GianniVacca Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 The Chinese used both linen and papier mâché armours. They were pretty popular in hot, coastal areas, where metal armour would have probably driven a warrior mad Quote 「天朝大國」,https://rpggeek.com/rpgitem/92874/celestial-empire 很有意思: http://celestialempire.blogspot.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonewt Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 Greek "Linothorax" might have been made of linen (all assumption, educated guess and theory), yet no evidence has been found. Citation required. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agentorange Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 We think of those materials as soft and fragile ... and they are as T-shirt or bathrobe cloth. But the ancients laminated them together something in the way that old newsprint is glued to make paper mache. The result was hard and surprisingly tough. As long as you didn't get it wet, it was pretty effective. "My dad went to Troy, and all I got was this lousy linothorax." Some people are never satisfied, the name tag on the linothorax says Hector and you're still not happy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rust Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 Greek "Linothorax" might have been made of linen (all assumption, educated guess and theory), yet no evidence has been found. Citation required. "Lino ..." means "made of linen", and I would be very surprised if the ancient Greek authors would have fumbled their mother tongue rolls. Quote "Mind like parachute, function only when open." (Charlie Chan) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonewt Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 "Lino ..." means "made of linen", and I would be very surprised if the ancient Greek authors would have fumbled their mother tongue rolls. My understanding is that "linothorax" is a word of modern construction, but based on Greek root words. Hence my use of quotation marks when using the word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rust Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 (edited) My understanding is that "linothorax" is a word of modern construction, but based on Greek root words. Hence my use of quotation marks when using the word. Homer already used "Linothorax" (λινοθώρηξ), and so did others of the ancient authors. Edit.: I looked it up in an online translation of the Iliad to see whether any other inter- pretation would be possible, but the text is very clear: Ajax, the fleet son of Oileus, commanded the Locrians. He was not so great, nor nearly so great, as Ajax the son of Telamon. He was a little man, and his breastplate was made of linen, but in use of the spear he excelled all the Hellenes and the Achaeans. http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/iliad.html Other translations of the Iliad are identical, Homer definitely wrote about a thorax / breastplate made of linen. Edited May 29, 2011 by rust Quote "Mind like parachute, function only when open." (Charlie Chan) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HierophantX Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 It's odd but I was unaware that there was a controversy. When I saw linen armor in the Warlords supplement I was like "Finally!" I'd been house-ruling such things for years. That Linothorax project at UW Green Bay makes me wish I had gone there instead of South Carolina for my Archaeology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonewt Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 That Linothorax project at UW Green Bay makes me wish I had gone there instead of South Carolina for my Archaeology. Did the linen used in the Linothorax project match the same qualities (weave, binding, structure, etc...) of the linen that would have been used in ancient Greece? Did the project demonstrate that this had been considered for the tests and the conclusion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rust Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 (edited) Did the linen used in the Linothorax project match the same qualities (weave, binding, structure, etc...) of the linen that would have been used in ancient Greece? Did the project demonstrate that this had been considered for the tests and the conclusion? From the project's webpage: Using the available literary and artistic sources, the group has reconstructed several linothoraxes using only the authentic fabrics and glues that would have been available in the ancient Mediterranean. By the way, there was also a late distant relative of the linothorax, the Gambeson, although in this case the layers of linen were quilted toge- ther instead of glued together: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambeson Edited May 29, 2011 by rust Quote "Mind like parachute, function only when open." (Charlie Chan) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seneschal Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 But enough of the linothorax controversy. Let's start a NEW ancient Greek controversy ... Beyonce as Wonder Woman. Discuss. >:> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rust Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 Beyonce as Wonder Woman. Discuss. Well, nothing wrong with her thorax, I think. Quote "Mind like parachute, function only when open." (Charlie Chan) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HierophantX Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 wait... wha? I thought that was like 10 years ago and it never happened? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rust Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 wait... wha? I thought that was like 10 years ago and it never happened? It seems seneschal never really got over it ... Quote "Mind like parachute, function only when open." (Charlie Chan) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Hoyle Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 Since it's going to be awhile before the official BRP Greek project, how about we talk about how to adapt existing BRP rules to a Greek setting? I'm interested in a Homeric Greece type setting, with gods included. So where do we start? Gods? Magic? How about both? I've mostly played RQ3 over the years, so I'm more used to that, but I also have the big BRP rulebook, too. Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seneschal Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 It seems seneschal never really got over it ... It was apparently two years ago. And I just heard about it today while pulling up random superhero stuff online. Speaking of superheroes ... Homeric action heroes. They'd need the CON+SIZ calculation for Hit Points. They'd get occasional special equipment from assorted divine relatives. They'd be able to wade through mooks easily but engage in regular gritty combat against other heroes. They'd get occasional power boosts from a godly sponsor, enabling them to perform outrageous feats temporarily until it wore off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rust Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 Speaking of superheroes ... Homeric action heroes. They'd need the CON+SIZ calculation for Hit Points. They'd get occasional special equipment from assorted divine relatives. They'd be able to wade through mooks easily but engage in regular gritty combat against other heroes. They'd get occasional power boosts from a godly sponsor, enabling them to perform outrageous feats temporarily until it wore off. And they usually have at least one enemy among the deities who wants them dead, uses his or her powers to make life miserable for them, and often also succeeds in killing them. The more heroic the hero is, the higher is the probabi- lity that one of the deities will begin to dislike what he does, and therefore be- gin to plot his downfall. For example, Ajax - mentioned some posts earlier - an- gered Athena, who had him shipwrecked, and when he survived this and boas- ted that even she did not manage to kill him, Poseidon made him drown ... Quote "Mind like parachute, function only when open." (Charlie Chan) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agentorange Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 Whilst slightly off topic the D20 supplements spawned some useful material. I bought all all of the following: http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=1668&it=1 mongoose ancients http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=1557&it=1 New argonauts ( free download...what have you got to lose ! ) http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=536&products_id=19168&it=1&filters=0_0_0_0&manufacturers_id=536 Green Ronin Trojan war. All had useful stuff in, and both the Mongoose and Ronin books had mechanics for divine patronage and disfavour. Worth a look if you can get them cheap, and like I said the argonauts book is a free download at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USAFguy Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 I toyed with the idea of a Greek Campaign, pre-Trojan War, the characters would be of a generation before the Trojan War. Thus, they could do many of the quests (argonauts, etc), but would be retired before that war. Allegiance to one or more of the Gods would be critical and every 10 or so points would add 5 or more character points to strength, con, dex, pow, int whatever...(this was not fleshed out)...and at certain levels, say 25/50/75/etc, gain a feat a la Runequest that was applicable to that god/goddess Patron. Ways to gain more allegiance/patronage points would be to periodically hold huge sacrifices to their patrons, as mentioned in one of the early Different Worlds magazine ariticles on a Greek Campaign. The (non-historical) protagonists, if needed, could be those darn-dirty Minoans who still worshipped a lingering Titan or two, who granted them the abilities to create beast-men thru foul, corrupt titan-ic magicks who served as the Minoans' strikeforces (Minotaurs, Centaurs) and mistakes (satyrs/fauns, whatever else tickles your fancy). But I'd much rather see what the pros came up with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seneschal Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 For inspiration, you might also browse through Mazes and Minotaurs, another free product. http://storygame.free.fr/MAZES.htm It's a D&D 1st edition near-clone designed for Harryhausen-style fantasy rather than for historical adventures, but it has eight 40-80 page supplements containing culturally accurate settings, critter write-ups, scenarios, deity descriptions, and campaign ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HierophantX Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 From my recent re-read of the Iliad and my immense enjoyment of the Age of Bronze comic book, I've noticed a dynamic. Much like in MRQ2: Vikings the people basically live in fear of the Gods. - Religious practice seems to revolve around making sure the Gods are properly propitiated because if they aren't then we're cursed. - Much is made of persons who might not actually be a priest but know the appropriate rites for a certain occasion. - Certain persons are regarded as sacrosanct, harming them invokes a curse. This system of belief as depicted in the literature doesn't really lend itself to the "Cult" system ala RQ in my opinion. But it does seem like it would work nicely in the Religion system used by Simon and Paolo in Merrie England and Stupor Mundi. Namely: Treat the Gods like Saints are treated in Merrie England and Stupor Mundi. In Age of Bronze, for instance, even though the Achaeans and Wilusans are obviously of different cultures and they call their gods by different names, they don't regard eachothers gods as different. In Troy Zeus is referred to as "the Storm God" (he probably would have been Teshub of the Hittites) but the chief Trojan divinities are the Sun God (Apollo) and "the Goddess" who is basically described as Athena. So my thinking is that everyone has a piety in "belief in the Gods" but prays at specially designated altars to patron divinities, investing some of their POW in the War God's altar for certain blessings and some of their POW in the God of Healing's altar for those obvious benefits. Naturally, certain shrines or temples are associated with certain patrons and you shop for the appropriate blessings in the appropriate places. This would make alot of sense in terms of game mechanics for characters to be religiously obligated to make a pilgrimage to a very specific shrine to make an appropriate offering to remove a curse or atone for a desecration (much like is done multiple times in the Trojan War epics). thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soltakss Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 Sounds good to me. Homeric Greece certainly needs some kind of magic from the gods. It's one of the settings where Ares grants some war magic, Apollo grants light and healing magic and so on. However, Gloranthan-style magic doesn't fit the setting, as not everyone has magic. So, gaining Blessings from the Gods makes sense. One thing I would say is that you can gain Blessings from different gods, not just the one you are dedicated to. So, making an offering to Apollo might give you some magic even though you normally follow Ares. A man could even make an offering to Artemis even though men do not normally worship Artemis. If you like a Clash of the Titans style game then the Gods and Goddesses could actively act to support or oppose characters. Whether you do this by magic or by some kind of Pact roll, I am not sure. Also, the version of The Iliad that I read has the gods playing a physical role, with Ares, Athena and the rest getting stuck in to battles, actually killing people. This is something that never happens in Glorantha, say, and sometimes happens in a Norse setting (Odin the Wanderer, for example). The Gods are more personal and are, to a certain extent, touchier and more dangerous as a result. Quote Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. www.soltakss.com/index.html Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rust Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 The Gods are more personal and are, to a certain extent, touchier and more dangerous as a result. It will depend on the style of the campaign, but if it is close to the "feeling" of the Greek myths and heroic tales, this also influences the consequences of an unwise use of a divine blessing - a character who uses it against the (not al- ways obvious) interests of the deity who gave him the blessing has probably earned himself a few centuries of cruel torture. There would also be many other dangers, acts which are always punished by the deities, like comparing someone with a deity, entering a deity's sacred place, kil- ling one of a deity's sacred animals, and so on and on. Quote "Mind like parachute, function only when open." (Charlie Chan) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HierophantX Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 Maybe not centuries of cruel torture per se, but certainly a loss of POW, some other characteristic and perhaps social consequences until propitiatory rites are performed... across the sea... at the sacred grove of Herakles on Tenedos...and you have to sacrifice your friend who you've unwittingly brought along... And, you only find out what you did wrong (and how to fix it) from an oracle who may have their own agenda.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rust Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 And, you only find out what you did wrong (and how to fix it) from an oracle who may have their own agenda.... ... or who later, much too late, turns out to have been Nemesis in disguise ... Quote "Mind like parachute, function only when open." (Charlie Chan) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soltakss Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 Maybe not centuries of cruel torture per se, but certainly a loss of POW, some other characteristic and perhaps social consequences until propitiatory rites are performed... across the sea... at the sacred grove of Herakles on Tenedos...and you have to sacrifice your friend who you've unwittingly brought along... Loss of POW is definitely a game mechnaic, but I'd go for characters being harassed and victimised by the deity concerned until he made amends. Greek mythology is full of such thngs. The Gods are portrayed as petty and vengeful, which is fine by me. Quote Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. www.soltakss.com/index.html Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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