Dodge Skill vs Parry Skill

[Shaira]

Hi all,

I'm just reading through BRP Zero and toying with a few ideas. One of these is separating Weapon Skill out into two separate Attack and Parry skills, a la Old RuneQuest.

The issue I see with the BRP rules is that because of the Dodge skill, it's hardly worth learning Parry as a separate skill for each weapon. Just Dodge all the time, whack up that one single skill as much as you can, and use it in all circumstances.

Now, if Attack and Parry are a single, dual purpose Weapon Skill (the BRP default option), then the dilemma doesn't arise - of course you want a good Weapon skill, so the choice of whether to use that Weapon Skill to parry, or a separate Dodge skill to dodge, is largely a matter of personal preference and how much damage the BEM is likely to do.

But with a separate Parry Skill - hell, then I'm just gonna Dodge, Dodge, Dodge!

Can anyone see a reason, other than Colour and Good Roleplaying , why you'd ever bother to run up a separate Parry Skill when a single Dodge Skill will serve all your purposes?

Cheers,

Sarah

[Triff]

Shields? Don't you need a skill to parry/use those? How does parrying with a shield compare to dodging by the way?

SGL.

[Celhan]

Can anyone see a reason, other than Colour and Good Roleplaying , why you'd ever bother to run up a separate Parry Skill when a single Dodge Skill will serve all your purposes?

I assume this means that the difference between dodges and parries has been scrapped? For example, in RQ3, there are a couple of reasons you'd want to parry instead of dodge:

1) If your opponent gets a Critical or Special Hit, your parry weapon or shield still subtracts damage on a successful roll. A successful dodge lets all that damage get through, unless you also got a special or critical success. This is a fairly serious objection to dodging... the very attacks you really, really want to avoid are the ones you are unlikely to be able to, even at a very high dodge skill. Special hits happen often enough to make this a scary prospect.

On that subject, does the new BRP allow Dodges to work against Special or Critical successes, say by reducing the level of success (e.g. successful dodge against special success attack = regular successful attack)?

2) If you're a starting character, your parry skill is goins to be around twenty percentiles higher than your dodge because of skill bases. Not an advantage to sneer at.

3) Dodge is affected by ENC on a 1 for 1 basis, but parries aren't (er... come to think of it, that's the way I've always played, I'm not sure if that's canonical in RQ).

Any of that stuff still work in BRP Zero?

[Shaira]

1) If your opponent gets a Critical or Special Hit, your parry weapon or shield still subtracts damage on a successful roll. A successful dodge lets all that damage get through, unless you also got a special or critical success. This is a fairly serious objection to dodging... the very attacks you really, really want to avoid are the ones you are unlikely to be able to, even at a very high dodge skill. Special hits happen often enough to make this a scary prospect.

I think you may be right. I've got a question with Jason on that point at the moment - the Attack / Parry table is a little unclear.

On that subject, does the new BRP allow Dodges to work against Special or Critical successes, say by reducing the level of success (e.g. successful dodge against special success attack = regular successful attack)?

Since I posted this thread, I've found some wording in the Dodge skill description that suggests Dodge might be an opposed roll in combat - I'm going to post this on the Clarifications thread & see what Jason comes back with. It'll be the cincher for this question if it is the case.

2) If you're a starting character, your parry skill is goins to be around twenty percentiles higher than your dodge because of skill bases. Not an advantage to sneer at.

Good point - for beginning characters this is certainly a key advantage.

3) Dodge is affected by ENC on a 1 for 1 basis, but parries aren't (er... come to think of it, that's the way I've always played, I'm not sure if that's canonical in RQ).

That's now an optional rule, but works just like that. However, -1% per 1 ENC over the limit isn't much of a penalty. Dodge is also a Physical skill, rather than an Agility skill, so isn't affected by bulky armour, which might have been an interesting touch.

Any of that stuff still work in BRP Zero?

Still trying to find out! In general, though, the rules are looking very consistent and well thought-out - just a bit different from what us old RQ or SB or CoC grognards may have been used to!

Cheers,

Sarah

[threedeesix]

Hi all,

Can anyone see a reason, other than Colour and Good Roleplaying , why you'd ever bother to run up a separate Parry Skill when a single Dodge Skill will serve all your purposes?

Cheers,

Sarah

I think that your Agility skills are panelized by armor and enc. I know Plate gives a -25% penalty for example.

Rod

[threedeesix]

That's now an optional rule, but works just like that. However, -1% per 1 ENC over the limit isn't much of a penalty. Dodge is also a Physical skill, rather than an Agility skill, so isn't affected by bulky armour, which might have been an interesting touch.

Sarah

I don't have the book with me but the playtest said...

"Skill Modifier: This is a modifier to a number of your character’s skills while this armor is worn. The GM may assign this penalty to any appropriate skill, such as Spot if a helmet, or Swim if in full plate."

This would at least imply the GM can assign the penalty if he chooses. I know i will.

Rod

[Kloster]

...

That's now an optional rule, but works just like that. However, -1% per 1 ENC over the limit isn't much of a penalty. Dodge is also a Physical skill, rather than an Agility skill, so isn't affected by bulky armour, which might have been an interesting touch.

...

I don't know for the new BRP, but with RQ III, it was -1% per ENC, not per ENC over the limit. It was easy to have -20% to dodge.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Shaira]

I don't know for the new BRP, but with RQ III, it was -1% per ENC, not per ENC over the limit. It was easy to have -20% to dodge.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

Actually Kloster you're right - it is -1% per ENC, not per ENC over the limit. My bad! That does make it a bit more meaty. :happy:

Sarah

[Nightshade]

I'm reasonably sure from past reading that the new BRP uses Dodge as an opposed roll; it was a common houserule in the RQ3 days, and tends to make a lot of problems with it go away.

[Atgxtg]

I'm reasonably sure from past reading that the new BRP uses Dodge as an opposed roll; it was a common houserule in the RQ3 days, and tends to make a lot of problems with it go away.

Well in RQ3 that you had to match the level of success kept dogoing down a bit. Someone got a special and you were in trouble.

[Nightshade]

Well in RQ3 that you had to match the level of success kept dogoing down a bit. Someone got a special and you were in trouble.

Which is why it was a common houserule to do it in the success reduces success style opposed check instead, because it meant that Dodge wasn't next to useless the minute someone rolled a crit.

[Atgxtg]

Which is why it was a common houserule to do it in the success reduces success style opposed check instead, because it meant that Dodge wasn't next to useless the minute someone rolled a crit.

We never did that. But then we usually had much better parry scores.

[drohem]

Yes, in RQ3 none of my characters used the Dodge skill; the penalties were too steep, success was a toss up, and starting percentage too low for my tastes. They all developed a parry skill of some sort; usually the Shield skill.

[RMS]

Yes, in RQ3 none of my characters used the Dodge skill; the penalties were too steep, success was a toss up, and starting percentage too low for my tastes. They all developed a parry skill of some sort; usually the Shield skill.

The only problem there is that parry, even with a shield, is completely worthless against certain opponents in RQ. Damage bonuses and knockback assure that parrying a giant or dragon is pretty much the same thing as not having a defense at all.

[Gnarsh]

The only problem there is that parry, even with a shield, is completely worthless against certain opponents in RQ. Damage bonuses and knockback assure that parrying a giant or dragon is pretty much the same thing as not having a defense at all.

Well, that's the tradeoff, isn't it? In some situations, dodge was innately superior (high damage foes), while in other's parry was (low to medium damage, with better defense against specials and crits). Most of the time, you're going to be better off parrying, but if you're fighting something that will blow right through that shield parry and whack a location off/down, you might just want to dodge. Sure, if the other guy specials or crits, you're probably in trouble, but if he doesn't, you're better off.

The other advantage to dodge is that once you get a sufficiently high skill with it, it becomes incredibly useful in conjunction with higher AP armor. Assuming you use the "success levels subtract" method (which we do), then if you succeed at dodging, your opponent can *never* critical you. If you've got good AP on your worn armor, this can be huge. It's quite possible to end up being better off dodging against a critical hit from an opponent, then parrying.

How you balance these two will have a lot to do with how your game is set. The balance between worn armor versus ap on shields in your game will be a significant determinant as to which skill is "better", and should be taken into account when deciding what sort of rules to use.

[Atgxtg]

Well, that's the tradeoff, isn't it? In some situations, dodge was innately superior (high damage foes), while in other's parry was (low to medium damage, with better defense against specials and crits). Most of the time, you're going to be better off parrying, but if you're fighting something that will blow right through that shield parry and whack a location off/down, you might just want to dodge. Sure, if the other guy specials or crits, you're probably in trouble, but if he doesn't, you're better off.

Not exactly. A good parry in RQ can stop the high damage attacks. Truthfully, and this has been raised elsewhere. The RQ parry isn't. It is more of a block. A real parry would work against such attack, but is harder to pull off. In RQ terms there is the rule for special and critical parries and that keeps parries ahead. That and the fact that parry chance is usualy much higher than Dodge, especially after ENC.

If you are running that house rule. The subtraction method wasn't part of RQ. You example is a good reason why I'm not thrilled with it in BRP.

Quite true. I think that is also true of a lot of the combat options. Just using hit locations makes a big difference, as does strike ranks.

[Gnarsh]

Not exactly. A good parry in RQ can stop the high damage attacks. Truthfully, and this has been raised elsewhere. The RQ parry isn't. It is more of a block. A real parry would work against such attack, but is harder to pull off. In RQ terms there is the rule for special and critical parries and that keeps parries ahead. That and the fact that parry chance is usualy much higher than Dodge, especially after ENC.

I was responding to folks talking about the relative usefulness of dodge and parry in RQ3. In RQ3, all a successful parry does is give you more armor points between the damage and your skin. A critical parry is great, but anything less only adds points. If you're fighting something really big or even just with a lot of offensive magic up, parry can be less then stellar. It's just not that hard in RQ3 to run into foes that can do average damage in the 30-40 range. Against that a shield parry may not make much difference (again, depending on where you put ap values in your game of course!).

Even if you don't play that level of success on a dodge subtracts, you're still putting yourself in a situation where the other guy has to special to hurt you. If he can blow through your shield parry on a normal hit, this is always going to be a better deal.

[Atgxtg]

I was responding to folks talking about the relative usefulness of dodge and parry in RQ3. In RQ3, all a successful parry does is give you more armor points between the damage and your skin. A critical parry is great, but anything less only adds points. If you're fighting something really big or even just with a lot of offensive magic up, parry can be less then stellar. It's just not that hard in RQ3 to run into foes that can do average damage in the 30-40 range. Against that a shield parry may not make much difference (again, depending on where you put ap values in your game of course!).

30-40 points average. :eek:

I don't know how hard those foes were to find. No one went out looking for them.

I can see your points. But, that "just put more AP in the way" sort of underestimates the effect. With most foes that was enough to soak up the damage.

If going up against the 30-40's (how appropriate now only does it sound like motor oil, but with those damages it is probably something that will become motor oil:p) there was some magic like Great Parry in RQ that helped. You can never have too much armoring enchantment of your shield!

Against a dragon, I once saw somene go with the layered armor approach. Double mail over doublet under plate. He was encumbered, the horse was burderened, but it took a lot off that dragon claw. At least until you drop from exhaustion.

Even if you don't play that level of success on a dodge subtracts, you're still putting yourself in a situation where the other guy has to special to hurt you. If he can blow through your shield parry on a normal hit, this is always going to be a better deal.

True., but few foes can. A shield and moderate armor is good for 16 points or so. A relaible 16 is often better than a maybe dodge. Especially if you have protection up on you AND your shield.

[drohem]

The only problem there is that parry, even with a shield, is completely worthless against certain opponents in RQ. Damage bonuses and knockback assure that parrying a giant or dragon is pretty much the same thing as not having a defense at all.

A damn fine reason to avoid that kind of confrontation, or have massive DR (although, it won't help with the knockback;)).

Oh, and I should also point out that we didn't use standard damage bonus. Frankly, we felt it was too crazy. We had our own modified damage bonus chart that was significantly less in potential damage.

[Rurik]

Originally posted by Rurik

As flattered as I am, that quote two posts upthread is not mine.

[Gnarsh]

Yeah. It really does depend on the "flavor" of your game. How much armoring enchantment do you allow? Do you have stacking limits on spells? How strictly do you follow the encumberance rules?

30-40 points isn't really that high, even using "standard" spell rules. Let's assume you're playing in a game (like mine) where spells are capped at 4 points for rune and 8 points for spirit (ok. we use a scaling cap, but whatever). So a priest of humakt is facing you with a broadsword with truesword and bladesharp 8 going. That's hardly even out of the range that a random beginning level priest might have. Let's also say he's got sufficient points of the strength spell to get a 2d6 strength bonus (typically about a strength 4). Again. Nothing is out of the ordinary, nor even requires any houserules (aside from those limiting the possibilities).

Average damage on a regular hit becomes (5.5*2=11)+7+8=26. Against someone with say a 12 point shield (pretty typical) and 6 points of armor (ring+leather, arguably the best ap for the enc in RQ3), he's going to take 8 points of damage to a location every single swing (which will likely take that location down barring significant strengthening enchantment). A special gets "ugly" in this situation, since it bumps the damage up an additional 11 points (now an average of 37) if he chooses to impale, or 5 points if he chooses to just take max damage.

Max damage in that situation is 18+12+8=38 damage on a regular hit, and 36+12+8=56 on an impale. That's pretty brutal.

Ok. But let's pretend that you're also a priest, and you've got 4 points of shield and 8 points of protection. That's an additional 16 points of armor. Note, that this armor "works" whether you parry or not. So your worn armor has jumped to 22. Suddenly, the 12 points of parry from the shield isn't as significant as the worn armor you get. Avoiding a critical matters *more* (since it's worth 22 points) then the parry. Of course, you could pretty safely parry as well, since in this case, your parry gives you 34 points of protection and the other guy has to get a lucky hit (an impale or better) to have much chance of doing any damage to you.

That's an edge case honestly. The two skills are almost a wash. But if we transform that opponent into a Zorak Zoran priest using crush4, wielding a troll maul, and capable of getting a 3d6 damage bonus, suddenly are numbers might not look so great. Dodging starts to look pretty good when the opponents average damage hits 18+10+13.5+8=41.5 damage (yes, that's average for a 3d6 bonus, with a troll maul with truemace, crush4, and bludgeon8).

I'll also point out that the above mentioned troll would only need some spirit spells (which he can pick automatically once he's a priest and spends one power for spellteaching), and 5 points of rune magic (and since he needs 10 to qualify for priest, that shouldn't be a problem, right?). So basically, any random zorak zoran priest can do this without any special items or abilities.

IMO, it's quite common to face foes that can do that kind of damage. And of course, one of the disadvantages that PCs have is that while they're expected to fight and defeat many foes over the course of an adventure, each foe they fight is *only* fighting the PCs. Thus, he's likely to run out of shield before the foes he fights over the course of an adventure run out of stuff like truesword, crush, or slash.

Having a dodge is pretty darn nice in those situations. Yes. It's harder to get the skill up. It starts at a lower base and suffers penalties based on enc. But more experienced characters in my campaign almost always take some time to learn some dodge just so that they have the chance to use it if/when they need it.

[RMS]

A damn fine reason to avoid that kind of confrontation, or have massive DR (although, it won't help with the knockback;)).

We recently had a battle between a Humakti and Yanfil Tarnils rune lords with all their magic up. One interesting artifact of the combat is that when either one hit, the other would go flying through the air for some distance. Each had enough Shield and Protection that they suffered no damage from hit walls, bystanders, etc.

Oh, and I should also point out that we didn't use standard damage bonus. Frankly, we felt it was too crazy. We had our own modified damage bonus chart that was significantly less in potential damage.

I'd be curious to see it. I always wanted to see a more graduated scale, but I actually like that creatures such as dragons, giants, and even trolls get large damage bonuses. That fits what such creatures should do IMO.

[RMS]

30-40 points isn't really that high, even using "standard" spell rules.

I haven't tradtionally used any kind of stacking limits. We have a Humakti floating around in our game with a Bladesharp 12, enough Strength (2 or 3) to get a 2d6 bonus, and Truesword. Toss all that up on a 2-handed sword and get 4d8+2d6+12 damage, not to mention +60% to skill (to a character with 200%+ before even adding Humakti gifts in). That's an average of 37 points of damage and a maximum of 56. This character regularly goes through shields, full plate, etc. with ease, and unlike a large creature the other side doesn't necessarily realize in advance to dodge rather than parry.

I should note that I use houserules (options from RQII) so that slashing weapons do full damage on a special (though armor works unless a critical is rolled), so the above 56 is a fairly common result for such a skilled character.

If that's not gross enough, it's an iron sword so trolls and elves take double damage from anything getting through, and due to various Humakti gifts several other species suffer a similar fate.

[drohem]

I'd be curious to see it.

DAMAGE BONUS CHART

STR + SIZ Damage Bonus

01-04 -1d4

05-08 -1d3

09-12 -1d2

13-16 -1

17-20 +0

21-24 +1

25-28 +1d2

29-32 +1d3

33-36 +1d4

37-40 +1d5

41-44 +1d6

45-48 +1d7

49-52 +1d8

53-56 +1d9

57-60 +1d10

etc… etc…

If you had a +1d9 db, then you'd roll a d10 and reroll any '10' result until you got in the 1-9 range.

Looking at the chart now, I probably would revise it slightly so you would roll one die plus modifier or two dice plus modifier. Basically, it follows the RQ2 -point progression.

[Atgxtg]

I was toying with something similar, but in increments of 2. So +1D2/+1D4/+1D6/+1D8/+1D10/+1D10+1D2 (or 2D6), etc).