Gritty Scifi Weapons compatible with BRP? Can be from other systems, some conversion notes would be helpful but not mandatory :)

[jfr4lyfe]

Hi all,

I've fallen in love with BRP, but what there doesn't seem to much variation in weapons in the source material I have. For instance, A shotgun is just a shotgun or sawn off, no difference in manufacturer etc.

 

I like the 40k RPG weapons and I've been toying with making those stats fit. Main thing is the damage is far too high as toughness rating of the character soaks damage. I was thinking about removing 4pts of damage (average toughness ballparked) from each weapon but unsure on how to do this so that it is reflective of the weapons in the BGB and so that it makes the average hit  4pts less. For instance a bolter is a d10 plus 5; I was thinking drop the die down a step (from d10 to D8 or d6. and remove 2,3 or 4 off the other part) so D10+5 becomes D6 plus 3 Anyways, I was wondering if there is something all ready out there that would fit (D20 modern or something)? Or if there is a dice step plus average roll chart that would help me out someone could point me to?

 

For what it's worth I'm more into gritty space horror than shiny happy future stuff. Think Aliens or Warhammer or cyberpunk.

 

Thanks in advance

 

[rsanford]

I haven't vetted any of these, but if you go to the download section of this site, then on the right click science fiction and then other you should get a page like this -> https://basicroleplaying.org/files/category/55-other/.

I see partial conversions for 40K, Gamma World, Traveller and other science fiction games that might include futuristic weapons (I verified Colin's 40K conversion and "By Skull"'s Gamma World conversion have some). There used to be a conversion for GDW's 2300 AD by Udo Sabath on this site that was particularly well done and had ~40 future weapons, but I can't seem to find it now.

I have also seen a fan document titled "Runequest 3 - Expansion Rules I High Tech" by Gordon Hardy that you might find interesting though I don't remember where I got it. PM me your email address if you want me to send it to you.

* I forgot something... Though not a guide of futuristic weapons, Sixtystone Press' Investgator Weapons Volume 2 is 244 pages of modern weapon goodness for Call of Cthulhu / BRP. Unfortunately I don't think its still being offered but you might find it on Amazon or Ebay.

** Look what I found here on BRP Central->

 

Edited December 16, 2023 by rsanford

[jfr4lyfe]

That's great, thank you. I'd seen a couple of these somewhere else but didn't realize there was so much on this site. I'd been searching using 'weapon' as a key term (which didn't bring up much)

I found the mutant chronicles hack and going to use that with the original weapon jamming etc.

Thanks again

JFR

Edited December 17, 2023 by jfr4lyfe

[soltakss]

On 12/16/2023 at 12:50 PM, jfr4lyfe said:

I've fallen in love with BRP, but what there doesn't seem to much variation in weapons in the source material I have. For instance, A shotgun is just a shotgun or sawn off, no difference in manufacturer etc.

Personally, I am a big fan of a shotgun being a shotgun, with them all being the same. The alternative is to have numerous tiny variants for no real reason other than to show off the author's knowledge of real-life firearms. That approach just bores me.

On 12/16/2023 at 12:50 PM, jfr4lyfe said:

I like the 40k RPG weapons and I've been toying with making those stats fit. Main thing is the damage is far too high as toughness rating of the character soaks damage. I was thinking about removing 4pts of damage (average toughness ballparked) from each weapon but unsure on how to do this so that it is reflective of the weapons in the BGB and so that it makes the average hit  4pts less. For instance a bolter is a d10 plus 5; I was thinking drop the die down a step (from d10 to D8 or d6. and remove 2,3 or 4 off the other part) so D10+5 becomes D6 plus 3 Anyways, I was wondering if there is something all ready out there that would fit (D20 modern or something)? Or if there is a dice step plus average roll chart that would help me out someone could point me to?

For SciFi, I tend to go for different categories, so Blaster, Plasma Gun and so on.

Have a look at my RQSciFi take, as it contains several categories of weapons with RQ-style damage that should be pretty much compatible with BRP.

 

[g33k]

11 hours ago, soltakss said:

Personally, I am a big fan of a shotgun being a shotgun, with them all being the same. The alternative is to have numerous tiny variants for no real reason ...

There is a "mil-tech Sci-Fi" vibe that IME calls for a certain degree of "gun porn / gear porn."

It can become a mingame of trading disadvantages (concealability, cost, ENC, etc) vs. various advantages (range, accuracy, versatility (variant ammo's), recoil, rate of fire, etc), also including accessories (scopes, clips vs drums, smart weapons, etc).

I used to like those sorts of minigames better than I do these days; but I still understand those who like to have it as part of their RPG system.

Edited December 18, 2023 by g33k
typo

[Atgxtg]

On 12/16/2023 at 7:50 AM, jfr4lyfe said:

Hi all,

I've fallen in love with BRP, but what there doesn't seem to much variation in weapons in the source material I have. For instance, A shotgun is just a shotgun or sawn off, no difference in manufacturer etc.

Yeah, I think that is mostly because there isn't  lot of sci-fi stuff for BRP in general so you end up with a small weapons table with generic examples. 

 

Now there are quite a few alterative RPGs that could be used as a source, and several ways of converting, depneding on what systems you are coming from, but...if you want a way to convert weapons that will give you a decent match with BRP, and keep it simple, I'd suggest start by looking at the firearms in comparison to the energy weapons. 

For example, under"Modern Missile Weapons" a medium pistol does 1D8 damage.

Under "Advanced Missile Weapons" a medium laser pistol also does 1D8, while a blaster pistol does 1D8+2 (2 points more than the laser), and a disintergrator pistol does 3D4+1 (or three times a die two steps lower,plus 1).

Now, Assault Rifle 2d6+2, laser rifle 2d8, blaser rifle 2D8+8 (8 points more), and disintegration rifle 3D6+2 (three times a die one step lower, Plus 2) follow a similar pattern.

So you could create more weapons by converting other firearms to lasers, blasters, etc. by applying similar modifications to them. For example , a derringer does 1D6, so a hold-out blaser could do 1D6+2.

THis method not only works with the sample firearms provided in the core rules, but would also work with other firearms from other BRP realted supplments (such as Call of Cthulhu). It could aos be applied to weapons for other RPGs by finding a BRP analog for comparison.

 

Fopr instance, the 40K Lasrifle would be analogous to the BRP laser rifle and should probably have damage stats that are similar (2D8), with some variation between models based on the decription and characters of each individual model. Again BRP firearms can help here to get a idea of the difference between say a Assault Weapon and a Sporting Weapon.

Now for the bolter is is essentially a advanced slugthrower that fire a big, heavy .75 caliber round, so I'd probably look at the BRP Musket for an baseline. The Musket does 1D10+4 which is pretty close to the 1D10+5 you mention for the bolter.

 

How well this works for you kinda depends on what you are expecting. In BRP getting hit by a musket will probably ruin your day, unless you got good armor or other form of protection. In some other games, a single hit by a weapon doesn't have much of an effect on an experienced warrior (i.e. in D&D a .50 cal bullet does 2D12, but a typical mid level PC might have 40 or 50 hit points). SO when converting over you need to decide if you want the results to be in tune with BRP, or with the source game system. If the latter, you might want to consider doubling hit points or maybe increasing the armor a little. 

 

Hope that helps.

 

 

  

 

[jfr4lyfe]

14 hours ago, soltakss said:

Personally, I am a big fan of a shotgun being a shotgun, with them all being the same. The alternative is to have numerous tiny variants for no real reason other than to show off the author's knowledge of real-life firearms. That approach just bores me.

For SciFi, I tend to go for different categories, so Blaster, Plasma Gun and so on.

Have a look at my RQSciFi take, as it contains several categories of weapons with RQ-style damage that should be pretty much compatible with BRP.

 

I get what you mean, however the megacorps have so much weight in my setting that I would like to distinguish from between manufacturers somehow. I think I remember the original mutant chronicles having different reliability rules so I'll possibly try and dig that out.

 

Having said that, this is a fantastic document! And I will definitely be using it, thank you. I love the idea of traveller but never got much passed character creation. What I might try and implement is different effects for different kinds of weapons like plasma rifles etc. I think the wh40k crit tables are good for this.

5 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Yeah, I think that is mostly because there isn't  lot of sci-fi stuff for BRP in general so you end up with a small weapons table with generic examples. 

 

Now there are quite a few alterative RPGs that could be used as a source, and several ways of converting, depneding on what systems you are coming from, but...if you want a way to convert weapons that will give you a decent match with BRP, and keep it simple, I'd suggest start by looking at the firearms in comparison to the energy weapons. 

For example, under"Modern Missile Weapons" a medium pistol does 1D8 damage.

Under "Advanced Missile Weapons" a medium laser pistol also does 1D8, while a blaster pistol does 1D8+2 (2 points more than the laser), and a disintergrator pistol does 3D4+1 (or three times a die two steps lower,plus 1).

Now, Assault Rifle 2d6+2, laser rifle 2d8, blaser rifle 2D8+8 (8 points more), and disintegration rifle 3D6+2 (three times a die one step lower, Plus 2) follow a similar pattern.

So you could create more weapons by converting other firearms to lasers, blasters, etc. by applying similar modifications to them. For example , a derringer does 1D6, so a hold-out blaser could do 1D6+2.

THis method not only works with the sample firearms provided in the core rules, but would also work with other firearms from other BRP realted supplments (such as Call of Cthulhu). It could aos be applied to weapons for other RPGs by finding a BRP analog for comparison.

 

For instance, the 40K Lasrifle would be analogous to the BRP laser rifle and should probably have damage stats that are similar (2D8), with some variation between models based on the decription and characters of each individual model. Again BRP firearms can help here to get a idea of the difference between say a Assault Weapon and a Sporting Weapon.

Now for the bolter is is essentially a advanced slugthrower that fire a big, heavy .75 caliber round, so I'd probably look at the BRP Musket for an baseline. The Musket does 1D10+4 which is pretty close to the 1D10+5 you mention for the bolter.

 

How well this works for you kinda depends on what you are expecting. In BRP getting hit by a musket will probably ruin your day, unless you got good armor or other form of protection. In some other games, a single hit by a weapon doesn't have much of an effect on an experienced warrior (i.e. in D&D a .50 cal bullet does 2D12, but a typical mid level PC might have 40 or 50 hit points). SO when converting over you need to decide if you want the results to be in tune with BRP, or with the source game system. If the latter, you might want to consider doubling hit points or maybe increasing the armor a little. 

 

Hope that helps.

 

 

  

 

This is very helpul, and something I started doing with the 40k stuff. However what I think I'm missing is how to work out 'can deal more damage' and 'always deals more damage. For instance 3d6+2 gives a minimum of 5 damage which, for a head shot, would kill most characters. However a shotgun at close range is 4d6, which means minimum 4 damage. I feel a shotgun at close range should generally be more deadly, idk. Then there are the mean numbers for rolls etc. I do have a document about modern firearms I got off here with this table in it:

Risk	Roll	Mean	Std. Dev	Max
1	1	1	0	1
2	1D3	2	0.8	3
3	1D4	2.5	1.1	4
4	1D4+1	3.5	1.1	5
5	1D6	3.5	1.7	6
6	1D6+1	4.5	1.7	7
7	1D8	4.5	2.3	8
8	1D8+1	5.5	2.3	9
9	1D10	5.5	2.9	10
10	1D10+1	6.5	2.9	11
11	1D12	6.5	3.45	12
12	2D6	7	2.41	12
13	2D6+1	8	2.41	13
14	2D8	9	3.24	16
15	2D8+1	10	3.24	17
16	2D10	11	4.06	20
17	3D6	11.5	2.95	18
18	3D8	13.5	3.97	24
19	3D10	16.5	4.97	30
20	3D12	19.5	5.98	36

But I was hoping to find one that had more dice and went higher and took into account the minimum damage as well. Ideally gurps could be converted. It has everything in it lol

 

 

Edited December 18, 2023 by jfr4lyfe

[SDLeary]

10 hours ago, g33k said:

There is a "mil-tech Sci-Fi" vibe that IME calls for a certain degree of "gun porn / gear porn."

It can become a mingame of trading disadvantages (concealability, cost, ENC, etc) vs. various advantages (range, accuracy, versatility (variant ammo's), recoil, rate of fire, etc), also including accessories (scopes, clips vs drums, smart weapons, etc).

I used to like those sorts of minigames better than I do these days; but I still understand those who like to have it as part of their RPG system.

I’m with you here. 
The nice part though, is that if you start with Light, Medium, … and so on, is that you can always add in the greater weapon/caliber list later. I keep the old Delta Green book around fore just such emergencies.

SDLeary

Edited December 18, 2023 by SDLeary

[Atgxtg]

6 hours ago, jfr4lyfe said:

I get what you mean, however the megacorps have so much weight in my setting that I would like to distinguish from between manufacturers somehow. I think I remember the original mutant chronicles having different reliability rules so I'll possibly try and dig that out.

 

Having said that, this is a fantastic document! And I will definitely be using it, thank you. I love the idea of traveller but never got much passed character creation. What I might try and implement is different effects for different kinds of weapons like plasma rifles etc. I think the wh40k crit tables are good for this.

This is very helpul, and something I started doing with the 40k stuff. However what I think I'm missing is how to work out 'can deal more damage' and 'always deals more damage. For instance 3d6+2 gives a minimum of 5 damage which, for a head shot, would kill most characters. However a shotgun at close range is 4d6, which means minimum 4 damage.

LOL! Welcome to the club! Some of us have reservations about the adds given to some weapons for precisely that reason. For example, thick leather armor (2 points) is actually pretty good protection against a dagger (1d4+2), but the add ensures that a dagger will always pierce leather in the game. It's pretty much one of those minor, unintentional, but irksome flaws built into the system. The ability for low CON low hit point characters to survive multiple served limbs while high CON characters cannot, being another. All RPGs tend to have odd quirks like this. In fact, at one time, one of the RPG magazines used to run a regular column where somebody would point out several such flaws each issue. 

 

Over the years several of us have posted ideas on how to get around this particular flaw, but there is nothing official. 

6 hours ago, jfr4lyfe said:

I feel a shotgun at close range should generally be more deadly, idk.

Sorry, you're probably wrong on that. 

Consider. In BRP an "elephant gun" does 3D6+4 (that's why I never get into a shooting war with elephants), so a firearm that did 3D6+2  would probably be something like a .300 Winchester Magnum, powerful but not quite powerful enough to go hunt a elephant with. A .300 Winchester Magnum round has somewhere between 20% to 200% more energy that a typical 12 gauge shotgun round. And at close range, shotgun pellets don't spread out, and strike much like a  slug. So the higher mimimum isn't all that wrong.

 

6 hours ago, jfr4lyfe said:

Then there are the mean numbers for rolls etc. I do have a document about modern firearms I got off here with this table in it:

The best firearms damage stats for BRP, IMO, are the ones used in the Investigator Weapons series for Call of Cthulhu. They are both internally consistent, and are fairly reasonable compared to other BRP products.  But they focus on late 19th to early 21st century weapons. It focuses on specific weapon models rather than generic examples, so there is more variance. Not all assault rifles are exactly the same.

Investigator Weapons also generally scales a bit better for the minimum damage too. For example you will see a progression of rifle damages from 2D8 to 2D6+2, to 2D6+4, giving a smoother progression between minimum, mean, and maximum damages, with fewer oddball values. Overall, I think the the best set of firearms stats for any BRP game. It's not perfect, and I don't agree with every design choice made, but it's still as good as anything else out there for BRP, and better than most. If you want I can post some sample damages from the book to show the progression. Investigator Weapons is probably the closest thing to a definitive firearm damage progression for BRP.

Oh, and the author of the Investigator Weapons series, Hans-Christian Vortisch, is also the author of GURPS Hi-Tech Weapons Tables and a co-author of GURPS High Tech (4th Edition), so Investigator Weapons sort of does the Conversion from GURPS for you, with similar rules, a lot of the same weapons, and I suspect the damage tables probably easy to match up as a result.

 

6 hours ago, jfr4lyfe said:

Risk	Roll	Mean	Std. Dev	Max
1	1	1	0	1
2	1D3	2	0.8	3
3	1D4	2.5	1.1	4
4	1D4+1	3.5	1.1	5
5	1D6	3.5	1.7	6
6	1D6+1	4.5	1.7	7
7	1D8	4.5	2.3	8
8	1D8+1	5.5	2.3	9
9	1D10	5.5	2.9	10
10	1D10+1	6.5	2.9	11
11	1D12	6.5	3.45	12
12	2D6	7	2.41	12
13	2D6+1	8	2.41	13
14	2D8	9	3.24	16
15	2D8+1	10	3.24	17
16	2D10	11	4.06	20
17	3D6	11.5	2.95	18
18	3D8	13.5	3.97	24
19	3D10	16.5	4.97	30
20	3D12	19.5	5.98	36

Looks like you visited Anydice. 😉

First off I'd like to point out that BRP games do not use the D12 anymore, a design decision made way back in RQ2. 

Secondly note that the adds/minimum damage problem still exists: going from 1D4+1 (min 2) to 1D6 (min 1) for instance.

6 hours ago, jfr4lyfe said:

 

 

 

But I was hoping to find one that had more dice and went higher and took into account the minimum damage as well. Ideally gurps could be converted. It has everything in it lol

For the most part you won't see this because of BRP's focus on characters and the inherent lethiality of weapons in the game. I mean when a 5 point wound will probably take a character out of a fight,  and a 10 point wound is probably an autokill, do you need stats for anything that does more than five dice?There is Investigator Weapons, as I noted above that gives a nice progression, and there are a e a couple of formulas for working out damage an other stats for a firearm (I can dig one or two up if you need them, that give mostly good values for BRP or Mythras).One  the thing to note here is that the firearm stats mostly originated in Call of Cthulhu, and the author there based damage  more on momentum, caliber,  and perceived "stopping power", basically an old school approach to damage stats, while  where most formulas base damage on muzzle energy and/or penetration, that is a more new school approach. That's why the .45 does more damage in CoC than a 9mm. Something that has been hotly debated in real life, and rather hard to prove one way or the other as we can't just start shooting people under laboratory conditions to find out. 

I'd also strongly recommend BTRC's Stuff! supplement for it's EABA RPG. Stuff! has rules for design weapons (among other things) based on the size of the weapon, technological capability of the culture, and a list of modfies such as how many hands are needed, single shot or multi-use weapon, size of the ammo, and so forth. It uses a penetration based damage model, but can be adapted to BRP (I think I have a conversion table to Investigator Weapons/CoC damage on a hard drive somewhere).Stuff! is a great toll for designing things, especially weapons, and it has conversion guidelines for multiple other RPGs, including GURPS.  It's also nice in that it uses the same design method for all weapons, and can handle anything from pellet gun to a 16" naval gun, and beyond, which makes it easier to see how the stats for futuristic laser rifle would compare to a modern assault rifle. 

BRTC also has 3G3, a more detailed, and more crunchy method of designing weapons for it's Timelord's RPG series but since Stuff! is both simpler and compatible/convertible to 3G3, I'd recommend it first. 

In a nutshell,IMO,  probably the best ways to go are either Investigator Weapons, or one of BTRC's products. 

 

Anyway, let me know if any of that helps or what sort of direction you wish to go in.

[Atgxtg]

15 hours ago, g33k said:

There is a "mil-tech Sci-Fi" vibe that IME calls for a certain degree of "gun porn / gear porn."

It can become a mingame of trading disadvantages (concealability, cost, ENC, etc) vs. various advantages (range, accuracy, versatility (variant ammo's), recoil, rate of fire, etc), also including accessories (scopes, clips vs drums, smart weapons, etc).

I used to like those sorts of minigames better than I do these days; but I still understand those who like to have it as part of their RPG system.

Yeah, but I think there is more to it that just player/GM "gun porn / gear porn." There is  also a bit of game system/genre/style "gun porn / gear porn." here as well. For instance the James Bond RPG, tries to emulate the world created by Ian Fleming, whose style involved lots of detail. So Bond didn't just carry a small pistol, he carried a .25 Beretta with a skeleton grip and spur on the magazine., in a Berns-Martin Triple Draw Holster. He didn't just drive a car, he drove a Mark II Continental Bentley with an Arnott supercharger. 

It didn't matter than the .25 Beretta described by Fleming didn't actually exist (the .25's do not have a butt spur, as that could snag on clothing), that you can't use a pistol with a  the Bern's-Martin Triple Draw Holster (it's for revolvers only), or that the Mark II Continental Bentley doesn't exist as such (it's a 4/12 litre Bentley Blower). What matter was the detail gave the setting more verisimilitude and was important to setting the tone and style. Therefore the Bond RPG is steeped in such minutia, to the point where there are almost not generic weapons or items. Everything is a brand name. If a GM were to simply things and take that away, it wouldn't feel like Bond. 

Now if you look at, say a Star Trek RPG, or most super hero RPGs, it's entirely different. The exact model and details of a firearm don't usually matter much, and they just note things like pistol or sub-machinegun. It could be a Tommy Gun, a Masden M-50, an MP-40, but it's all just a SMG to Star Trek (where the PCs carry phasers) or to Superheores (who either are bullet proof, or very hard to hit).In a setting like Doctor Who, carry a firearm is often a sign that the PCs probably don't need to bother with the detail of the character carrying it, let alone the details of the firearm. Different emphasis.

 

There are also game mechanics considerations too. For instance in some RPGs gear and weapons are tied to character advancement. So you need better weapons and gear to advance the characters and well as to elp each PC have their own niche. Hence D&D's lists  of nearly every archaic weapon ever created regardless of setting, date, or culture, along with all sort of magical perks. 

 

SO it's not just a GM/player thing.

 

Edited December 18, 2023 by Atgxtg

[g33k]

31 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Yeah, but I think there is more to it that just player/GM "gun porn / gear porn."

... 

SO it's not just a GM/player thing.

No; it's not "just a player/GM thing."

I didn't say that it was, though -- I was talking about a genre of "mil-tech Sci-Fi;" that genre calls for the specific "gun porn / gear porn" vibe.
And yes:  Bond counts.

[Atgxtg]

28 minutes ago, g33k said:

No; it's not "just a player/GM thing."

I didn't say that it was, though --

No you didn't. But you parting statement of " but I still understand those who like to have it as part of their RPG system." sort of  suggest that it is a feature that players add to a game, and not intrinsic to a game.

28 minutes ago, g33k said:

I was talking about a genre of "mil-tech Sci-Fi;" that genre calls for the specific "gun porn / gear porn" vibe.

To be fair, all genres and RPGs have some aspect of this, although not necessarily gear or weapon related. Namely all RPGs emphasize some  aspects of RPGing (combat/conflict, story telling, role-play) over others. It's just that we tend to focus of the gun/gear porn and combat over others because they are the aspect most commonly emphasized. I mean nobody's made a RPG about Certified Public Accounts with a strong emphasis on double-entry book keeping. Or if they have, they had the courtesy to keep it to themselves. 

28 minutes ago, g33k said:

And yes:  Bond counts.

It's probably the literary poster child for that sort of thing, although plenty of RPGs match it's love of detail and stats. 

 

Oh, and there is also a sort of "clothes make the man" aspect to all this too. A character is described in part by the gear they carry. Giving Indiana Jones a Smith and Wesson Revolver chambered for Webley .455, as opposed to a Browning High Power, Colt .45 Revolver or M1911A1, says some things about his character.

Just like having a character carry a Luger is usually a way of showing that they are a bad guy. 

 

 

BTW, Isn't it kinda ironic that of all the BRP games Call of Cthulhu is the one that goes into the most detail about firearms, and Call of Cthulhu is probably the BRP game where those details matter the least? It's almost as if they are expecting the Shoggoth to stop in mid attack and ask "Is that a Freedom Arms Model 83 you're shooting at me? And are you using .45 Colt, .45 ACP, or .454 Casull ammo?" 

 

[jfr4lyfe]

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

Sorry, you're probably wrong on that. 

Probably, I'm in the UK so most of my gun knowledge comes from mid-nineties rap music and Full Metal Jacket lol

 

This is all very useful stuff. At the moment I think I'm going to have a look at stuff! for BTRC (another system I hope I dont get into lol) These days I spend more time readiing rule books than playing. I fairly enjoy the differences and how each system tries to represent different aspects. I still haven't found a way to handle money I like though

 

2 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

In fact, at one time, one of the RPG magazines used to run a regular column where somebody would point out several such flaws each issue. 

I'm pretty familiar with shadowrun 2nd edition, so I consider them to be features 🤣

[Ian_W]

10 hours ago, jfr4lyfe said:

I get what you mean, however the megacorps have so much weight in my setting that I would like to distinguish from between manufacturers somehow.

Your players will HATE  you for this ... but different manufacturers require different power packs and ammo for fundamentally the same weapons.

So the Delforth Gauss Rifle's power pack is incompatible with the JnR Blaster's power pack. The PPsK and the Brelforth are the same basic clip-fed highly controllable zero-g carbine, but they use different lengths of .22.

[jfr4lyfe]

1 minute ago, Ian_W said:

Your players will HATE  you for this ... but different manufacturers require different power packs and ammo for fundamentally the same weapons.

So the Delforth Gauss Rifle's power pack is incompatible with the JnR Blaster's power pack. The PPsK and the Brelforth are the same basic clip-fed highly controllable zero-g carbine, but they use different lengths of .22.

Or make all the charging cables different and they tend to break when you carry them with you too often🤣

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, jfr4lyfe said:

Probably, I'm in the UK so most of my gun knowledge comes from mid-nineties rap music and Full Metal Jacket lol

LOL! Don't feel too bad, shotguns tend to get hyped up a little in TV and film. Not that they aren't deadly weapons. It's just that ad shotgun has about the same energy as a mid-to-high powered rifle, but that energy is divided among several small pellets. THe orginbal idea was to increase the changes of getting a hit on a fast moving bird, which didn't need a lot to stop, compared to stopping a man.

1 hour ago, jfr4lyfe said:

This is all very useful stuff. At the moment I think I'm going to have a look at stuff! for BTRC (another system I hope I dont get into lol)

BTRC (Blackbird Tactical Research Center) is the name of the company. They (well actually he, since Greg Porter is the owner/game designer)produce several games,. EABA is the RPG that stuff is made for, although BTC is produced CORPS and several RPGs based on thier Timelords Game system. 

Most of Greg's RPGs are fairly well grounded in science, and use some sort of mathematical method to stat up things, rather than eyeballing it, which helps with putting things onto some sort of scale and keeping everything internally consistent - especially when you want to stat up a lot of stuff. 

1 hour ago, jfr4lyfe said:

These days I spend more time readiing rule books than playing.

I know the feeling. I thing every GM does.

1 hour ago, jfr4lyfe said:

 

I fairly enjoy the differences and how each system tries to represent different aspects.

 Yes, plus it helps when trying to find the best method or system to emulate a certain genre or setting. 

1 hour ago, jfr4lyfe said:

I still haven't found a way to handle money I like though

In what way? I've seen a few different approaches.

1 hour ago, jfr4lyfe said:

I'm pretty familiar with shadowrun 2nd edition, so I consider them to be features 🤣

It all comes down to what you want, and for what type of game. Basically what happens is that every game focus on the stuff that seems the most important and then takes shortcuts in other, less important aspects. This results in some unexpected, and unintended consequences that don't make sense. For instance, in old D&D thieves required fewer XP to advance than fighters, resulting in thieves eventually passing fighters on the combat tables, and maybe even having more hit points than the fighters. Not really a feature.  

Edited December 18, 2023 by Atgxtg

[Ian_W]

3 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

 

Consider. In BRP an "elephant gun" does 3D6+4

By the way, the military versions of these were called 'anti-tank rifles' for a while, but have been renamed 'anti-material rifles' because tank armor got too thick for them.

 

As a GM you need to think about the weapons vs armor dynamic - if there isn't a lot of armor around, then weapons that fire lots of small bullets will be well liked. If there is a lot of armor around, people will start using things that fire fewer, bigger bullets.

So, although elephant guns got invented fifty years and more earlier, militaries after WW2 went for less high powered 'intermediate' cartridges that could fire a lot of bullets quickly and accurately.

 

Today, good body armor is becoming cheaper and more accessible, so armies are thinking of adopting bigger, harder hitting bullets,.

 

My recommendation would be to make up some weapons, and have them issued to your players - PPsK had the contract for equipping the Nostromo, so theres some PPsK carbines, shotguns and a heavy blast rifle, each with their own quirks and whatnot.

Edited December 18, 2023 by Ian_W

[jfr4lyfe]

24 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

In what way? I've seen a few different approaches.

 

I'd like somewhere between traveller type system where you get paid for jobs and speculated trade, and rolling against a money stat. I like the idea of having it abstracted but then how do you ever get better gear and what's the limit if you say the players can have something more rare/expensive.

In the BGB for instance it's stat to roll against. But what if I just completed a big job? What criteria for getting different gear? Why count some of the costs and not others. The only way I can see it properly working is to just count everything.

I like the idea of 'usage' dice for somethings; like food and water, but not more expensive items?

Equipment in 40k for instance,  you just roll against a stat taking rarity into account. So I can have anything as long as the dice are in my favour and get nothing if they aren't.  That's not how money works 🤷‍♂️. And how many shops are there? Can characters just spend al their days looking for shops and rolling until they hit the jackpot?

[jfr4lyfe]

17 minutes ago, Ian_W said:

By the way, the military versions of these were called 'anti-tank rifles' for a while, but have been renamed 'anti-material rifles' because tank armor got too thick for them.

 

As a GM you need to think about the weapons vs armor dynamic - if there isn't a lot of armor around, then weapons that fire lots of small bullets will be well liked. If there is a lot of armor around, people will start using things that fire fewer, smaller bullets.

So, although elephant guns got invented fifty years and more earlier, militaries after WW2 went for less high powered 'intermediate' cartridges that could fire a lot of bullets quickly and accurately.

 

Today, good body armor is becoming cheaper and more accessible, so armies are thinking of adopting bigger, harder hitting bullets,.

 

My recommendation would be to make up some weapons, and have them issued to your players - PPsK had the contract for equipping the Nostromo, so theres some PPsK carbines, shotguns and a heavy blast rifle, each with their own quirks and whatnot.

I think armour will be a part of the setting definitely. Probably using variable AV. It's a scifi space horror, a cross between the expanse and alien with some body horror thrown in for good measure

[Ian_W]

18 minutes ago, jfr4lyfe said:

 

Equipment in 40k for instance,  you just roll against a stat taking rarity into account. So I can have anything as long as the dice are in my favour and get nothing if they aren't.  That's not how money works 🤷‍♂️.

It is how money works when you're from somewhere - like 40k - where it is more important who you know than how much cash you have.

 

This is true in the real world as well. There are plenty of people with the money to buy, say, a French main battle tank with the good optics and whatnot. But they can't buy such a thing with mere money.

[g33k]

2 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

No you didn't. But you parting statement of " but I still understand those who like to have it as part of their RPG system." sort of  suggest that it is a feature that players add to a game, and not intrinsic to a game.

Huh.
I honestly didn't mean it that way... and even with you pointing to the specific quote, I don't read it that way.

I was talking about different tastes in games, like... some prefer their combat to be grid-and-mini's, even with RPGs; some prefer a quick sketch, for-reference, and GO! ; and some prefer pure TotM.  And while the TotM crowd can run most RPG's their way & ignore range-mods &c, the grid-and-mini's crowd usually need game-systems with pre-built ranges, AoE attacks statted out with their Areas, etc etc etc.  So I was genuinely referring to some folks liking games whose genres & mechanics already support extensive gear statblocks, gear-customization-minigames, and such-like features

I guess... <shrugs> different styles of communications, or something?  No harm, no foul, & thank you for keeping things civil (recalling other forums where "casually abusive" and "grow a thicker skin" are the norms).

3 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

... To be fair, all genres and RPGs have some aspect of this, although not necessarily gear or weapon related. Namely all RPGs emphasize some  aspects of RPGing (combat/conflict, story telling, role-play) over others. It's just that we tend to focus of the gun/gear porn and combat over others because they are the aspect most commonly emphasized. I mean nobody's made a RPG about Certified Public Accounts with a strong emphasis on double-entry book keeping. Or if they have, they had the courtesy to keep it to themselves...

Oh, yeah, absolutely!  I've seen more than one gaming-comic whose punchline revolved around that RPG (the infamous CPA's & Notaries Public... technically a GURPS sourcebook rather than a separate RPG, I think).

And really, how could BRP not fall (at least somewhat) into this tradition (since Glorantha came to RPG's by way of the WBRM wargame, and landed in the hands of SCA founder & knight Steve Perrin, who focused on authenticity-of-combat) ?

3 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

... BTW, Isn't it kinda ironic that of all the BRP games Call of Cthulhu is the one that goes into the most detail about firearms, and Call of Cthulhu is probably the BRP game where those details matter the least? It's almost as if they are expecting the Shoggoth to stop in mid attack and ask "Is that a Freedom Arms Model 83 you're shooting at me? And are you using .45 Colt, .45 ACP, or .454 Casull ammo?" 

🤣   ROFLMAO!
No, it isn't kinda ironic, it is hugely and gloriously ironic, it is the AA-12 of irony, OTT and slap-in-the-face-with-a-steel-gauntlet ironic.

To be fair, of course, CoC is (afaik) kinda the RPG that invented the whole "accurate historical details in RPGs" schtick, often including bringing physical props (pseudo-news-clippings, train tickets, incriminating personal letters, and other clues) to the gaming-table, &c.  To some degree, weapons in CoC are just an aspect of that obsession... but also, to some degree they are not.

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, Ian_W said:

By the way, the military versions of these were called 'anti-tank rifles' for a while, but have been renamed 'anti-material rifles' because tank armor got too thick for them.

Not quite. Yes there were anti-tank rifles, but wen the aror got to thick they were just replaced with man portable anti tank rockets and grenades. 

Anti-material rifles are a fairly recent thing and really stemmed out of extra heavy caliber sniper rifles,such as the .50BMG Barrett which were considered overkill for a person, so they marketed them as being able to "kill" light vehicles and aircraft. But the .50 BMG round was orginally effective against tanks.

But the hunting rifles were not really a civilian anti-tank gun, just something big and heavy enough to get though an animal's skull (not armor) and do enough damage to drop it before it go to the hunter. Because an angry Tiger or Elephant isn't a fun playmate. That's why a lot of the big hunting guns were doubled barreled- to give a backup. Noe of the anti-tank guns I can think of were.

 

1 hour ago, Ian_W said:

As a GM you need to think about the weapons vs armor dynamic - if there isn't a lot of armor around, then weapons that fire lots of small bullets will be well liked. If there is a lot of armor around, people will start using things that fire fewer, bigger bullets.

Yup. Plus there is also some wield escalation effects and target choices that occur if someone starts carrying a bigger, badder weapon. In WWII guys with submachgineguns, automatic rifles and flame throwers tended to draw a lot more fire, because they draw a lot more attention. Everyone else is going "bang" while they are going "bang, bang, bang, bang, bang" or lighting a tree on fire. Who would you shoot at?

It's actually a case of player's survival instinct working against them. A player grabs a bigger weapon to one up everyone else, and makes themself a higher prioty target, thereby reducing their chances of survival. 

1 hour ago, Ian_W said:

So, although elephant guns got invented fifty years and more earlier, militaries after WW2 went for less high powered 'intermediate' cartridges that could fire a lot of bullets quickly and accurately.

Yes, because you don't need an elephant rifle to drop a man.  RPGs tend to have a damage stat and hit points, so it looks like more damage is always better, but in real life pretty much any firearm can take someone out, you don't need to kill them ten times over. 

You do need to hit them though so having more ammo and a fast rate of fire is worth more than sheer power. Likewise lower weight means more ammo, so lighter weapons.

There is a bit of a range factor here too. The switch from single shot 7.62mm to automatic 5.54 mm and such had a lot to do with what the practical effective range an average solder could hit a man at rather than what their rifle's effective range was. Most soldiers can't hit a man in combat condictions who is  1000 yards away, so why build a rifle that shoots that far? 

1 hour ago, Ian_W said:

Today, good body armor is becoming cheaper and more accessible, so armies are thinking of adopting bigger, harder hitting bullets,.

Uh, slightly heavier. It really more of a intermediate design (6.5mm) compared to what they had before (7.65-7.92mm). 

1 hour ago, Ian_W said:

 

My recommendation would be to make up some weapons, and have them issued to your players - PPsK had the contract for equipping the Nostromo, so theres some PPsK carbines, shotguns and a heavy blast rifle, each with their own quirks and whatnot.

That depends on what sort of game and adventure being run, but it can be interesting.

[g33k]

5 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

... Plus there is also some wield escalation effects and target choices that occur if someone starts carrying a bigger, badder weapon. In WWII guys with submachgineguns, automatic rifles and flame throwers tended to draw a lot more fire, because they draw a lot more attention. Everyone else is going "bang" while they are going "bang, bang, bang, bang, bang" or lighting a tree on fire. Who would you shoot at?

It's actually a case of player's survival instinct working against them. A player grabs a bigger weapon to one up everyone else, and makes themself a higher prioty target, thereby reducing their chances of survival ...

My uncle commanded a machine-gun nest for the USMC in Viet Nam.
He cited me the survival statistic that, if all they had for protection was some sandbags, the average survival time of the machine gun nest was about 30sec after opening up.  Once the other side knew there was an active nest, they became THE target.

[Atgxtg]

Just now, g33k said:

Huh.
I honestly didn't mean it that way... and even with you pointing to the specific quote, I don't read it that way.

I didn't mean anything by it. 

Just now, g33k said:

I was talking about different tastes in games, like... some prefer their combat to be grid-and-mini's, even with RPGs; some prefer a quick sketch, for-reference, and GO! ; and some prefer pure TotM. 

But that is often come doesn to how each group runs a game. 

Just now, g33k said:

I guess... <shrugs> different styles of communications, or something? 

Yeah, plus text doesn't have inflection. 

Just now, g33k said:

No harm, no foul, & thank you for keeping things civil (recalling other forums where "casually abusive" and "grow a thicker skin" are the norms).

Oh, no need for that. We weren't even disagreeing. I was just trying to show how it's not just a player preference thing, but a game design and setting design thing

Just now, g33k said:

Oh, yeah, absolutely!  I've seen more than one gaming-comic whose punchline revolved around that RPG (the infamous CPA's & Notaries Public... technically a GURPS sourcebook rather than a separate RPG, I think).

LOL! Somehow a game where PCs try to hide thier Cayman Island slush from from  the IRS auditors has a sort of oldskool computer RPG vibe. 

Just now, g33k said:

And really, how could BRP not fall (at least somewhat) into this tradition (since Glorantha came to RPG's by way of the WBRM wargame, and landed in the hands of SCA founder & knight Steve Perrin, who focused on authenticity-of-combat) ?

Weell, to be honest the various weapon damage might not be all that authentic. Romans used Gladius and Scutum instead of a longer sword for good reasons, most of which don't translate into most RPGs. But yeah, Steve was trying to make RQ less abstract than D&D. 

Just now, g33k said:

🤣   ROFLMAO!
No, it isn't kinda ironic, it is hugely and gloriously ironic, it is the AA-12 of irony, OTT and slap-in-the-face-with-a-steel-gauntlet ironic.

• Spend 20 minutes going over the weapon tables.
• Pick the biggest baddest thing you can get your hands on.
• Jump through all sorts of hoops so that yor character can get thier hands on one
• Run into Mythos Nasty (TM) 
• "Tink"

Although I muss confess to running a RQ3 game where I sent  a PC out on a quest to get a magical sword to fight a dragon only to have a somewhat similar result ("tink"). But at least the implaes got through the 24 point armor. THe look on the players face on that first "tink" will stay with me the rest of my days. PC won, BTW.

Just now, g33k said:

To be fair, of course, CoC is (afaik) kinda the RPG that invented the whole "accurate historical details in RPGs" schtick, often including bringing physical props (pseudo-news-clippings, train tickets, incriminating personal letters, and other clues) to the gaming-table, &c.  To some degree, weapons in CoC are just an aspect of that obsession... but also, to some degree they are not.

I don't think it was the first, but it probably was the game that made such things widespread, and I think that might have been because it was one of the early games to be set in the real world, rather than a fantasy world. So they had all this real world stuff to draw from. It would have been foolish not to use that as a soruce.

[Atgxtg]

9 minutes ago, g33k said:

My uncle commanded a machine-gun nest for the USMC in Viet Nam.
He cited me the survival statistic that, if all they had for protection was some sandbags, the average survival time of the machine gun nest was about 30sec after opening up.  Once the other side knew there was an active nest, they became THE target.

Yup. I've seen and read several similar accounts about guys with flamethrowers, automatic rifles and such. As soon as one guy stands out as a greater threat they become everyone's #1 target.

I've seen the same thing happen in RPGs too. We had a game session in Bond where the GM gave the bad guys a M2 Browing on thier boat, not realizing just how nasty that was in the game. My character literally spent the entire firefight with an AR-7 (I think?) doing specific shots to the head to kill anyone who went near the .50 cal.  Had they got off one attack they could have killed our whole speedboat, and all the PCs.