Gritty Scifi Weapons compatible with BRP? Can be from other systems, some conversion notes would be helpful but not mandatory :)

[jfr4lyfe]

1 hour ago, Ian_W said:

It is how money works when you're from somewhere - like 40k - where it is more important who you know than how much cash you have.

 

This is true in the real world as well. There are plenty of people with the money to buy, say, a French main battle tank with the good optics and whatnot. But they can't buy such a thing with mere money.

What I mean is, it works for that as it isn't actually about the money per se, but wouldn't work for my setting where it's all megacorps and money is king. Also it's a bit loose how you would arbitrate it. And mostly, if I go into a shop, something costs an amount, I can by it. If the shop doesn't have it or I don't have the money, I can't. They don't ask for my hierarchy or background, and I think that would extrapolate to a corporation run future where life is cheap and only the rich thrive.
 

[Atgxtg]

2 hours ago, Ian_W said:

 

 

This is true in the real world as well. There are plenty of people with the money to buy, say, a French main battle tank with the good optics and whatnot. But they can't buy such a thing with mere money.

Or Pepsi Points. Still no Harrier.

[Atgxtg]

3 hours ago, jfr4lyfe said:

I'd like somewhere between traveller type system where you get paid for jobs and speculated trade, and rolling against a money stat. I like the idea of having it abstracted but then how do you ever get better gear and what's the limit if you say the players can have something more rare/expensive.

Sounds like what you want is the system from The One Ring . There you got a Standard Of Living/Wealth Level, that determined what sort of gear you could have, but you also earned Treasure would could be saved up to raise your standard of living, or used up to get things that were above your Standard. So a rich merchant could start off with a horse, while a poor woodman would have to use treasure to get one.

 

3 hours ago, jfr4lyfe said:

In the BGB for instance it's stat to roll against. But what if I just completed a big job? What criteria for getting different gear? Why count some of the costs and not others. The only way I can see it properly working is to just count everything.

Yeah. The BGB has no econmic system to speak of. RQ3 had an excellent ecomic system, but required you to keep track of your money. In the BGB's defense though, since it is a generic book covering any sortof setting, there is really no good way to handle money that works everywhere. Yeah GURPS keeps redefining the $ for every setting but it doesn't really work all that well. Any economic system worth using has to reflect the setting. 

3 hours ago, jfr4lyfe said:

I like the idea of 'usage' dice for somethings; like food and water, but not more expensive items?

Well you could give PCs a die pool. When they try to buy something above their Standard of Living,  they have to spend one or more dice, which are rolled to see if they make the purchase. A PC could get a certain number of dice each week/fortnight/month/etc. equal to thier Standard of Living, and extra dice could be awarded as pay for completing jobs. 

 

3 hours ago, jfr4lyfe said:

Equipment in 40k for instance,  you just roll against a stat taking rarity into account. So I can have anything as long as the dice are in my favour and get nothing if they aren't.  That's not how money works 🤷‍♂️. And how many shops are there? Can characters just spend al their days looking for shops and rolling until they hit the jackpot?

The problem with abstract money systems - they don't work. They're not really supposed to. Most people who use such a system don't wan't to be bothered wit money but want some method of limited what the players can get access too. Ususally it's "good enough" for play because the game isn't focused on money. Most Superhero RPGs can get by that way. No one really cares if Spider-Man can afford bubblegum, they just want to see him scrambling to pay the rent. 

Edited December 19, 2023 by Atgxtg

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

Or Pepsi Points. Still no Harrier.

oh, that was you?

Hey man... I'm still pullin' for ya!

 

 

😁

[SDLeary]

5 hours ago, jfr4lyfe said:

I think armour will be a part of the setting definitely. Probably using variable AV. It's a scifi space horror, a cross between the expanse and alien with some body horror thrown in for good measure

Silly question, but have you looked at River of Heaven? A bit more along the line to Traveller than Expanse, but already has a lot of the legwork done. The is (was) also Cthulhu Rising. Both of these are by John Ossoway. The former is much easier to find, and much easier on the wallet.

SDLeary

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

oh, that was you?

No, but it's true, somebody didn't get their Harrier.

1 hour ago, g33k said:

Hey man... I'm still pullin' for ya!

Well for him anyway. He should have won that in court. Pepsi did run an ad for thier contest claiming that you could get the thing with enough points. How is that not fraud? At least with the Joe Isuzu commercials they would post "He's Lying" underneath outrageous statements. 

1 hour ago, g33k said:

😁

✈️☹️

Oh 💯 for getting the reference. You can't trade them in for anything though. 😒

[jfr4lyfe]

15 hours ago, Ian_W said:

This is true in the real world as well. There are plenty of people with the money to buy, say, a French main battle tank with the good optics and whatnot. But they can't buy such a thing with mere money.

But I'm sure with enough money, one could buy a tank. Again, I'm fairly sure that arms traders don't care where you get the money from. You'd probably have to store it somewhere where laws are a bit more lax (or just do a 'Falling Down' like michael douglas 🙂)

 

12 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Sounds like what you want is the system from The One Ring . There you got a Standard Of Living/Wealth Level, that determined what sort of gear you could have, but you also earned Treasure would could be saved up to raise your standard of living, or used up to get things that were above your Standard. So a rich merchant could start off with a horse, while a poor woodman would have to use treasure to get one.

Yes, something like that would work for me. TBH if I'd thought about it properly I probably could've worked that one out lol

 

Also, usage die from 'The black Hack' work really well - you get a die (say d10) for something (say water) and when you consume it, you roll. On a 1 you go down a die type until you roll a 1 on a d4 and that means you have run out. Different things have different die types. I would love to figure out a way to extrapolate that system so that it could be used for large monetary sums. Maybe things cost a die step or something. Costly items cost 2-3 steps. And jobs pay an amount of die of a certain type.

 

Also I think the 40k stuff works well for 40k, (At least in dark heresy) as you are part of a service which has access to anything it might need. It does seem like they missed a few rules out though, like how often one can roll (unless I missed that somewhere) I think these things are probably at the GM discretion, my problem is I mainly play with me and my brother these days, I play one player character and do the GM stuff usiing as much random chance and generative rolls as possible, so obviously I want to make it so I can't just have access to anything and on the other hand don't have access to enough

[jfr4lyfe]

10 hours ago, SDLeary said:

Silly question, but have you looked at River of Heaven? A bit more along the line to Traveller than Expanse, but already has a lot of the legwork done. The is (was) also Cthulhu Rising. Both of these are by John Ossoway. The former is much easier to find, and much easier on the wallet.

SDLeary

Nope, I've got a couple of the BRP/Mythras scifi settings but the gear selection is minimal. Thanks for the suggestions I'll check them out!

[SDLeary]

<deleted> 

Edited December 19, 2023 by SDLeary
broken links

[Atgxtg]

4 hours ago, jfr4lyfe said:

But I'm sure with enough money, one could buy a tank. Again, I'm fairly sure that arms traders don't care where you get the money from.

Maybe not, but they usually care where they get their money from, or at least their governments do.  Basically if a trader gets caught selling arms to someone they shouldn't, the government swoops down n penalized the company and the people involved. Just how badly varies on the item, circumstances and quantities.

Keep in mind that one thing that all government officials want to do is to remain in power, and the best threat to them doing so is if somebody who doesn't like them can get their hands on military grade weapons and vehicles. Or if someone who doesn't like someone who does like them get their hands on military grade weapons and vehicles, and threaten said ally, causing the ally to hold it against the official.

For instance, imagine if some US company sold some tanks, under the table to some people from France who then used the tanks to storm Paris. THe French would not be happy about it, and would let the US Government know that in no uncertain terms. THe US Government, in turn would be very unhappy with said US company, and take action.

 

Now yes, there all all sorts of ways around this, but they are less about money are more about ways to smuggle and cheat. Basically in BRP terms you could probably up the price of the item at least one level (maybe more depending on how hot the item is. Smuggling walnuts or even arms ammo is one thing, smuggling backpack nukes, that's something else. You would probbly need to add in some skill rolls to see how the traders get pass the authorities and such. 

 

4 hours ago, jfr4lyfe said:

You'd probably have to store it somewhere where laws are a bit more lax

Yeah, but for modern military hardware you usually have to have friend$ in the local government who are willing to look the other way, for a cut. That assumes, that there will be no blowback on said Friend$ later on. 

I know Europeans think every American has a machegun, and two stinger missiles in the trunk of their Abrams tank, but in truth it's not that simple to get most weapons. Anymore more that a handgun, hunting rile or shotgun is typically unavailable to civilians, and in states where it is available it is restricted to licensed collectors, who can have all of their licenses revoked for any sort of violation. 

4 hours ago, jfr4lyfe said:

 

(or just do a 'Falling Down' like michael douglas 🙂)

Or do a "tank' like James Gardner?

To be honest most military vehicles in civilian hands are obsolete vehicles that don't have working guns or ammo. Yeah someone who rank amok in a Sherman Tank could pose a problem to law enforcement, but not for long, as the military would be called in to handle the situation if necessary. Oh, and in real life governments run background checks on the people who buy this sort of stuff before they are issued the paperwork that allows them to do so, specially to avoid someone doing donuts with thier tank in front of city hall.

 

4 hours ago, jfr4lyfe said:

 

Yes, something like that would work for me. TBH if I'd thought about it properly I probably could've worked that one out lol

Well, most people can work out most of this stuff, but why reinvent the wheel?

4 hours ago, jfr4lyfe said:

Also, usage die from 'The black Hack' work really well - you get a die (say d10) for something (say water) and when you consume it, you roll. On a 1 you go down a die type until you roll a 1 on a d4 and that means you have run out. Different things have different die types. I would love to figure out a way to extrapolate that system so that it could be used for large monetary sums. Maybe things cost a die step or something. Costly items cost 2-3 steps. And jobs pay an amount of die of a certain type.

Yup. That's similar to what the One Ring Does with treasure and stand of living. 

4 hours ago, jfr4lyfe said:

 

Also I think the 40k stuff works well for 40k, (At least in dark heresy) as you are part of a service which has access to anything it might need. It does seem like they missed a few rules out though, like how often one can roll (unless I missed that somewhere) I think these things are probably at the GM discretion, my problem is I mainly play with me and my brother these days, I play one player character and do the GM stuff usiing as much random chance and generative rolls as possible, so obviously I want to make it so I can't just have access to anything and on the other hand don't have access to enough

Yeah, but I think the main reason why it works so well is that it has an established setting and some sort of economic system tailored to how the players will want to spend money. The problem with prices in the BGB is that the game is generic with no specific setting. So you don't really know what gear would be available,  how the economy would work. It's easy to know what a Glock 17 should cost in the modern world, but not so easy to guess what it would cost a couple of centuries from now, in a world with laser pistols, or a couple of centuries ago before magazines with metallic cartridges were a thing. 

[Ian_W]

6 hours ago, jfr4lyfe said:

But I'm sure with enough money, one could buy a tank. Again, I'm fairly sure that arms traders don't care where you get the money from. You'd probably have to store it somewhere where laws are a bit more lax (or just do a 'Falling Down' like michael douglas 🙂)

 

*A* tank ? Yep. It's quite possible to buy very old, very obsolete tanks.

A modern French main battle tank (and the French are the lowest of low paperwork arms suppliers) with modern optics ? Nope. *Ukraine* can't buy those tanks, as of December 2023, and they are a friendly state being supplied with all sorts of French gear.

Arms vendors are very aware that the guns you sell today can be turned against you tomorrow, and that won't change in the far future.

In a megacorp-dominated universe, expect them to keep the best stuff for themselves - after all, your professional rivals will absolutely be buying samples of what you make for testing, and you need to keep some carrots for your best, and therefore most trusted, customers.

[Ian Absentia]

2 hours ago, Ian_W said:

Arms vendors are very aware that the guns you sell today can be turned against you tomorrow, and that won't change in the far future.

In a megacorp-dominated universe, expect them to keep the best stuff for themselves - after all, your professional rivals will absolutely be buying samples of what you make for testing, and you need to keep some carrots for your best, and therefore most trusted, customers.

Or perhaps in the far future they'll take a page from current-day Monsanto with their "terminator seeds", and sell single- or selective-use products that can be used only within a specific theater of engagement.  They automatically brick themselves if applied more broadly or against unauthorised targets.  A prospective user may find themselves up against a paywall to extend the licensing agreement of that crate of arms they've just shipped in.

!i!

[Gundamentalist]

On 12/16/2023 at 4:52 PM, rsanford said:

* I forgot something... Though not a guide of futuristic weapons, Sixtystone Press' Investgator Weapons Volume 2 is 244 pages of modern weapon goodness for Call of Cthulhu / BRP. Unfortunately I don't think its still being offered but you might find it on Amazon or Ebay.

Hi RSanford, Investigator Weapons 2: Modern never went away, it's still available on DTRPG.

As is Investigator Weapons 3: Gaslight.

We had to withdraw Investigator Weapons 1: Jazz Age to make it 7e compatible. It will be back very soon in the New Year. Maybe that's what you meant?

Anyways to celebrate IW2 still being available, here's a link to get the IW2 PDF for US $10 at DTRPG (that's half-price), valid until Boxing Day (26 Dec 2023).

Adding to the conversation - weapon conversion is a fraught subject and I wish you the best of luck. I've learnt you have to eyeball the results and tweak the results that don't feel right. Luckily I have Hans on my team as well.

[rsanford]

3 hours ago, Gundamentalist said:

Hi RSanford, Investigator Weapons 2: Modern never went away, it's still available on DTRPG.

As is Investigator Weapons 3: Gaslight.

We had to withdraw Investigator Weapons 1: Jazz Age to make it 7e compatible. It will be back very soon in the New Year. Maybe that's what you meant?

Anyways to celebrate IW2 still being available, here's a link to get the IW2 PDF for US $10 at DTRPG (that's half-price), valid until Boxing Day (26 Dec 2023).

Adding to the conversation - weapon conversion is a fraught subject and I wish you the best of luck. I've learnt you have to eyeball the results and tweak the results that don't feel right. Luckily I have Hans on my team as well.

I'm sorry, somehow I got my wires crossed.. In that case, I highly, HIGHLY recommend SIxtystone Press in general and specifically Investigator Weapons 2: Modern!

Edited December 20, 2023 by rsanford

[1d8+DB]

So one thing you could do are  Gun Cherries (an idea used in Night's Black Agents from Pelgrane Press): minor mechanical effects that the  Play Characters can apply to their weapons; as a heavy pistol in the hands of a mook is just a heavy pistol; but a heavy pistol in the hands of a Player Character is a 'Kruge Arms S-2000 Special Model.' Let the Players create your weapon catalog.

I would consider asking for either a spend of temporary POW to active the Gun Cherry, or require a special success on the fire-arms roll; to reflect the  specialized training that the Player Character has to draw on to get the most of the weapon.

[rsanford]

On 12/19/2023 at 1:20 PM, Atgxtg said:

Maybe not, but they usually care where they get their money from, or at least their governments do.  Basically if a trader gets caught selling arms to someone they shouldn't, the government swoops down n penalized the company and the people involved. Just how badly varies on the item, circumstances and quantities.

Keep in mind that one thing that all government officials want to do is to remain in power, and the best threat to them doing so is if somebody who doesn't like them can get their hands on military grade weapons and vehicles. Or if someone who doesn't like someone who does like them get their hands on military grade weapons and vehicles, and threaten said ally, causing the ally to hold it against the official.

For instance, imagine if some US company sold some tanks, under the table to some people from France who then used the tanks to storm Paris. THe French would not be happy about it, and would let the US Government know that in no uncertain terms. THe US Government, in turn would be very unhappy with said US company, and take action.

 

Now yes, there all all sorts of ways around this, but they are less about money are more about ways to smuggle and cheat. Basically in BRP terms you could probably up the price of the item at least one level (maybe more depending on how hot the item is. Smuggling walnuts or even arms ammo is one thing, smuggling backpack nukes, that's something else. You would probbly need to add in some skill rolls to see how the traders get pass the authorities and such. 

 

Yeah, but for modern military hardware you usually have to have friend$ in the local government who are willing to look the other way, for a cut. That assumes, that there will be no blowback on said Friend$ later on. 

I know Europeans think every American has a machegun, and two stinger missiles in the trunk of their Abrams tank, but in truth it's not that simple to get most weapons. Anymore more that a handgun, hunting rile or shotgun is typically unavailable to civilians, and in states where it is available it is restricted to licensed collectors, who can have all of their licenses revoked for any sort of violation. 

Or do a "tank' like James Gardner?

To be honest most military vehicles in civilian hands are obsolete vehicles that don't have working guns or ammo. Yeah someone who rank amok in a Sherman Tank could pose a problem to law enforcement, but not for long, as the military would be called in to handle the situation if necessary. Oh, and in real life governments run background checks on the people who buy this sort of stuff before they are issued the paperwork that allows them to do so, specially to avoid someone doing donuts with thier tank in front of city hall.

 

Well, most people can work out most of this stuff, but why reinvent the wheel?

Yup. That's similar to what the One Ring Does with treasure and stand of living. 

Yeah, but I think the main reason why it works so well is that it has an established setting and some sort of economic system tailored to how the players will want to spend money. The problem with prices in the BGB is that the game is generic with no specific setting. So you don't really know what gear would be available,  how the economy would work. It's easy to know what a Glock 17 should cost in the modern world, but not so easy to guess what it would cost a couple of centuries from now, in a world with laser pistols, or a couple of centuries ago before magazines with metallic cartridges were a thing. 

A slight tangent but... after I started reading this thread, i wondered if civilians could own a tank and I found this...

 

Note, given the driver is driving on the left side of the road, this is probably in th UK somewhere.  I haven't ever seen a vehicle like this, but some Googling makes me think it might be a varient of the UK Scorpion? I bet that thing uses a lot of diesel!

I  also found a place in Uvalde, TX that advertises that customers may drive and shoot tanks including WWII, and cold war tanks (notably both Russian and German). See here -> https://www.drivetanks.com/tanks-tracks/

 

[g33k]

Yeah, it's technically legal to own a (de-militarized, i.e. no working weapons, no classified comms/etc systems) tank in the USA... I believe even a modern one like an M1 Abrams!  You just have to nerf it.  Obviously, even a "nerfed" main battle tank is an intimidating road-warrior!

Most places require modifications (headlights, turn signals, rubber cleats, etc) if you actually want to drive them on the roads... and most tanks don't actually fit into normal traffic lanes, so there's that issue for "street legality" too.

[Atgxtg]

6 hours ago, rsanford said:

A slight tangent but... after I started reading this thread, i wondered if civilians could own a tank and I found this...

LOL! Yes they can, spending on where they live and if they can pass a criminal background check. It even possible to own things like heavy machineguns, and such. Possible doesn't mean easy though. Usually you need to have some sort of "collector's licence" (not cheap or easy to get). There are a couple of youtube channels where they show weapons that are going up for auction, and it's surprising the things you can buy.

 

6 hours ago, rsanford said:

 

Note, given the driver is driving on the left side of the road, this is probably in th UK somewhere.  I haven't ever seen a vehicle like this, but some Googling makes me think it might be a varient of the UK Scorpion?

Good Guess. I think it's a FV107 Scimitar CRV-T (Combat Reconnaissance Vehicle Tracked). So technically it's a scout vehicle,  not a tank. It has a 30mm RARDEN that can fire and high explosive, and two types of armor piecing rounds. The Scimitar is from the early 1970s and is no longer in service.

I might just have BRP game stats for the thing, if you want them 

6 hours ago, rsanford said:

 

I bet that thing uses a lot of diesel!

And you'd win that bet. A full tank is 423 liters (111.74 US gallons) on which is can travel 644 km (400 miles) by road, with an operation range of 450 km (280 miles). So about 3.58 miles to the gallon.

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by Atgxtg

[soltakss]

On 12/18/2023 at 10:10 AM, jfr4lyfe said:

I get what you mean, however the megacorps have so much weight in my setting that I would like to distinguish from between manufacturers somehow. I think I remember the original mutant chronicles having different reliability rules so I'll possibly try and dig that out.

In that case, I would suggest having minor modifications to standard weapons, so you could have a larger battery for a blaster, or stabilisers, or even give brand little benefits, for example + 10 to hit, or no recoil.

 

[jfr4lyfe]

56 minutes ago, g33k said:

Yeah, it's technically legal to own a (de-militarized, i.e. no working weapons, no classified comms/etc systems) tank in the USA... I believe even a modern one like an M1 Abrams!  You just have to nerf it.  Obviously, even a "nerfed" main battle tank is an intimidating road-warrior!

Most places require modifications (headlights, turn signals, rubber cleats, etc) if you actually want to drive them on the roads... and most tanks don't actually fit into normal traffic lanes, so there's that issue for "street legality" too.

The insurance on it is going to be high though 🤣

 

11 minutes ago, soltakss said:

In that case, I would suggest having minor modifications to standard weapons, so you could have a larger battery for a blaster, or stabilisers, or even give brand little benefits, for example + 10 to hit, or no recoil.

Not a bad idea. I've been reading through your document the last few days and it's certainly very thorough! Which version of RQ is it based on? I was also toying with the idea of having different strike rank modifiers dependent on weapon type like RQ3 (slightly unrelated). In Mutant chronicles I think there is a difference how likely the weapon is to jam e.g. reliability. Which seems like it would still be an issue in a hostile, retro(gaffa-taped)-future

 

[soltakss]

4 minutes ago, jfr4lyfe said:

Not a bad idea. I've been reading through your document the last few days and it's certainly very thorough! Which version of RQ is it based on?

Thanks! It was based on RQ5, as that had an OGL Licence.  RQ5 is very similar to Legend or fairly similar to Mythras.

 

[jfr4lyfe]

On 12/19/2023 at 11:31 PM, Gundamentalist said:

Adding to the conversation - weapon conversion is a fraught subject and I wish you the best of luck. I've learnt you have to eyeball the results and tweak the results that don't feel right. Luckily I have Hans on my team as well.

Thanks of the input. I don;t have the confidence to eye-ball weapons yet (lol) but after this thread I'm certainly getting there. My issue is that I want it to be scaled with the characters while having a more futeristic feel. More deadly but also not. Perhaps weapons effects might be the way to go. Armour penetrating, heat effects and other things I haven't thought of yet.

Generally as well, how does this all scale to starship sized weapons? I've seen hit points used as normal and weapon damage being similar. But what happens if the starship fires on a character? I think it is traveller (could be wrong) where they say it does 10x damage

[g33k]

2 minutes ago, jfr4lyfe said:

... But what happens if the starship fires on a character? I think it is traveller (could be wrong) where they say it does 10x damage

IMO, if a ship-scale weapon hits a character, it's an auto-kill.

For those rare situations where the weapon is small-enough to even roll hit-location (if you're using them), then it destroys any limb, but is an auto-kill on a centerline hit.

[Atgxtg]

56 minutes ago, jfr4lyfe said:

The insurance on it is going to be high though 🤣

That's probably the least of your expenses. I mean, first you need to jump through all the hoops to get the proper permits and licenses ($$); then you have to buy the thing ($$$$$), ten you have to fill it with fuel (SS). 

Besides, all insurance are void if you go into a war zone. 

47 minutes ago, jfr4lyfe said:

Generally as well, how does this all scale to starship sized weapons? I've seen hit points used as normal and weapon damage being similar. But what happens if the starship fires on a character? I think it is traveller (could be wrong) where they say it does 10x damage

A direct hit is pretty much the end of the character (maybe a generous GM might give a PC a POWx1% chance to get thrown clear of the blast). There is a story about a tank that was unlucky enough tp suffer a direct hit from a naval shell. Not good. And that was a tank.

The tricky part is for the ship to hit  a man-sized target. Most big guns are designed for larger targets and probably can't place a round that accurately. Of course if the guns have a decent blast radius, you might not need to hit them, you only need to be in the right ballpark (literally).  

 

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

...

The tricky part is for the ship to hit  a man-sized target. Most big guns are designed for larger targets and probably can't place a round that accurately. Of course if the guns have a decent blast radius, you might not need to hit them, you only need to be in the right ballpark (literally).  

In the real modern day, precision-guided munitions have as good as a 1-meter accuracy... that they are willing to admit in unclassified documents.

I have no problem envisioning a future weapon which could target an individual porthole... if someone were stupid enough to put such a thing on their combat starship.