RuneQuest Spells and friendly fire esp Pow V Pow spells

[CatLark]

I have a question about the Pow vs Pow offensive spells and friendly fire. Do spells, rune or spirit magic, risk hitting your own allies; do they need a clear line of sight, or do they directly target only your declared target. This applies to both rune magic like lightning and perhaps sever spirit, as well as spirit magic spells like disruption. It also relates to spirit magic spells like demoralize, befuddle, sleep, and maybe slow.

Spirit magic says - "All targets, except voluntary ones, resist spells cast at them and need to be overcome (POW vs. POW)" - "Magic points are the quantity of life energy an adventurer spends when casting spells" "To cast a spirit magic spell, the caster concentrates their will and alters the spiritual energy currents to create an effect." To me this means they are cast on a target, regardless of if there are other people in the way. disruption, slow, befuddle, demoralize.

With rune magic - especially - "When an adventurer casts Rune magic, the caster acts as the deity. The caster imitates the deeds of the deity and thereby evokes the deity’s power." I feel the same - your are becoming an aspect of the deity, selecting a target of the effect - be it lightening or sever spirit.

lightning and disruption spells in thse more offence-oriented spells, since they target the creature you are attacking, do you need a clear line of sight, or is it like D&D and you risk hitting your own party - ti doesn't talk about a cone of effect or a line, you are calling lightning from a deity. Since Rune Magic goes off 1st, and it is a Pow V Pow role - I assumed it couldn't hit those in the way - it comes from the gods... I haven't worried much, but we had some troops assisting us who began marching up in the foe pretty fast. I was asked to move to a clear line of site before getting a lightning blast on a spirit creature, and a lucky special Pow vs Pow roll on a double lightning spell. 

Similar question about disruption? Can I use disruption, if we are in a narrow corridor, and I am behind my comrades who are engaged in melee, I can't easily use my bow, but can I safely use Disruption - as it is Pow v Pow targeting a specific foe? same question with the less offence-type of spirit magic such as slow, befuddle, demoralize & sleep. 

Thanks.

I tried searching for the answer 1st

[Scotty]

Great questions.

On 12/13/2023 at 4:32 PM, CatLark said:

Do spells, rune or spirit magic, risk hitting your own allies; do they need a clear line of sight, or do they directly target only your declared target. This applies to both rune magic like lightning and perhaps sever spirit, as well as spirit magic spells like disruption. It also relates to spirit magic spells like demoralize, befuddle, sleep, and maybe slow.

There are no specific rules covering this (there's no spell fumble table). Generally line of sight is assumed, if not using miniatures. If you are using them, the GM will adjudicated if the spell target is clearly visible.

On 12/13/2023 at 4:32 PM, CatLark said:

Spirit magic says - "All targets, except voluntary ones, resist spells cast at them and need to be overcome (POW vs. POW)" - "Magic points are the quantity of life energy an adventurer spends when casting spells" "To cast a spirit magic spell, the caster concentrates their will and alters the spiritual energy currents to create an effect." To me this means they are cast on a target, regardless of if there are other people in the way. disruption, slow, befuddle, demoralize.

Yes, but if you can't see the target, you may not be able to focus on it. Most GMs is would not allow an adventurer to cast disruption across a room full of people to hit someone on the other side, except for MGF (Maximum Game Fun - RQG page 6).

On 12/13/2023 at 4:32 PM, CatLark said:

With rune magic - especially - "When an adventurer casts Rune magic, the caster acts as the deity. The caster imitates the deeds of the deity and thereby evokes the deity’s power." I feel the same - your are becoming an aspect of the deity, selecting a target of the effect - be it lightening or sever spirit.

As above. You need to be able to identify the target would be my only requirement at the table:

Player: My adventurer casts sever spirit at at Bob.

GM: Where's Bob

Player: He's in that battle over there

GM: I suggest you move in so you can clearly see him or you can't cast the spell.

Player: But I know he's in there even though I can't see him clearly and it's within the 160m range of the spell.

GM: Please move closer...

On 12/13/2023 at 4:32 PM, CatLark said:

lightning and disruption spells in these more offence-oriented spells, since they target the creature you are attacking, do you need a clear line of sight, or is it like D&D and you risk hitting your own party - ti doesn't talk about a cone of effect or a line, you are calling lightning from a deity. Since Rune Magic goes off 1st, and it is a Pow V Pow role - I assumed it couldn't hit those in the way - it comes from the gods... I haven't worried much, but we had some troops assisting us who began marching up in the foe pretty fast. I was asked to move to a clear line of site before getting a lightning blast on a spirit creature, and a lucky special Pow vs Pow roll on a double lightning spell. 

No chance of hitting anyone else, except if the GM invokes MGF. Note that some spells like Sunspear, do have an area effect (1m radium from the target), so take care with that one.

On 12/13/2023 at 4:32 PM, CatLark said:

Similar question about disruption? Can I use disruption, if we are in a narrow corridor, and I am behind my comrades who are engaged in melee, I can't easily use my bow, but can I safely use Disruption - as it is Pow v Pow targeting a specific foe? same question with the less offence-type of spirit magic such as slow, befuddle, demoralize & sleep. 

As before, as long as you can see them, there's no problem. 

Edited December 18, 2023 by Scotty
Added to Q&A

[Akhôrahil]

3 hours ago, CatLark said:

Do spells, rune or spirit magic, risk hitting your own allies

The most likely time for this to happen is when you cast an Area of Effect spell, like Sunspear. It hits where it hits - if your allies are there as well, tough.

[Godlearner]

2 hours ago, Scotty said:

GM: I suggest you move in so you can clearly see him or you can't cast the spell.

i would say that "see him" should be change to distinguish him. Second Sight, Soul Sight and Pierce Veil should work in most cases

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Godlearner said:

i would say that "see him" should be change to distinguish him. Second Sight, Soul Sight and Pierce Veil should work in most cases

Do these spells help to pick an individual out of a jumbled crowd, even without line of sight?
If there are 8 different people partially or wholly blocking your LOS to the target, don't their aura's obscure your target's aura, even as their bodies obscure the target's body?

[Godlearner]

5 hours ago, g33k said:

Do these spells help to pick an individual out of a jumbled crowd, even without line of sight?
If there are 8 different people partially or wholly blocking your LOS to the target, don't their aura's obscure your target's aura, even as their bodies obscure the target's body?

They show you auras and you can target an iduvidual one, which may or may not be the person you want to target.

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Godlearner said:

They show you auras and you can target an iduvidual one, which may or may not be the person you want to target.

Yes, but they show you EVERY aura.  If you're still Corporate (in your own body) can you decide the aura of someone right in front of you isn't an aura you "want to target" ... then can you just "see right through" that aura, unimpeded?

I'm inclined to rule that an aura is "translucent" -- it doesn't FULLY block the view beyond it, but it substantially impairs it.  I'd still rule that spellcasters have a couple of serious advantage over missileers in crowds:

• the casters have a 0% chance to hit an unintended target,
• even a narrow view of the intended target suffices to target POWvPOW

Whereas I'd rule that firing any physical missile into a tight crowd:

• any miss (not just a fumble) has a chance to hit an unintended target
• narrow views in moving crowds usually vanish too quickly for aim/release & flight-time

Note however that if you can get an elevated position, it's likely to give you an ideal casting platform, as you're looking down into the crowd, and can pick out most any particular aura within the crowd; it's still a risky bow/etc shot, but pretty reliable for spellcasting.

Also note that it's pretty obvious to most seasoned warriors why you've taken the elevated position:  specifically so you can target spells on individuals in the crowd... and not only casters but physical missileers are free to target you in turn!  Expect a non-trivial degree of counterfire...
 

[Shiningbrow]

I would say... most spells that are obviously one target specific (Disruption, Demoralize, Sever Spirit, Madness, Mindblast) won't have any problems as long as you can reasonably be able to see them during the MR.

However, not only AoE spells like Sunspear, but also Thunderbolt and Lightning can have friendly fire if they're in the way. Sunspear is obvious, because it has a radius. Lightning because it'll go directly from the finger/speartip to the target - and stuff anyone in the way. So, you'd need see more than just the head or the occasional limb sticking out every so often.

[Godlearner]

7 hours ago, g33k said:

can you decide the aura of someone right in front of you isn't an aura you "want to target" ... then can you just "see right through" that aura, unimpeded?

Its no different from regular sight. A bigger issue I would say is if the POW of the two auras is the same. How do you know which is which?

[Scotty]

22 hours ago, Godlearner said:

i would say that "see him" should be change to distinguish him. Second Sight, Soul Sight and Pierce Veil should work in most cases

Note that

• Second sight specifically says you can use it to target spells in the dark, It's 3 magic points and has a range of 10 metres. 
• Soul Sight is costs a Rune point, but has a range of 160m
• Pierce Veil takes the usual two+ turns to cast and doesn't work in the dark.

I've never had a player cast one of these to target a spell (cost and time are usually prohibited), but your games may differ.

7 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

However, not only AoE spells like Sunspear, but also Thunderbolt and Lightning can have friendly fire if they're in the way. Sunspear is obvious, because it has a radius. Lightning because it'll go directly from the finger/speartip to the target - and stuff anyone in the way. So, you'd need see more than just the head or the occasional limb sticking out every so often.

Only Sunspear can cause collateral damage as it has a radius. But neither Thunderbolt or Lightning do, the spell descriptions are for a single target.

[CatLark]

7 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I would say... most spells that are obviously one target specific (Disruption, Demoralize, Sever Spirit, Madness, Mindblast) won't have any problems as long as you can reasonably be able to see them during the MR.

However, not only AoE spells like Sunspear, but also Thunderbolt and Lightning can have friendly fire if they're in the way. Sunspear is obvious, because it has a radius. Lightning because it'll go directly from the finger/speartip to the target - and stuff anyone in the way. So, you'd need see more than just the head or the occasional limb sticking out every so often.

You are the first on to say that Lightning does collateral damage to allies. nowhere does it call it an AoE spell - Sunspear is the only on that mentions a radius - no one else has said that lightning works like DND and has a direct line from your hand or sword to creature you are targeting - "Summons a blast of lightning,"  you are taking on an aspect of the deity - would the god need to be that careful? 

[Akhôrahil]

Your Market or Warding can affect allies if they misbehave.

[Shiningbrow]

15 hours ago, Scotty said:

Only Sunspear can cause collateral damage as it has a radius. But neither Thunderbolt or Lightning do, the spell descriptions are for a single target.

Then clearly YGV. Lightning certainly can hit someone it wasn't supposed to if they get in the way. And, if the player rolled a Fumble on the Rune, I'd suggest they both would hit the wrong target (as an option other than merely it fizzles, taking the RPs).

 

15 hours ago, CatLark said:

You are the first on to say that Lightning does collateral damage to allies. nowhere does it call it an AoE spell - Sunspear is the only on that mentions a radius - no one else has said that lightning works like DND and has a direct line from your hand or sword to creature you are targeting - "Summons a blast of lightning,"  you are taking on an aspect of the deity - would the god need to be that careful? 

I'm not trying to suggest that Lightning is AoL (hence the separation by the comma).

Lightning specifically states "A blast of crackling energy projects from the caster." So, yes, "has a direct line" seems appropriate.

"would the god need to be that careful?" Yes. I'm sure there would be a few occasions in myth where the god has hit the wrong target. They're not omniscient, you know.

[Godlearner]

I look at it this way if there is a POW vs POW roll, then there is no collateral damage. But, it could be a wrong target.

[PhilHibbs]

Meteor Swarm is a serious spell with some AOE potential and it seems to not require POW vs POW because it causes physical meteors to rain from the sky on or around the target.

Other than that, and Sunspear, spirit and rune magic is pretty safe from friendly fire potential.