Steads and social mobility

[Squaredeal Sten]

3 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Two parts to this.

, .......

Note that this set-up is a bit confusing though, as the RQG rulebook would have tenants at Poor standard of living and hence not Free (the old Carl/Cottar system) - this is why I think it's quite new, and it doesn't seem to quite mesh.  

As far as I can see the only change is the de emphasis of the terms " carl" and "cottar".  Which we are still free to use.  It's just a judgment that it is more appropriate to echo the Eastern Mediterranean bronze age than the Northern European iron age.  It is not a revision of the whole society.

Please see https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/a-few-notes-on-terms/

If you look at the background material it is pretty clear that there are not 8% nobles in Sartar.  There might be in Clearwine (taken separately from its agricultural area ) -  with a royal court and a great temple (maybe I will count up and review Jeff's writings to find the % in Clearwine ) -  but not out in the countryside.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 9, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten
Added link to Well of Daliath article

[Jeff]

3 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Two parts to this.

First:

"They have no land or herd assigned to them or their families but must work for some other household, or are itinerate labourers (stickpickers)"

But tenants do have land assigned to them (it's just that they have a very high rent to pay). They don't work for others as laborers (they're assigned 80 acres which is a lot and won't leave much spare time, so this is unlike say Roman tenants that were assigned perhaps 10-20 acres and hence had a lot of extra time to do agricultural work with)

Tenants work land assigned to someone else. 

 

[Akhôrahil]

4 hours ago, Jeff said:

Tenants work land assigned to someone else. 

Ah, so tenant farmers still count as semi-free? In that case, I'm a little confused about the numbers from this thread (about 17%) and the sample clan in the RQG rulebook (about 40%), unless that clan is non-representative?

[Shiningbrow]

On 7/6/2023 at 9:50 PM, Squaredeal Sten said:

Possession of the equipment necessary to stand in the fyrd battle line is what gives men and Vingans the electoral franchise.  At the most basic level this is a medium or large shield,  spear, and some kind of helmet.  Obviously body armor helps one survive so it is highly advisable though not compulsory.  Anyone who can afford to and does buy these, is in. They can vote.  It's not hereditary.  Anyone who does not have these is not going to be assigned land.

Just on that - remember that for most GMs and Players, if a stickpicker happens to kill someone, then they may well get the gear as a reward, instantly elevating them a bit. And since a pointed stick can still kill (or maim sufficiently to take captive for a ransom), I can see this happening with reasonable regularity.

And, facing down a well-armed and armoured foe with just a pitchfork takes some nerve, so a reputation is built up, and social mobility should ensue.

[Akhôrahil]

11 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Just on that - remember that for most GMs and Players, if a stickpicker happens to kill someone, then they may well get the gear as a reward, instantly elevating them a bit. And since a pointed stick can still kill (or maim sufficiently to take captive for a ransom), I can see this happening with reasonable regularity.

And, facing down a well-armed and armoured foe with just a pitchfork takes some nerve, so a reputation is built up, and social mobility should ensue.

I'm also not sure this is sufficient in itself - what the land and ox-team means is that you're fundamentally self-sufficient and not relying on anyone else. It's not just the weapons. KoS: " To qualify, a man must have a whole ox‑team and a plow, and he receives as much land as he can plow in two seasons: about 80 acres total. Carls are also expected to own a minimal set of military equipment, and use it to defend the community whenever the chief says to."

[French Desperate WindChild]

19 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Just on that - remember that for most GMs and Players, if a stickpicker happens to kill someone, then they may well get the gear as a reward, instantly elevating them a bit. And since a pointed stick can still kill (or maim sufficiently to take captive for a ransom), I can see this happening with reasonable regularity.

And, facing down a well-armed and armoured foe with just a pitchfork takes some nerve, so a reputation is built up, and social mobility should ensue.

maybe

however...

how did it happen ?

because depending on the reason, I'm not sure the clan will allow your guy to keep the gear

- is there any wergild for the "victim" ? who will pay ? is the gear just enough to cover the wergild ?

- was this fight a decision of your guy ? If yes, well there is a social mobility, but maybe as outlaw 😛

- was your guy expected to work elsewhere when it happens ? So why was he/she there ? If there is no political issue (like above), the boss may require all the gear as compensation, maybe more

- was your guy working when it happened and he/she saved courageously the boss wealth ? nice, a reward, however he/she is paid to work... so the gear is for the boss, right ? (something like the mercenary contracts)

- was your guy part of raid party / defense / .. anything decided by the clan (so something totally good, brave guy !). Well the gear is for the clan, and the clan ring will decide to manage the distribution.. A part for wergild, a part for the best warriors and leaders, a part for the boss, and maybe congratulation for your guy !

 

Note that I consider the stickpicker as a member of a clan social organisation (and of course, for me as you can see my answer, a clan organisation will do all its possible to no let a poor become rich . Because... if anyone can become rich just with one fight, who will work for the rich ?).

Of course if it is an adventurer without boss/contract, or a bandit without ... boss/contract, it is different. In both cases, a very poor adventurer / bandit may become a richer adventurer  / bandit but without any clan's help / law to protect from the family / clan / temple revenge or even local authorities appreciating to "defraud" the strangers

 

 

[Shiningbrow]

39 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I'm also not sure this is sufficient in itself - what the land and ox-team means is that you're fundamentally self-sufficient and not relying on anyone else. It's not just the weapons. KoS: " To qualify, a man must have a whole ox‑team and a plow, and he receives as much land as he can plow in two seasons: about 80 acres total. Carls are also expected to own a minimal set of military equipment, and use it to defend the community whenever the chief says to."

Oh, I agree (largely).

But it's one step up from mere stickpicker or dregs of society.

It gets the individual noticed, and that in itself can be enough. If a stickpicker is willing to risk their life, and shows some ability to help, the clan, then they could be moved onto a farm to then be part of a tenant's crew (for example).

[Shiningbrow]

16 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

maybe

however...

how did it happen ?

because depending on the reason, I'm not sure the clan will allow your guy to keep the gear

- is there any wergild for the "victim" ? who will pay ? is the gear just enough to cover the wergild ?

- was this fight a decision of your guy ? If yes, well there is a social mobility, but maybe as outlaw 😛

- was your guy expected to work elsewhere when it happens ? So why was he/she there ? If there is no political issue (like above), the boss may require all the gear as compensation, maybe more

- was your guy working when it happened and he/she saved courageously the boss wealth ? nice, a reward, however he/she is paid to work... so the gear is for the boss, right ? (something like the mercenary contracts)

- was your guy part of raid party / defense / .. anything decided by the clan (so something totally good, brave guy !). Well the gear is for the clan, and the clan ring will decide to manage the distribution.. A part for wergild, a part for the best warriors and leaders, a part for the boss, and maybe congratulation for your guy !

 

Note that I consider the stickpicker as a member of a clan social organisation (and of course, for me as you can see my answer, a clan organisation will do all its possible to no let a poor become rich . Because... if anyone can become rich just with one fight, who will work for the rich ?).

Of course if it is an adventurer without boss/contract, or a bandit without ... boss/contract, it is different. In both cases, a very poor adventurer / bandit may become a richer adventurer  / bandit but without any clan's help / law to protect from the family / clan / temple revenge or even local authorities appreciating to "defraud" the strangers

 

 

Oh, very very true!

I was thinking in defence of the stead, as part of a fyrd.

However, no reason why one couldn't go along as part of a 'sanctioned' raid (although, without better weapons, less likely unless someone decided either numbers were more important, or the stickpicker knew something they didn't).

 

You've made me consider something else... killing and looting a bandit! (not that it's likely to help much :p)

[Manunancy]

I would expect thetenants and other peoples who do'nt get hides of land from the clan to still have several rights to make a living outside their work :

* access to common woodlands and the like (a stickpicker has to pick his sticks from somewhere)

* right to do some gardening on plots leftover from clan distribution (including those too small and the lke). Somewhat like what went in the USSR who gave some small private plots (which ended up making a surprising big contribution as collecitvized agriculure didn't work very well)

[Squaredeal Sten]

4 hours ago, Manunancy said:

I would expect thetenants and other peoples who do'nt get hides of land from the clan to still have several rights to make a living outside their work :

* access to common woodlands and the like (a stickpicker has to pick his sticks from somewhere)

* right to do some gardening on plots leftover from clan distribution (including those too small and the lke). Somewhat like what went in the USSR who gave some small private plots (which ended up making a surprising big contribution as collecitvized agriculure didn't work very well)

I agree completely on the first one.

I am not sure there will be any "left over " from clan land distribution, except common woods and maybe some grazing.  

But the stickpicker should also be a day laborer,  during heavy periods like harvest.

The. Trick will be for him to advance to tenant farmer.  That is when he gets a garden plot and can run a few sheep and pigs. And a small house or shack.   Even if he spends most of his time working for the primary landholder, he is no longer destitute.  And I expect many tenant farmers will in fact be laborers in someone else's fields, herders of someone else's cattle. Dependent on that primary lzndholder.  Probably paid for it too. At least a grain ration, maybe not money.

[M Helsdon]

In the ancient world, tenants worked land in two different relationships with the landowner:

• A fixed annual payment to be made. If the harvest was poor the tenant could be pushed into debt because they might not be able to make the payment; if the harvest was good, the tenant enjoyed the excess. Debt often led to people becoming debt slaves.
• A percentage payment to be made according to the harvest. Less risk for the tenant if the harvest was poor, but less profit if the harvest was good.

The tenant could also indulge in other activities such as 'cottage industries' and hunting.

[Akhôrahil]

5 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

In the ancient world, tenants worked land in two different relationships with the landowner:

• A fixed annual payment to be made. If the harvest was poor the tenant could be pushed into debt because they might not be able to make the payment; if the harvest was good, the tenant enjoyed the excess. Debt often led to people becoming debt slaves.
• A percentage payment to be made according to the harvest. Less risk for the tenant if the harvest was poor, but less profit if the harvest was good.

The tenant could also indulge in other activities such as 'cottage industries' and hunting.

We know from the rules how this works in Dragon Pass - "unless the owner is the herder (or has adolescent children), the owner needs a tenant herder, who traditionally gets half the surplus (and none of the losses if there is a failure or fumble with the Manage Household skill)." 

So the landowner gets a percentage, but is on the hook for his own managerial screwups. It also suggests that only the surplus is taxed, which is a bit hard to interpret, but perhaps means that it's the net income and not the gross that's taxed? 

This means that it's still a good idea to provide Bless Crops for your tenants (if at a lower rate than doing it for yourself).

Edited July 10, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[DrGoth]

On 7/10/2023 at 6:39 AM, Akhôrahil said:

Ah, so tenant farmers still count as semi-free? In that case, I'm a little confused about the numbers from this thread (about 17%) and the sample clan in the RQG rulebook (about 40%), unless that clan is non-representative?

I'm taking what Jeff says here as the overall rule.