermit living in a cave, but maybe not to his or her descendants.