Dwarven Ceramists

[Erol of Backford]

Discussion regarding The Kiln in Nochet and brickmaking has me thinking that Dwarves would be the quintessential ceramicists in Glorantha?

Read about Jolanti creation which seems close to ceramics?

Joerg said: Clay dwarfs are one of those badly diminished Elder Race expressions. Their self-replication mechanic stolen from Grower (or finally implemented from the Man Rune, unlike their elders), they are somewhat expendable repair crew following the Gold foreman exegesis of the available copies of the origin...

Are Clay Dwarves made in molds and what work order made the original Clay Dwarves?

I am guessing Clay Dwarves would be the ceramists?

The dwarves might be to high and mighty to use terracotta whereas humans would do so for pottery and bricks. Dwarves would wish for perfection and would use molds rather than a potters wheel, just guessing at least those that are traditionalists?

One rumor states the dwarvish ceramists intend to perfect their adiabatic turbo-compound steam engine(s) as part of the repair of the World Machine.

Do dwarves use "living clay" to make these engines?

Are the molds for flintlocks and blunderbusses made of ceramic material which are more resistant to high temps or do they use sorcery to make the weapon components?

 

 

 

 

[Joerg]

2 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Discussion regarding The Kiln in Nochet and brickmaking has me thinking that Dwarves would be the quintessential ceramicists in Glorantha?

Read about Jolanti creation which seems close to ceramics?

Joerg said: Clay dwarfs are one of those badly diminished Elder Race expressions. Their self-replication mechanic stolen from Grower (or finally implemented from the Man Rune, unlike their elders), they are somewhat expendable repair crew following the Gold foreman exegesis of the available copies of the origin...

Are Clay Dwarves made in molds and what work order made the original Clay Dwarves?

I am guessing Clay Dwarves would be the ceramists?

The dwarves might be to high and mighty to use terracotta whereas humans would do so for pottery and bricks. Dwarves would wish for perfection and would use molds rather than a potters wheel, just guessing at least those that are traditionalists?

One rumor states the dwarvish ceramists intend to perfect their adiabatic turbo-compound steam engine(s) as part of the repair of the World Machine.

Do dwarves use "living clay" to make these engines?

Are the molds for flintlocks and blunderbusses made of ceramic material which are more resistant to high temps or do they use sorcery to make the weapon components?

 

 

 

 

Clay dwarfs are the conceptual copy of the various races of humans made from clay (like the Agitorani, the first Dara Happans, the Thinobutan ancestors, the second children of Vimorn etc. etc.) rather than the result of ceramics. The clay in question definitely is unfired.

Jolanti are carved out of living stone, quite different from golems shaped with wet clay and then fired in a kiln before receiving their written OS. No idea which mad magicians build these in Glorantha, if anywhere.

Dwarfs are renowned for masonry, working rock into building blocks. They also know concrete, poured rock. While they could work with fired bricks, I don't see much to inspire them to go in that direction.

Rather than pottery, dwarfs delight in the use of glass produced by the Lead caste, and their notion of ceramics probably comes as semi-molten rock inside glazed surfaces. In cooperation with rock dwarfs, they might produce glazed concrete containers if blown glass bottles (not necessarily made of clear glass) don't serve.

The other high temperature caste of the Mostali are the brass mostali, and they might have an interest in heat-resistant chamotte. Possibly provided by a cooperation of Rock, Lead and Quicksilver caste brethren.

 

[Revilo Divad Of Dyoll]

But there may be a dwarven heresy, Ceramicism, that believes that clay dwarves can be improved and perfected (all clay dwarves, as opposed to merely the few who become diamond dwarves).

[radmonger]

There has always been a bit of wierdness about the term 'Clay Mostali', as it is on a list of occupational castes but is also a description that applies almost all existing mostali.

The ancient 8 metals give you Octamonism, the two innovations of death-wielding and self-replication give you Decamonism, in the form of Iron and Clay dwarves,

I would say a True Clay Mostali made the first clay Mostali, who were of the full range of castes. Which includes the clay Clay Mostali, who manage the replication and repair of further clay Mostali of all castes. Their occupational skills and caste magic are rather similar to that of an Earth priestess; Stabilise Pregnancy and Repair Flesh.

This is presumably a secret the Mostali deem so shameful they have not permitted it to be disclosed in even the recent Earth Goddesses sourcebook. Which instead makes the unconvincing argument that Diamond, but somehow not True, is the 10th occupational caste.

Edited January 22 by radmonger

[mfbrandi]

On 1/20/2024 at 1:39 PM, Joerg said:

The clay in question definitely is unfired

1 hour ago, Revilo Divad Of Dyoll said:

[b]ut there may be a dwarven heresy, Ceramicism, that believes that clay dwarves can be improved and perfected

“Submit to the kiln, burn away impurity, and become perfect.” At which point it all goes a bit Logan’s Run.

Spoiler

The paranoid take is that by torching the clay dwarfs foolish enough to fall for this, the “race” really is being “improved” by some very shady Mostali “eugenicists”.

[Erol of Backford]

32 minutes ago, radmonger said:

I would say a True Clay Mostali made the first clay Mostali, who were of the full range of castes. Which includes the clay Clay Mostali, who manage the replication and repair of further clay Mostali of all castes. Their occupational skills and caste magic are rather similar to that of an Earth priestess; Stabilise Pregnancy and Repair Flesh.

When dwarves are made is it like an assembly line with parts, are they actually bionic, totally and do they use repair spells? Are dwarves truly alive as far as humans and Elves think on it, do the breathe, grown and get old? Are their cells dying and reproducing, do they have DNA and of course what color is their blood either when oxidized or not? Do they and or other Gloranthians bleed red? There was a note that Lanstarings, IIRC bled blue or purple?

If they are actually organic or their are organics in their systems are they not heretical themselves?

[Erol of Backford]

3 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

“Submit to the kiln, burn away impurity, and become perfect.” At which point it all goes a bit Logan’s Run.

So how old would a dwarf be when they are recycled, say in median number of years?

[Sir_Godspeed]

20 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

When dwarves are made is it like an assembly line with parts, are they actually bionic, totally and do they use repair spells? Are dwarves truly alive as far as humans and Elves think on it, do the breathe, grown and get old? Are their cells dying and reproducing, do they have DNA and of course what color is their blood either when oxidized or not? Do they and or other Gloranthians bleed red? There was a note that Lanstarings, IIRC bled blue or purple?

If they are actually organic or their are organics in their systems are they not heretical themselves?

I don't think ANYONE in Glorantha have DNA, to be honest.

[Joerg]

As a rule, clay dwarfs aren't produced from clay any more, much like humans aren't - that would beat the purpose. Instead, they replicate through a Growth process carefully supervised and as soon as possible turned over to a Making conditioning. Engaging in that Growth process, and acknowledging the possession of (and performance of) sexes is deeply disturbing to the clay dwarfs selected to perform that duty.

Dwarf bodies do have a source code - it relies heavily on the Man Rune, of course, refined with all manner of internal and job-induced refinements. Living Rock, Elder Mostali, clay mostali all can be healed through application of the Harmony rune and perhaps a small side order of Fertility/life. Nolonger quite as alive material can be imbued using the Stabilize sorcerous rituals.

The most detailed study on dwarf physiology is (ironically) in Troll Pak, where the nutritional reception of dwarf bodies or body parts by the troll digestive system is discussed. To human and troll eyes, dwarf blood probably is red.

Blood enabling life tends to be red, blood carrying out death tends to turn blue. Death is collected by the air in the lungs and spread out, until overcome by Aldryami efforts to keep things growing.

40 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I don't think ANYONE in Glorantha have DNA, to be honest.

I would assume everyone has some Divinely Notated Ancestry immanent in their bodies that will lead to their bodies developing in a certain way. Most likely not in the shape of a double helix of desoxyribonucleic acid, I agree.

 

 

[mfbrandi]

5 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

So how old would a dwarf be when they are recycled, say in median number of years?

Dunno, really, but if we run with my idiotic suggestion, perhaps it depends on the needs of the particular dwarf community at a particular time — for example, if many clay units are showing dysfunctional/heretical tendencies — a “defective batch”? — then encourage the kiln cult and specify a renewal date just a little above their median age. When the disruptive dwarfs have been dealt with, retire the kiln cult till it is “needed” again.

But in the guise of Dora Downer, I am imagining the kiln cult as something foolish and morally indefensible, not a charming quirk. Perhaps a cult member escapes renewal and writes a memoir to warn foolish young dwarfs — My Life in the Thrill Kiln Cult?

[Erol of Backford]

On 1/22/2024 at 4:39 PM, mfbrandi said:

My Life in the Thrill Kiln Cult

and the Boom Gang Girls, (They are an elite bunch of female dwarves that use somewhat oversized blunderbusses) never leave that off because a Girl Can't be Killed by a Make-believe Lover.. Cause its Hot.

The Boom Gang Girls were developed as a western dwarvish counter to the Black Arkati - Kobakuruun. They were founded at Bad Deal and have spread from there. They developed their own explosive - incendiary devices generally centered of sorcerous animated ceramic golems. There is a famed LM Sage named Damien Love out of Nochet who wrote a thesis about this entitled Monstrous Devices. The dwarvish ladies entertain themselves by disguising the claymation monsters as someone the target trusts so it is able to get close and even kiss them. When a contract is taken out on someone to be assassinated they are basically requesting "a kiss of death" from the Boom Gang.

With a 98% kill ratio the Boom Gang Girls are in high demand. Some assassins' cults as far as Lake Felster from Bad Deal in the Nidan Mts. have disbanded, relocated and or were run out of business by the Gang. Rumor has it that some in the Lunar Empire wish to replace Dart War Assassins with these Monstrous Devices.

It is said that from ceramic fragments and the spirit that was bound into the Mostrous Device in question, Mr. Love conducted extensive Reconstruction spells (at a large cost paid in unenchanted iron) to actually assist the Gang in perfecting there devices as to force projection/trajectory resulting in controlled blasts that the target embraced can be killed without damaging the sofa, chair or even the clothing the target is wearing. I mean, who'd want expensive magical heirloom jewelry damaged or destroyed when it need not be. Of course earrings are not able to be avoided when the entire head is blow to small bits. Even with this selective death being possible it is more common to have powerful explosive devices obliterate entire clan meeting halls.... why kill just one of the rival clan or house members.

In some cases the unenchanted and thus nearly undetectable iron outer shell had been filled with black powder, and miniballs numbering in the thousands...

They animate ceramic cast humanoids and animals that house various types of black powder explosive devices.

Edited January 24 by Erol of Backford

[radmonger]

17 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

When dwarves are made is it like an assembly line with parts, are they actually bionic, totally and do they use repair spells?

Once the were, and they would like you to think they still are. Every clay dwarves first memory is of coming out of a machine, and they could visit the personnel department any time they had a reason to. Only the Clay Dwarves know that the machine in that department is broken. And so, as a makeshift hack, initial conception takes place in utero. Some old Celestial Court magic (Transfer Pregnancy) is repurposed to perform the transfer to the development matrix appropriate to the required caste.

Edited January 23 by radmonger

[mfbrandi]

7 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

claymation

Aha! This is how we square the circle of the god of machines — which need — and (short of feeding M. to the Devouring Mother): time is a series of static frames; Mostali quantum theory. “M” is for Mostal and Morph.

8 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

outer shell had been filled with black powder, and miniballs numbering in the thousands

And you have cracked the Scottish dwarf problem: outsiders heard “mumble mumble mumble Claymore mumble mumble” and jumped to the wrong conclusion.

[Erol of Backford]

16 hours ago, radmonger said:

And so, as a makeshift hack, initial conception takes place in utero. Some old Celestial Court magic (Transfer Pregnancy) is repurposed to perform the transfer to the development matrix appropriate to the required caste.

So what you are saying is that Dwarves are actually organic, bioengineered, then grown and finally mechanically enhanced when decomposition sets in?

Wouldn't that be the worst sort of dwarven heresy?

[radmonger]

5 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Wouldn't that be the worst sort of dwarven heresy?

The heresy would be thinking this is a good idea, rather than a necessary but expedient workaround for a temporary malfunction. And that that 'malfunction' is not local to the current complex, but everyone else is experiencing the same thing.

https://discworld.fandom.com/wiki/Cheery_Littlebottom

 

[Erol of Backford]

On 1/23/2024 at 4:31 AM, radmonger said:

Only the Clay Dwarves know that the machine in that department is broken.

Does every dwarven stronghold have dwarf fabrication machines, molds, etc?

Who knows where these are located or is there only one set?

Along the same lines there are only a few dwarvish enclaves actually described in detail that I am aware:

Haunted Ruins - old Silver Statue area small but detailed enough.

Flintnail in Pavis - new and detailed by Mr. T.

RQA Dwarf Mine - minimal info, an oldie but a goodie.

There was also the bit below Dwarf Knoll in The Shadows of Pavis.

Does anyone have other detailed dwarf locations they know of?

 

[jajagappa]

9 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Does anyone have other detailed dwarf locations they know of?

Are you talking worldwide, or just Dragon Pass/Prax?

If the latter, then also the Dwarf Palace in Boldhome (currently closed) and Greatway in the Rockwood Mountains.

[Erol of Backford]

11 hours ago, jajagappa said:

worldwide

Was looking for anything published that details dwarven areas, tunnels, cave complexes, etc. and what source. Thank you Sir

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

anything published that details dwarven areas, tunnels, cave complexes, etc. and what source. Thank you Sir

I don't recall anything else published for Glorantha that would give you that.

[davecake]

On 1/23/2024 at 12:35 AM, Erol of Backford said:

When dwarves are made is it like an assembly line with parts, are they actually bionic, totally and do they use repair spells?

*Local Mostali begin screaming and freaking as their deeply suppressed memories of how dwarves are made surface*

On 1/23/2024 at 12:37 AM, Erol of Backford said:

So how old would a dwarf be when they are recycled, say in median number of years?

It’s not about the actual number of years, it’s when their apparent ages rises due the subtle aging that comes from heresy and falling from the way of Mostal. The Quality Controllers examine dwarves, and those that look a little bit too old may be assumed to be suspect, and marked for recycling? Rumors that some dwarves may resort to cosmetics, clothing that makes look younger, exercise classes, etc to keep looking youthful are surely just non-dwarves misunderstanding. 
Exposed to non-Mostali culture are at particular risk - perhaps some might have found them good markets for potions that are guaranteed to keep you looking youthful? 

[davecake]

We know how Jolanti are made. And certain lesser imitation Jolanti too. 
 

But what about nilmergs? They appear biological, and quite similar to dwarves? Where do they come from? Are they, perhaps, what happens when an dwarven infant (whatever the process that got them to that point) is found to be not suitable for further processing? 
 

And what hellish process creates a gunpowder gobbler? 

[Joerg]

5 hours ago, davecake said:

And what hellish process creates a gunpowder gobbler? 

Sounds like a contraption with a number of sorcerous spells enmeshed with one another. Sorcerous spells are a lot like spirits (at least IMG), and there may be a Gold Caste controlling spell coordinating the other caste tasks the gobbler needs to perform.

Gobblers are fire-and-forget weapons, not expected to last long. It is fine if they get destroyed when they have consumed the targeted stuff, ideally causing collateral damage in their destruction.

 

Nilmergs appear to be similar to embodied helpful household spirits ("Heinzelmännchen"), cheerfully fulfilling their assigned (usually limited) tasks. Their inner workings don'T seem to have received any detailed study yet - there might be clockwork, there might be golem-technology, there might be bones and muscles or reproductions thereof.

I can recall no information about the life cycle or duration of nilmergs. Their destructive cousins tend to have a short life expectancy when targeting absconded Mostali technology/sorcery.

The theory about unviable proto-dwarf modules, recycled in order to serve some limited purpose, doesn't quite account for the (presumed) number of nilmergs found assisting the dwarfs (IMO a ratio of 1:1 or better, not quite approaching the trollkin per troll ratio).

We haven't heard about Itsolam, defective mostali sent out to sabotage enemies, which makes me a bit dubious about the "dross of dwarf production" theory.

[Erol of Backford]

14 hours ago, davecake said:

It’s not about the actual number of years, it’s when their apparent ages rises due the subtle aging that comes from heresy and falling from the way of Mostal.

So it is like Logan's Run and the dwarves that don't wish to die run or should I say waddle?! (hehe)

[Erol of Backford]

14 hours ago, davecake said:

We know how Jolanti are made. And certain lesser imitation Jolanti too. 

I already forgot where but I noted a source earlier in this thread. Its a cool quest and the PC's will gather the materials at some time... no dwarf in the party but maybe a pavis descendant will count as they were part dwarvish?

The silver statue is interesting as well...

Edited January 30 by Erol of Backford

[davecake]

5 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

I already forgot where but I noted a source earlier in this thread. Its a cool quest and the PC's will gather the materials at some time... no dwarf in the party but maybe a pavis descendant will count as they were part dwarvish?

In the Bestiary, it’s just a big damn ritual, that requires among other things a big iron vat, and a Tin Diamond dwarf, so large Mostali cities are probably capable of creating Jolanti pretty regularly, but it’s pretty difficult for smaller Mostali groups to create any. I interpret it as making the Jolanti into living stone again, and as a result can’t rely on conventional stone masonry (the limbs must move because are living, not mechanically, and be a single piece of stone). Without a Tin Mostali or reasonable facsimile (Tin Diamond) they cannot bring it to life, and a statue enchanted with a spirit in it is quite different. Of course, there is a lot more potential for other enhancements. 
And I think the reason the Mostali don’t seem to around creating truly giant Jolanti, Faceless Stone Statue size, is that probably does require a Tin True Mostaki, plus a truly enormous vat. Maybe they had to be made of Living Stone at the time - eg before elves killed Stone in the Lesser Darkness. 
Note in Paris the Flintnail dwarves probably do a lot of working around these requirements by using parts of the Faceless Stone Statue instead of I burning the stone with life themselves. 

I also differ from most of this thread (though it’s funny) in that I don’t think dwarves are part mechanical, or fabricated mechanically. They try to transform themselves to have some of the characteristics of living metal alchemically (as well as become more suited to caste tasks). Cut them open, they are flesh, just tough and weirdly mineral. They are not stamped out of molds - but the process may include a fair bit of being marinated in vats. And yes, the application of heat is an alchemical process too. 
Diamond dwarfs are not cyborgs (at least, not the mechano-surgical kind), they are the result of incredibly difficult, expensive and unpleasant processes to try to transform themselves to be made of living metal like True Mostali (in the hopes that eventually the Mostali of old can be recreated). They probably do start as living clay, in their understanding (though with organs and stuff). 
Of course, the World Machine is a machine, but not a simple mechanical one (that is a basic symbolism/metaphor to make it comprehensible to mortal minds), but a magical and alchemical one. 
 

IMO a Flintnail cultist can count as part dwarf for these purposes - it’s what you know rather than mere ancestry, the Tin and Quicksilver dwarves have a lot of experience in adjusting properties of mortal bodies as needed. But they may need to transform themselves, temporarily or permanently, by some alchemical processes for some things. Of course those processes are somewhat untested on humans, and volunteers to continue the research are rare. 
Back in the time of Pavis, though, a glorious time for vital research into necessary metaphysical repair processes! Pavis and Flintnail worked together for groundbreaking research into the nature of the Man rune and mortality, and the magical manipulation of the Man rune. 
(FWIW, I think it’s obvious I thought the version of Flintnail and Pavis in Pavis: GTA for heroquest was extremely cool, and I’m a bit concerned the ‘back to RQ2’ tendencies of some current writing will revert it rather than run with it).