Spirit combat question

[ChrisWentWhere]

Just looking at the Q & A about Spirit Combat. 

I can see this statement:

"If a spirit wishes to attack a corporeal being, the spirit makes itself visible in the Middle World the melee round prior to its first attack."

But also this statement:

"Can Charlie strike Spit the spirit (that is in spirit combat with Alice) with the True Sworded broadsword?

If the GM has said that Charlie can see the spirit, and Charlie has declared his action in Statement of Intent."

So am I correct in thinking then that a spirit (or maybe just some spirits?) can just make itself visible to the corporeal being it is attacking, so others cannot attack it? 

Cheers

[Squaredeal Sten]

As I understand it. when the spirit manifests in the Midfke World it is visible to everyone. not just its intended victim.

When the spirit actually does attack, it will englobe the victim, so as I interpret that, third parties attacking that spirit with a magic weapon (such as a sword with Bladesharp on it) are striking into melee with all the risks that iindicates.

Because of this. the victim's friends will likely choose to attack the sprit magically, for instance with the Disruption spell.

[Scotty]

1 hour ago, ChrisWentWhere said:

So am I correct in thinking then that a spirit (or maybe just some spirits?) can just make itself visible to the corporeal being it is attacking, so others cannot attack it? 

No, it's visible to everyone who is looking. However depending on the situation, others may not be in a position to see it - facing the other way, round a corner, etc.

1 minute ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

When the spirit actually does attack, it will englobe the victim, so as I interpret that, third parties attacking that spirit with a magic weapon (such as a sword with Bladesharp on it) are striking into melee with all the risks that indicates.

There's no englobing unless that's its method of attack (per spirit ability), they are just close. Remember that a magic weapon attack is a spirit combat attack (not melee) and fumbles are treated using the the spirit combat fumble table (RQG 370).

[ChrisWentWhere]

Aha got it, thanks - pretty obvious really!  

[ChrisWentWhere]

That double damaging Humakti Greatsword Gift is the bane of my GMing life.  

[Rodney Dangerduck]

7 minutes ago, ChrisWentWhere said:

That double damaging Humakti Greatsword Gift is the bane of my GMing life.  

We let the spirit use their Spirit Combat skill to attempt to Dodge.  Not sure if that is correct, but otherwise they have no chance.

[g33k]

17 minutes ago, Scotty said:

No, it's visible to everyone who is looking. However depending on the situation, others may not be in a position to see it - facing the other way, round a corner, etc.

...

In other words, these would be normal limitations on being "engaged," if I understand correctly?

So -- realizing this may be something of a corner-case -- what if someone can't see the spirit because of some other circumstance... total darkness, magically-induced blindness, etc (where they can (with penalties) try to attack ordinary physical-but-unseen targets)?

In other words:  is there something "spirit-y" going on, where seeing is a necessary precondition?
Or would we the same as if we were attacking any other unseen target?

 

[Squaredeal Sten]

3 hours ago, g33k said:

In other words, these would be normal limitations on being "engaged," if I understand correctly?

So -- realizing this may be something of a corner-case -- what if someone can't see the spirit because of some other circumstance... total darkness, magically-induced blindness, etc (where they can (with penalties) try to attack ordinary physical-but-unseen targets)?

In other words:  is there something "spirit-y" going on, where seeing is a necessary precondition?
Or would we the same as if we were attacking any other unseen target?

 

Assuming this is in the Middle World and not the spirit plane:  Then here are my thoughts:

I doubt that spirit combat requires visibility in cases where the disembodied spirit is attacking someone who is corporate.  It was the spirit's choice to close, now the spirit is ripping at your soul.  You are in spirit combat and can resist, you don't need to see either.  Spirits can evidently perceive your soul directly, they don't have or need eyes unless their description says otherwise.

Where I would say total darkness makes a difference is the spirit would not  be seen as it manifests in SR12 of the arrival round.  So most Adventurers should be oblivious to it until it strikes in the second round of the encounter.  They will carry on with their statements  of intent until they find themselves in spirit combat.  Unless they have magic up that will let them see the spirit.  So if person A is attacked their friends B and C have no clue they should be involved and won't be casting Disruption or Distraction  until after A screams.  The GM can make this a real horror show.  In principle it is no worse than fighting trolls in the dark.  Does anyone have an Ignite spell?

This all assumes that the spirit does not give off light when it manifests.  Fire elementals are an obvious exception, but they also burn you instead of using spirit combat.  If the GM rules that some particular spirit glows then that is another merciful exception.  Do your ghosts glow in the dark? YGMV.  

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling / typing

[g33k]

There is also the 3rd-party question.
I think someone who is attacked by the spirit can always use Spirit Combat to defend themselves.

OP was specifically citing a situation with a 3rd party trying to attack the spirit.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

6 minutes ago, g33k said:

someone who is attacked by the spirit can always use Spirit Combat to defend themselves.

They can also always use their weapon.

[g33k]

37 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

They can also always use their weapon.

10 hours ago, Scotty said:

... Remember that a magic weapon attack is a spirit combat attack (not melee) and fumbles are treated using the the spirit combat fumble table (RQG 370).

I need to go re-read the rules about engaging with spirits...

[ChrisWentWhere]

So having run the spirit combat, the Humakti basically destroyed all the spirits very quickly and left the Assistant Shaman thinking ‘ok so wtf am I doing here’.

It was causing about 20 points of damage every hit which is basically enough to take out even powerful spirits. 

Several were disease spirits. I’m wondering: would this count as driving off the spirit to gain 1D3 power. My feeling is that only get this if it through Spirit Combat.

 

[Godlearner]

9 hours ago, ChrisWentWhere said:

So having run the spirit combat, the Humakti basically destroyed all the spirits very quickly and left the Assistant Shaman thinking ‘ok so wtf am I doing here’.

... and that is why we ignore this rule and not allow magic and weapons to effect spirits, unless they are specifically described as spirit affecting (in which case they usually do nothing to physical targets)

[ChrisWentWhere]

1 hour ago, Godlearner said:

... and that is why we ignore this rule and not allow magic and weapons to effect spirits, unless they are specifically described as spirit affecting (in which case they usually do nothing to physical targets)

Hmmm, bit tricky now. That cat’s out of the bag. 

[Jens]

10 hours ago, ChrisWentWhere said:

It was causing about 20 points of damage every hit

How are they doing 20 points per hit? Truesword on a Broadsword does 1d8+1 damage to a spirit; normal weapon damage, damage bonus, and spirit magic bonuses like Bladesharp do not apply. See https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/chaosium/runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-qa-by-chapter/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-chapter-16-spirits-the-spirit-world/ for details.

Also make sure you’re comparing successes on the Spirit Combat table- if the Humakti succeeds on their attack roll but the spirit succeeds on their spirit combat roll, no damage is done. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by Jens

[ChrisWentWhere]

He has a Greatsword, which has the ‘double damage after armour’ Gift (which is frankly broken in my opinion, it just destroys everything) I read through the well of Daliath discussion and it says that while the weapon damage does not affect it any magical damage does. So if Truesword is cast it does 2D8, this is then doubled due to the gift. So average 16 points. He has a tendency to roll well as well. He’s just a lucky bastard. 

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, ChrisWentWhere said:

He has a Greatsword, which has the ‘double damage after armour’ Gift (which is frankly broken in my opinion, it just destroys everything) I read through the well of Daliath discussion and it says that while the weapon damage does not affect it any magical damage does. So if Truesword is cast it does 2D8, this is then doubled due to the gift. So average 16 points. He has a tendency to roll well as well. He’s just a lucky bastard. 

Humakti are the absolute best in spirit combat for these reasons, far better than shamans. The flexibility is low, but as long as the spirit is there and fighting, it will get absolutely shredded. 

Add an enchanted metal sword, and the damage is doubled again. Natural skill over 100% and much better than the spirit(s)? Split the attack for even more.

Edited October 14, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Jens]

3 hours ago, ChrisWentWhere said:

He has a Greatsword, which has the ‘double damage after armour’ Gift

As a simple fix, you could house rule this only applies to physical targets, not spirits.

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

Natural skill over 100% and much better than the spirit(s)? Split the attack for even more.

This works in physical combat, where even a parried blow can smash through, but not in spirit combat where if you both succeed, no damage is done. There's no penalty to multiple spirit combat defence rolls, unlike parries, so better to reduce their skill than try twice at a lower chance (e.g. 120% vs 80% becomes 100 vs 60, much better than 2x 60 vs 80).

Edited October 14, 2023 by Jens

[Akhôrahil]

1 minute ago, Jens said:

This works in physical combat, where even a parried blow can smash through, but not in spirit combat where if you both succeed, no damage is done.

This is correct, but as a Humakti, you may have enough of a skill advantage to both split the attack and drop the opponent’s Spirit Combat down to 0, at least if you’re running a decently-sized Sword Trance.

[Godlearner]

19 hours ago, ChrisWentWhere said:

He has a Greatsword, which has the ‘double damage after armour’ Gift (which is frankly broken in my opinion, it just destroys everything) I read through the well of Daliath discussion and it says that while the weapon damage does not affect it any magical damage does. So if Truesword is cast it does 2D8, this is then doubled due to the gift. So average 16 points. He has a tendency to roll well as well. He’s just a lucky bastard. 

The fact that Humakti geases are now random and have been lessened in their severaty is the problem. Under the old rules the geas was "accept no magical healing at all" which prevented most PCs from taking it.

I would also start giving spirits Dismiss Magic, Dullblade, Spirit Screen, etc spells.

 

[Runeblogger]

Since you are attacking a spirit only with the magic on your weapon, not really your weapon, you could rule the attack is half physical half magical, and so houserule that your attack skill in that particular case is the average of your weapon skill and your spirit combat skill. Just an idea! 😉

[Scotty]

On 10/15/2023 at 12:53 AM, Akhôrahil said:

This is correct, but as a Humakti, you may have enough of a skill advantage to both split the attack and drop the opponent’s Spirit Combat down to 0, at least if you’re running a decently-sized Sword Trance.

Remember that this is all spirit combat, the Humakti isn't using their sword skill, but their spirit combat. I would allow their sword skill as an augment though. The higher spirit combat over 100% drops the lower, and there are no split attacks.

[Jens]

19 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Remember that this is all spirit combat, the Humakti isn't using their sword skill, but their spirit combat.

That seems to be contradicted by both the core rules- "The physical attack is resolved normally, but opposed by the spirit’s Spirit Combat skill." and the Well clarification- "The player rolls the adventurers relevant weapon ability (with augments, magical bonuses, etc) and checks the result using that score for critical, special, success, fail, miss, fumble. If the adventurers weapon ability or the spirit’s Spirit Combat score is over 100%, reductions occur as normal." (bold added for emphasis)

Edited October 16, 2023 by Jens

[Scotty]

45 minutes ago, Jens said:

That seems to be contradicted by both the core rules- "The physical attack is resolved normally, but opposed by the spirit’s Spirit Combat skill." and the Well clarification- "The player rolls the adventurers relevant weapon ability (with augments, magical bonuses, etc) and checks the result using that score for critical, special, success, fail, miss, fumble. If the adventurers weapon ability or the spirit’s Spirit Combat score is over 100%, reductions occur as normal." (bold added for emphasis)

Apologies, this section hasn't had the rules updated, it's all spirit combat. I will review it

 

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

Apologies, this section hasn't had the rules updated, it's all spirit combat. I will review it

This seems like a really good change, especially if it means that Spirit Combat with weapons just means that you make a single Spirit Combat roll at SR12 but can use your weapon for damage. It also makes Spirit Combat a lot nastier for non-Shamans, which can only be a good thing (it niche-protects shamans as being the best at Spirit Combat, which wasn’t always the case before).

RAW is clearly that you attack with weapon skill, as noted above. IMO this has a bad outcome, so I’m all for it getting changed.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Akhôrahil