How real is the Invisible God?

[bronze]

Is the Invisible God real?

Even if it is real, if mystery predates law and reason, it can't be all-powerful. Infinity rune is owned by Arachne Solara, and it dosen't even have a Mastery rune. The ultimate creator and prime mover of cosmos who can't even master itself, and less infinite than enforcer of the Cosmic Compromise? 

Also, in the numeric order of the Cults, the Invisible God is penultimate, located below the Horned God and followed only by the Lunar Gods. Wondering whether it does intimate that the Invisible God is the lastest god to come, or at least be revealed, in Time. Considering mystery predates and hold precedence over law and reason, perhaps the former might be closer to the truth. 

Edited October 19, 2023 by bronze

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, bronze said:

Is the Invisible God real?

Yes.

1 hour ago, bronze said:

Even if it is real, if mystery predates law and reason, it can't be all-powerful. Infinity rune is owned by Arachne Solara, and it dosen't even have a Mastery rune. The ultimate creator and prime mover of cosmos who can't even master itself, and less infinite than enforcer of the Cosmic Compromsie? 

Arachne Solara didn't exist at the time the Invisible God made the Cosmos.  What she has now is merely a measure of her power *within* the Cosmos whereas the Invisible God is before and beyond that.

 

[Richard S.]

The invisible god is just as real and powerful as the cosmic egg, primal plasma, cosmic dragon, void, etc. It predates the cosmos and gives no appreciable magic, but it has been communicated with, and it did create the cosmos (or at least created it to the same extent the other mentioned concepts did). Within time, its power is omnipresent in the form of basic natural law and the fundamentals of sorcery.

From a certain perspective, you might say that part of Arachne Solara's job as the goddess of nature is merely upholding the Invisible God's laws.

[John Biles]

The Invisible God *made* the runes, his believers believe.  And he's the font of sorcery, an entire category of magic.

So from their point of view, all those other gods are just his creations.

 

[mfbrandi]

10 hours ago, bronze said:

Is the Invisible God real?

The IG is what is real, Cosmos — hence — and the Devil (pick one) is what is not, Chaos/the Void — . The IG is not a power in the universe, the IG is the universe. Looking for the IG (or the Devil) in the universe is a mistake, that is why the IG is “invisible.” Is Cosmos master of itself? What would that even mean?

Or that may be the take of the fashionable pantheist-about-town. There is no need for all the myths to cohere into a model of reality we can build from Meccano.

[bronze]

On 10/18/2023 at 8:43 PM, mfbrandi said:

The IG is what is real, Cosmos — hence — and the Devil (pick one) is what is not, Chaos/the Void — . The IG is not a power in the universe, the IG is the universe. Looking for the IG (or the Devil) in the universe is a mistake, that is why the IG is “invisible.” Is Cosmos master of itself? What would that even mean?

Or that may be the take of the fashionable pantheist-about-town. There is no need for all the myths to cohere into a model of reality we can build from Meccano.

Like this explanation the most. But if the Invisible God and Devil are the universe, why they possess fewer Inifnity rune than Arachne Solara and how they can be reached and communicated as if they are anthropologized principels of the cosmos (i.e. your normal greater gods)? 

And if the Devil is the cosmos, how the it could have been killed and devoured? 

If mystery predates law and reason, revealed and imparted by the Invisible God, dosen't it mean theistic gods are stronger, more firmly embedded in the structure of the universe, or something of that line? How could the Creator of the universe have been denied so fundamentally, so comprehensively? 

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, bronze said:

how they can be reached and communicated

Through the gods or dragons that emanated from or were created by them. Though Zzabur would likely say that he knows how to do so.

 

[John Biles]

2 hours ago, bronze said:

Like this explanation the most. But if the Invisible God and Devil are the universe, why they possess fewer Inifnity rune than Arachne Solara and how they can be reached and communicated as if they are anthropologized principels of the cosmos (i.e. your normal greater gods)? 

And if the Devil is the cosmos, how the it could have been killed and devoured? 

If mystery predates law and reason, revealed and imparted by the Invisible God, dosen't it mean theistic gods are stronger, more firmly embedded in the structure of the universe, or something of that line? How could the Creator of the universe have been denied so fundamentally, so comprehensively? 

In the Western cosmology, the Invisible God literally made the runes, including the infinity rune.  They're all his flunkies.  The theistic gods which are the shadows the runes cast on the walls of the universe do what he intended them to do.  He can make a super-duper-infinity rune if he finds it useful.

His creations can think they're defying him, but in the end, he's the boss.

 

[mfbrandi]

12 hours ago, bronze said:

if the Invisible God and Devil are the universe, … how they can be reached and communicated as if they are … of the cosmos (i.e. your normal greater gods)? [emphases mine]

• For present purposes, the Devil is not to be thought of as Cosmos or of Cosmos — think of the Devil as the empty set (i.e. {} or ∅), and if you are an atheist, think of the IG as the universal set. (There are other tales to be told of the Devil in which it is — or is stitched right through — the world of Time, but at least some Westerners will reject them. Although the set-theoretical sorcerers will smirk at this confident rejection.)
   
• For present purposes, think of the IG and the Devil as uncontactable — you cannot communicate with them, and you get sorcerous powers by understanding Cosmos, not begging favours from it or its owner or agent; IIRC, Jeff has it that the big guns of Chaos (the Devil candidates) — Ragnaglar, Kajabor, & Wakboth — are dead or uncontactable “at the moment;” IMHO, there are good reasons why this should be the case.
   
• Reflective and wise monotheists won’t play “my dad is bigger than your dad” with the polytheists — the correct way to place yourself in the hands of the IG is to shift for yourself (don’t pray and wait, put the hours in at the lab; don’t clasp your hands in prayer, grab the steering wheel), then when you succeed, you humbly acknowledge that it was the IG’s will (and the same if you fail, but it is up to you to try).

This is not a lecture on Malkioni orthodoxy, and the polytheists will scoff at it, but if you think of the IG as the god of the philosophers — the ones that haven’t taken the Journey to the East, at least — you won’t go far wrong. Gloranthas can and should vary — in this, as in all else.

[mfbrandi]

13 hours ago, bronze said:

Why do they possess fewer Infinity runes than Arachne Solara?

Runic associations are perhaps just representations we mortals make, and not facts we discover about the gods. Consider:

• Mallia is associated with the Runes of Death and Darkness, her foundations and heritage. Where she is worshipped by broos she also is associated with the Chaos Rune. — Cults of Terror Classic, p. 26

So does Mallia “possess” the Chaos rune or not? Is it just that some worshippers approach her through it? Is it just a mark on parchment?

[bronze]

13 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

• For present purposes, the Devil is not to be thought of as Cosmos or of Cosmos — think of the Devil as the empty set (i.e. {} or ∅), and if you are an atheist, think of the IG as the universal set. (There are other tales to be told of the Devil in which it is — or is stitched right through — the world of Time, but at least some Westerners will reject them. Although the set-theoretical sorcerers will smirk at this confident rejection.)
   
• For present purposes, think of the IG and the Devil as uncontactable — you cannot communicate with them, and you get sorcerous powers by understanding Cosmos, not begging favours from it or its owner or agent; IIRC, Jeff has it that the big guns of Chaos (the Devil candidates) — Ragnaglar, Kajabor, & Wakboth — are dead or uncontactable “at the moment;” IMHO, there are good reasons why this should be the case.
   
• Reflective and wise monotheists won’t play “my dad is bigger than your dad” with the polytheists — the correct way to place yourself in the hands of the IG is to shift for yourself (don’t pray and wait, put the hours in at the lab; don’t clasp your hands in prayer, grab the steering wheel), then when you succeed, you humbly acknowledge that it was the IG’s will (and the same if you fail, but it is up to you to try).

This is not a lecture on Malkioni orthodoxy, and the polytheists will scoff at it, but if you think of the IG as the god of the philosophers — the ones that haven’t taken the Journey to the East, at least — you won’t go far wrong. Gloranthas can and should vary — in this, as in all else.

Thank you so much for elucidation. I wonder how Westerners rationalize and explain precedence of mystery over law and reason. Why the God of Law and Reason would have allowed such blasphemy? Wouldn't it present a dilemma? The Westerners have been compared with the ancient Greek and Indian logicians. They are rational philosophers thrown into a world of myth and magic. The ideal world for the Humanists will be our Earth, and Glorantha is their worst nightmare manifested.

Edited October 20, 2023 by bronze

[Sir_Godspeed]

On 10/21/2023 at 12:52 AM, bronze said:

Thank you so much for elucidation. I wonder how Westerners rationalize and explain precedence of mystery over law and reason. Why the God of Law and Reason would have allowed such blasphemy? Wouldn't it present a dilemma? The Westerners have been compared with the ancient Greek and Indian logicians. They are rational philosophers thrown into a world of myth and magic. The ideal world for the Humanists will be our Earth, and Glorantha is their worst nightmare manifested.

I would think about where the statement about mystery preceding logic comes from. I'm not personally aware exactly where it's from, but I suspect it's not neutral. 

As for contacting the Invisible God and its realness. This is a bit of personal conjecture, but maybe it might fill in some blanks:
The Malkioni and the Dwarves have a very similar worldview in various areas. Especially the Brithini. IMG the ancient westerners adopted Mostali beliefs/worldviews of the Cosmos as the World Machine/Mostal and anthropomorphized it to become a semi-personal "god". 

Then we have Malkion, who in Revealed Mythologies is described through various stages of subgradients or emanations that go from the fully abstract and transcendent (Ferbrith, aka Malkion the Creator) to the fully personal and anthropomorphic (Elmalkion, Malkion the Sacrifice), with various stages inbetween paralleling the different layers of primeval and secondary gods or generations of gods we see in polytheism. 

IMHO the Invisible God isn't a "dude" in the same way as arguably Orlanth is. Orlanth is a locus or pattern that relates to certain narrative events and certain aspects of the cosmos' matter and energy. The Invisible God is a scale above that, like moving up a logarithmic level. Potentially, this might just make the IG a different take on Mostal/The World Engine, Cosmic Dragon and the Goddess Glorantha, (ie. a sort of pantheism) or it might be an attempt to comprehend the level above THAT (arguably parralleling the Ouroboros from a draconic perspective). OR it is, through Malkion, also an attempt to trace the scales and levels all the way from the super-cosmic down to the personally particular, which we also see a parallel of in the Draconic worldview (from Ouroboros down to the individual dragons and dragonnewts) or even in theism (ie. from whatever origin they postulate down through generations of gods procreating down to mortals). 

Maybe this is a bad analogy, but it is a bit like asking of New York City is real. Well, it's not real in the same sense that an individual brownstone building in Queens is. It doesn't have a roof or walls, but in its own sense, it is real.

[soltakss]

On 10/18/2023 at 1:27 AM, bronze said:

Is the Invisible God real?

Yes.

On 10/18/2023 at 1:27 AM, bronze said:

Even if it is real, if mystery predates law and reason, it can't be all-powerful.

Who says that it is all-powerful? Malkiioni and Brithini certainly don't.

On 10/18/2023 at 1:27 AM, bronze said:

Infinity rune is owned by Arachne Solara, and it dosen't even have a Mastery rune. The ultimate creator and prime mover of cosmos who can't even master itself, and less infinite than enforcer of the Cosmic Compromise? 

It owns the Law Rune, I think, but I haven't checked. It also has the Magic and Infinity Rune. Not all powerful deities own multiple Runes.

On 10/18/2023 at 1:27 AM, bronze said:

Also, in the numeric order of the Cults, the Invisible God is penultimate, located below the Horned God and followed only by the Lunar Gods. Wondering whether it does intimate that the Invisible God is the lastest god to come, or at least be revealed, in Time. Considering mystery predates and hold precedence over law and reason, perhaps the former might be closer to the truth. 

Is this the order of publication of the Cults books? Chaosium have their own reasons for the order that the books come out. It certainly isn't due to the order that the Deities appeared in Glorantha, otherwise Darkness would have been the first to be published.

[Cassius]

3 hours ago, soltakss said:

It owns the Law Rune, I think, but I haven't checked.

It still does (p. 18 of the Mythology book).