glarkhag Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 Hi, Can anyone tell me if this article: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/an-ancient-dawn-age-document-from-brithos/ was originally posted somewhere else? I had not seen it in the places I currently look and want to make sure I'm not missing out on a valuable source. Thanks 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajagappa Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 28 minutes ago, glarkhag said: was originally posted somewhere else? It was one of Jeff's FB posts collected on the Well of Daliath. I don't recall seeing it before (but perhaps appeared in one of Greg's Roots of Glorantha works?). Maybe @scott-martin knows? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott-martin Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 (edited) 2 hours ago, glarkhag said: I had not seen it in the places I currently look (thanks @jajagappa for observing that I rarely read #Runequest these days) This is from the early compilation "Records of the Malkioni" that ultimately gets bundled into The Seshnegi Book of Foreigners (Roots of Glorantha XII). None of what's lurking back there will impact anyone's sense of the setting . . . if it does, you have uncovered a Great Secret! The price of that is that nobody else knows what you know or is interested in communicating with you about it. I would view it as new / recovered information unavailable anywhere else and keep an eye on Jeff in the Facebook group for more. Careful fans will see that there are shocking blanks in the received history of the west. They haven't hurt us yet and have yet to prompt intense investigation. Why is that I wonder? But I will say that the tantalizing thing about this particular fragment is that it comes under the heading "The Sixth Caste of the Malkioni." Isn't that interesting? Granted, there's a word crossed out that "Malkioni" replaces, but that's probably just one of those typographical errors. The next section, even more tantalizing, is titled "The Rebellion of Kaldes" and then the page is blank! Edited February 1 by scott-martin a little more 4 1 Quote singer sing me a given Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joerg Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 35 minutes ago, scott-martin said: The next section, even more tantalizing, is titled "The Rebellion of Kaldes" and then the page is blank! What could the son of Zzabur and chief sorcerer of Brithos (after the retirement of his father) be rebelling against? The Engrions? 3 1 Quote Telling how it is excessive verbis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Brooke Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 In general, I view these things as the Tinfang Warbles and Trotter the Hobbits of Glorantha: discarded first drafts. Greg Stafford was a publisher, he could easily have shared this stuff with the world if he thought it worth doing, and he never did. But YGWV, of course. 1 1 Quote Community Ambassador - Jonstown Compendium, Chaosium, Inc. Email: nick.brooke@chaosium.com for community content queries Jonstown Compendium ⧖ Facebook Ф Twitter † old website Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajagappa Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 7 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said: In general, I view these things as the Tinfang Warbles and Trotter the Hobbits of Glorantha: discarded first drafts. Greg Stafford was a publisher, he could easily have shared this stuff with the world if he thought it worth doing, and he never did. But YGWV, of course. It's kind of like an archaeological dig - there's a lot of broken pots and vases to sift through. Sometimes you find interesting nuggets, sometimes you just see how the pieces evolved over time, and then there's all the stuff that really was just thrown out. 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott-martin Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 10 minutes ago, Joerg said: What could the son of Zzabur and chief sorcerer of Brithos (after the retirement of his father) be rebelling against? The Engrions? Ultimately we'll never know unless we fill that blank page ourselves with the best version we can come up with. If two or more versions emerge, the weight of MGF will decide which is more or less authentic . . . which addresses Nick's point. Hello everyone! 4 Quote singer sing me a given Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metcalph Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 (edited) The chief interesting point is the apparent idea that after breaking Brithini strictures, one could begin anew. That said, Hrestol should have known better than to carry around a sword even if he didn't plan on using it. I don't find the idea of Brithini Engroni compelling and even if the King felt there was some merit to the idea (which *is* a plausible reaction), it's difficult to see how he could get past any Zzaburi veto. I suspect the idea of Brtihini immortality being central to their conservatism wasn't thought about at the time. If I were to bring this up to date, I would say that King Erltof decided to hire Seshnegi Men-of-All Bodyguards* to protect himself and his Kingdom. That is something a dissatisfied King could do without breaking caste *and* it also provides grounds for the Rebellion of Kaldes. *I was thinking of the Numerus Batavorum to give you an idea of how the Brithini may have appreciated them. Edited February 2 by metcalph Added footnote 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott-martin Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 EGWV What's remarkable about this otherwise innocent fragment is that it feeds into a sense of Dawn Age Brithos as a politically dynamic place. Here's a privately circulated timeline providing some cryptic and of course impossibly ancient support for developments on the island in an "ENGR Era" lost to later zzaburcentric historical propaganda. It reached me free from encumbering book curses so I post it here in service to knowledge and the greater light of shared knowledge. 3 2 Quote singer sing me a given Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfbrandi Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 This keeps coming back to me: Engrion → Negroni. If only the Brithini had been the Campari, maybe people would have warmed to them a bit more. 2 Quote NOTORIOUS VØID CULTIST Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott-martin Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 (edited) 42 minutes ago, mfbrandi said: If only the Brithini had been the Campari, maybe people would have warmed to them a bit more. We should probably take this to #theories but if you take Greg's early encounter with Alan Stivell records seriously enough to read "Brithini" as a corruption of "Brezhon ys" or "Breton île" (see also "Prydain") then the obvious derivation of "Vadel" is "Gwad île," of or originating on the island of blood. This gives you two root alchemical factors, the white and the red, which are then refracted across their various castes. This one is for you, Greg. These are your two dragons in Vortigern's dream. The campari is of course on the red side. Edited February 2 by scott-martin forgot why we were here in the first place 2 1 Quote singer sing me a given Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 On 2/1/2024 at 12:25 PM, Nick Brooke said: In general, I view these things as the Tinfang Warbles and Trotter the Hobbits of Glorantha: discarded first drafts. Greg Stafford was a publisher, he could easily have shared this stuff with the world if he thought it worth doing, and he never did. But YGWV, of course. When we were working on this stuff, Greg told me that he viewed his earliest stuff as "mostly true" but filtered through the lens of another world and time. Like knights in medieval versions of the Old Testament (or for that matter medieval knights and bishops in Malkionism). 3 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Brooke Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 Obviously literary executors see things differently. That’s the only reason we know about Tinfang Warble and Trotter the Hobbit, after all. 1 Quote Community Ambassador - Jonstown Compendium, Chaosium, Inc. Email: nick.brooke@chaosium.com for community content queries Jonstown Compendium ⧖ Facebook Ф Twitter † old website Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jens Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 7 hours ago, Nick Brooke said: Obviously literary executors see things differently. Clearly a key difference between recovering and publishing old drafts after the author has died, and actively collabourating with them on a project. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metcalph Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 If I were to make Brithos a politically turbulent place, I would take a fragment from Cults of Terror which speaks of city states (in Arolanit) and rework it thus. Although Brithos had a King, the City Talars were supreme in their own cities. The Engrioni changed all that. Rather than travel to a city of a recalcitrant Talar to make him do his bidding, the King could send his Engrioni around instead. In response, the Talars hired their own Engrioni to impede those of the King. Before long, the stronger Talars soon discovered they could use their own Engrioni to coerce weaker Talars into becoming their vassals, additionally weakening the Kingdom. The demand for foreign troops explains why the Brithini would tolerate Arkat's Father running around on the Island and also a background to their civil war. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfbrandi Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 13 hours ago, Nick Brooke said: literary executors see things differently. That’s the only reason we know about Tinfang Warble and Trotter the Hobbit Of course, JRRT was no Kafka. Quote NOTORIOUS VØID CULTIST Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metcalph Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 FWIW, Engr - the God behind the term Engrioni - might be a technical term/snappy Brithini insult to describe the Malkion made Flesh ("Malkion [...] came forth to descend into the material world and bind himself within its limitations. As a result, Zzabur [...] rejected Malkion [...]" Cults of RuneQuest: Mythology p100). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanQuaife Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 Really enjoyed this thread. Personally "Engroni" does a lot more for me than "Knights". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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