The difference between Lantern and Light, which is better?

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

Now Lantern is no longer a variable spell, what is the point[sic]? Yes it has a slightly larger area of effect, but it doesn't illuminate a whole circle [is the other half just normal light?], meaning you have to faf to do anything in it, unless the caster is at the back.

Anyone got any sensible fixes to this almost duplicating 'light' spell?

Edited November 13, 2023 by Orlanthatemyhamster

[Malin]

I always saw it as a way not to blind everyone behind you too. The direction helps with keeping night vision somewhat intact. Not a massive difference, but this is how I use it in game:

Light: Easily cast on things like a tree branch, an enemy's shirt, the tip of a long spear held up high and so on. Very good for spreading ambient light in battle, makes it easy to pick out enemies while still keeping somewhat hidden in the shadows. More like a lamp post, it needs to be high not to blind people and rob them of night vision.

Lantern: The big flashlight. Good to cast on the shield of the person who walks first in a tunnel, making sure everyone behind them is not blinded. Good for traveling, underground, and to make it less easy to spot from behind. Good to travel with, like the headlights of a car.

(guess who have spent way too much time out in the dark swedish coutryside/forests and who is running a campaign with Yelmalians...)

Edited November 13, 2023 by Malin

[Scotty]

1 hour ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

Now Lantern is no longer a variable spell, what is the point[sic]? Yes it has a slightly larger area of effect, but it doesn't illuminate a whole circle [is the other half just normal light?], meaning you have to faf to do anything in it, unless the caster is at the back.

Anyone got any sensible fixes to this almost duplicating 'light' spell?

Lantern is a Yelmalio cult special, that is cheaper (15L as it's half price to initiates vs 50L) with a slightly larger radius (12 vs 10m) and pretty much designed for shields. Light is a point of light, that everyone else has to use.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

59 minutes ago, Malin said:

Lantern: The big flashlight. Good to cast on the shield of the person who walks first in a tunnel, making sure everyone behind them is not blinded.

1. While this is possibly true and realistic, I have never heard of PCs getting "blinded" by a basic Light spell, in RQ, D&D, or any other FRP system.
2. One could just cast a Light spell on a bauble on the front of a shield to get the same exact effect.

Lantern is pointless, worse than Light because it is much less flexible - you can't cast it on a rock or arrow to look ahead.  It is yet another example (see the Farsee thread https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/20010-farsee-the-gift-and-the-spell-question/) of Chaosium not caring about Yelmalio as a playable PC cult.

 

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

2 hours ago, Malin said:

I always saw it as a way not to blind everyone behind you too. The direction helps with keeping night vision somewhat intact. Not a massive difference, but this is how I use it in game:

Light: Easily cast on things like a tree branch, an enemy's shirt, the tip of a long spear held up high and so on. Very good for spreading ambient light in battle, makes it easy to pick out enemies while still keeping somewhat hidden in the shadows. More like a lamp post, it needs to be high not to blind people and rob them of night vision.

Lantern: The big flashlight. Good to cast on the shield of the person who walks first in a tunnel, making sure everyone behind them is not blinded. Good for traveling, underground, and to make it less easy to spot from behind. Good to travel with, like the headlights of a car.

(guess who have spent way too much time out in the dark swedish coutryside/forests and who is running a campaign with Yelmalians...)

I don't think it is that strong, in fact it is the same strength as a Light spell, so the only difference is it is 180 degrees only and a slight increase in distance. Sunbright it ain't.

People behind will still see the light in front of them.

Edited November 13, 2023 by Orlanthatemyhamster

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

2 hours ago, Scotty said:

Lantern is a Yelmalio cult special, that is cheaper (15L as it's half price to initiates vs 50L) with a slightly larger radius (12 vs 10m) and pretty much designed for shields. Light is a point of light, that everyone else has to use.

So you can't cast a light spell on the boss of a shield and have the same effect? Isn't every surface made up of 'points'?

Besides the obvious, I'm not sure what the difference between a globe and half a globe of light is, please enlighten me?

The price thing really is immaterial for players I think and really seems unfathomable for a cult spell, do the spirits demand more sacrifice, does it take less time to teach, are there more spirits with it so they are easier to 'catch'? It seems odd that a specialist spell is cheaper.
 

[Malin]

Look. I tend to focus a lot on how things actually feel in the world and not just on specific game effects in the rule book (because such a rule book would be a nightmare). Thus, I let things like a person with cat's eye not get negative modifiers on scan in bad light, light cast in certain ways being likelier to blind or reveal people than cast in other ways (for example, casting it on enemies gives a better chance of not being the biggest target for missile fire during a night fight) and so on. I am aware that this is not specified in the rules, it is just my interpretation of how certain spells differ from each other. I have way too many homebrewed rules for shit like that, just because I like wilderness adventures to feel like they are wilderness adventures.

EDIT: I don't feel that the Yelmalian in my campaign is underpowered compared to the Babeester Gor or Orlanthi.

EDIT: The Farsee thing will annoy me forever though...

Edited November 13, 2023 by Malin

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

... and really seems unfathomable for a cult spell, do the spirits demand more sacrifice, does it take less time to teach, are there more spirits with it so they are easier to 'catch'? It seems odd that a specialist spell is cheaper.

It's not a "free market" situation.
Lantern is cheaper because Yelmalio (the god or the cult (or both; ygmv) want it to be cheaper.

[Ian Absentia]

6 hours ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

...meaning you have to faf to do anything in it, unless the caster is at the back.

As anyone who's tried to walk at night ahead of someone holding a lantern or flashlight can tell you, you've effectively described a Cast Shadow spell.

!i!

[Richard S.]

AFAIK, from what designers have said on this board, the current Yelmalio list is:

Common: All (Command Cult Spirit, Dismiss Magic, Divination, Extension, Find Enemy, Heal Wound, Multispell, Sanctify, Soul Sight, Spirit Block, Summon Cult Spirit, Warding).

Special: Catseye, Cloud Clear, Command Hawk, Sunbright.

Enchantments: Ban, Binding Enchantment, Enchant Gold, Enchant Iron, Magic Point Enchantment, Matrix Creation, Spirit Armor Enchantment.

Associate: Arrow of Light (Polaris, to Kargzant), Bless Crops (Ernalda), Clear Sight (Sun Hawk), Command Horse (Hyalor), Heal Body (Aldrya), Shield (Yelm; Orlanth, to Elmal), Speak With Birds (Vrimak), Sunspear (Yelm, one-use, high priests only).

None of his subcults gave Rune magic in the past, and I doubt they do now.

Yelnora is an associate but doesn't give any Rune spells. Her initiates have some obligation to serve or protect the Sun Dome though.

A few years ago Jeff was apparently debating whether Sandy was right to get rid of Yelmalio's fire elementals, and mentioned that they would probably be associated from Yelm. No further word on where the decision landed though.

All-in-all, I don't think it's a bad-sized list, and there's definitely things in there that are useful to an adventurer. If his personal specials don't strike your fancy then that just means more RP saved to pump into more generally useful stuff like Heal Wound, Heal Body, Shield, etc. This is fully off topic now though.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Richard S.

[Jens]

As for Lantern, I’ve always house ruled that it lasts for an hour in order to make it a more useful alternative to Light. 

[Richard S.]

2 hours ago, Jens said:

As for Lantern, I’ve always house ruled that it lasts for an hour in order to make it a more useful alternative to Light. 

The RQ2 Lantern was apparently variable, with each point increasing the duration by 120 seconds. I think a full hour for one point might be a bit much, but extended duration definitely seems like a good change.

[metcalph]

My modest Lantern proposal. 

It's the first step in a mystical quest to become the Last Light (cf Arinsor Clearmind "[...]. was so devoted to Yelmalio that he shone with an internal glow during the darkest nights" Pavis: Threshold to Danger p51) . Unfortunately all teachers of it were conscripted by Sheng Seleris for his wars and the full teaching has been lost.  

Now to do the Farsee...

[Malin]

34 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

The RQ2 Lantern was apparently variable, with each point increasing the duration by 120 seconds

Isn't this exactly like recasting the spell though? Apart from not having to make the cast roll, which is rarely a big issue outside of combat.

[Richard S.]

7 minutes ago, Malin said:

Isn't this exactly like recasting the spell though? Apart from not having to make the cast roll, which is rarely a big issue outside of combat.

Kind of, though there was no casting roll in RQ2. You can't fight in melee and cast a spell in the same round though, so in long (>10 rounds) fights it has some value.

[Scotty]

Please stick to the subject The difference between Lantern and Light, which is better? Please start a new topic for the usual Yelmalio whinging.

[Scotty]

15 hours ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

So you can't cast a light spell on the boss of a shield and have the same effect? Isn't every surface made up of 'points'?

Yes, it will illuminate the area in front of the shield.

15 hours ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

Besides the obvious, I'm not sure what the difference between a globe and half a globe of light is, please enlighten me?

Lantern is directional, so on front of a shield is ideal. Light cast on the tip of an upright spear will illuminate all around. 

15 hours ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

The price thing really is immaterial for players I think and really seems unfathomable for a cult spell, do the spirits demand more sacrifice, does it take less time to teach, are there more spirits with it so they are easier to 'catch'? It seems odd that a specialist spell is cheaper.

It's part of the Founder of the Cult's, subcult Monrough. Pious Yelmalians will want to join this subcult, Those who know this spell always will wear a brass arm ring with the Fire Rune inlaid in gold to mark that they know the spell (as Cults of Prax Classic 55). 

Note that specialist spells are cheaper as they are usually discounted for initiates or free.

I also missed that Yelmalio initiates get Light at half price too, so: 15L vs 25L.

[g33k]

4 hours ago, Scotty said:

.... 

Note that specialist spells are cheaper as they are usually discounted for initiates or free.

I also missed that Yelmalio initiates get Light at half price too, so: 15L vs 25L.

I think My Glorantha May Vary here.  10L difference is pretty inconsequential; that's "starting character funding choices," so I think "Lantern" may be better as a free-to-Cult-members spell.

But there is also this:

22 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

...
One could just cast a Light spell on a bauble on the front of a shield to get the same exact effect.

Lantern is pointless, worse than Light because it is much less flexible - you can't cast it on a rock or arrow to look ahead ...

Given the superior utility of Light, I think MG may look to substantially-increase the utility of the CultSpecial spell you get from the Light That Lasted Through The Darkness.

Ideas off the top of my head (any one (not all) of):

• Resists/overcomes Darkness spells, Dismiss, etc as if it were Rune Magic (cast with Rune Points), instead of being Spirit Magic cast with Magic Points
• Duration is much longer... maybe Duration as per Rune Magic (but, as above, for MP instead of RP cost)?
• As the area is halved, double the range outward (20m vs Light's 10M or current-Lantern 12m)... or maybe more than double?

Other ideas...?  Note that -- with sufficient utility -- it becomes much less relevant to reduce the financial cost.

[g33k]

22 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

1. While this is possibly true and realistic, I have never heard of PCs getting "blinded" by a basic Light spell, in RQ, D&D, or any other FRP system.

It has been a long time since I D&D'ed, but I recall from the 70s/80's we always used to make the "Infravision" characters wait 5-10 minutes (after dowsing all the party's lights) before they could go scout effectively.

I don't recall if that was supported in the rules, or just our common-sense House Rule.

I have carried that forward to all my relevant RPG's.  I don't know if any of them address this in their respective RAW's (q.v. "common sense" (or your own phrase, "true and realistic")).  This follows very-directly on Chaosium's statement that they aren't trying to document & mechanize every little element of the game, and the GM (and table consensus) should regularly produce "rulings, not [rely upon] rules."

To the extent this is "true and realistic" (and not onerous as an element of at-the-table play) I will assert that's how RQ "should" be played.

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

On 11/14/2023 at 8:00 AM, Malin said:

Isn't this exactly like recasting the spell though? Apart from not having to make the cast roll, which is rarely a big issue outside of combat.

Harder to dispel, but that is poor compensation.

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

On 11/14/2023 at 8:10 AM, Richard S. said:

Kind of, though there was no casting roll in RQ2. You can't fight in melee and cast a spell in the same round though, so in long (>10 rounds) fights it has some value.

'No. Let's not go there, tis a silly rule.'

*Thanks to Pendrago...Monty Python for allowing me to slightly tweak that joke.