BRP & Harn

[Scout]

Has anyone used BRUGE to run Harn? Specifically, does anyone know how BRUGE would accommodate the six magical Convocations of Harn? The Convocations are groups split into areas such as: 

Convocations

Edited March 6 by Scout

[Atgxtg]

I doubt it. Considering how similar HARNMASTER is mechanically to BRP I suspect most BRPers would be fine with running HARNMASTER. It's not like adapting something from d20, GURPS or HERO system. 

You would need someone who had something in BRP that they really liked that HARNMASTER lacked, that they didn't want to give up on and couldn't just port over.  That or theyI would have to really like HARN as a setting, really dislike the HARNMASTER game system, but still love (the functionally similar to HARNMASTER) BRP system. 

[Mugen]

Hârn was published a few years before HârnMaster, and I'm sure quite a good number of players used RuneQuest, StormBringer or Magic World (WoW version) in Hârn before that.

Concerning your "Convocations", I know nothing of Hârn magic, but the table reminds me of Mythras Sorcery. In this game, each sorcerer belongs to a tradition, which teaches a specific Invoke skill, and a listt of spells that can be learned and cast with that Invoke skill. In BRUGE, you could use the Magic rules as a basis, but reduce the number of skills to 6, one per convocation.

[Atgxtg]

10 hours ago, Mugen said:

Hârn was published a few years before HârnMaster, and I'm sure quite a good number of players used RuneQuest, StormBringer or Magic World (WoW version) in Hârn before that.

But if they did they would have used the magic system that came with those RPGs.

10 hours ago, Mugen said:

Concerning your "Convocations", I know nothing of Hârn magic, but the table reminds me of Mythras Sorcery. In this game, each sorcerer belongs to a tradition, which teaches a specific Invoke skill, and a listt of spells that can be learned and cast with that Invoke skill. In BRUGE, you could use the Magic rules as a basis, but reduce the number of skills to 6, one per convocation.

It's the magic system that is part of/a supplement to Harnmaster. Basically if someone is using it they have/are using part of  Harnmaster. It would be like if someone who had the BRP Magic Book, wanted to covert it to Harnmaster but didn't have BRP. Possible but unlikely, hence my replay above. 

The Convocations divide  Harn's magic (Shek-Pvar) into six sub orders (Convocations) of air, fire, metal, earth, water and Spirit. Most spells fall into one of these categories, although there are a handful of "neutral" spells. It's somewhat similar to the forms used in Ars Magica, or some of the Runic associations in RQ. There are even restrictions as to what convocations one can learn based on what they already know, and what terms they are on with the other orders, somewhat similar to RQ cult affiliations. Casting is done by rolling against the convocation skill with a -5% modifier for the level of the spell being cast, plus additional modifiers for other factors. 

To adapt that to some form of BRP one would either have to adapt the Harmanster spells over to BRP, or assign BRP spells to the appropriate convocation (i.e. Fireblade would be a Fire spell, Bladesharp a metal spell, and so on). IF I were to attempt it I think I';d adapt the Harnmaster spells over, and treat each convocation as a magic skill to be rolled against, somewhat similar to in Harnmaster. somewhat similar to RQ3 Sorcery. I'd treat BRP special success as Harn CS results, and use Harn range and casting times (maybe convert seconds to Strike Ranks or DEX ranks). But I'd also want to look at Harnmaster Religion and Psionics before doing so, and wouldn't want to mix Harn Magic with any of the other BRP magic systems since Harn magic doesn't rely on Magic Points to power spells. 

 

 

[Mugen]

@Atgxtgthank you. It turns out my guess, based on a simple table, was not that bad. 🙂

Mythras Sorcery uses Magic Points, but it could be possible to get rid of it, as the costs are very low and has no impact on the spell's power. Casting could be done by opposing the caster's skill with the spell's total levels, multiplied by 5.

[Atgxtg]

9 hours ago, Mugen said:

@Atgxtgthank you. It turns out my guess, based on a simple table, was not that bad. 🙂

No, not too bad at all although there is a bit more to it that what I posted. What spells the caster knows for instance.

THe thing with adapting/converting is what you are willing to lose in the translation.

9 hours ago, Mugen said:

Mythras Sorcery uses Magic Points, but it could be possible to get rid of it, as the costs are very low and has no impact on the spell's power. Casting could be done by opposing the caster's skill with the spell's total levels, multiplied by 5.

 

Yeah, but I think it would be simpler just to rate each Convocation as a skill and subtract 5% per level rather than use an opposed roll. 

One tricky bit would be in adapting the damage done by spells. In HARNMASTER weapons do a fixed amount based on weapon, attack type (blunt, edges, or puncture), weapon weight, with dice added based on the success level results of the attack vs. parry roll. This total gets compared against the armor worn and location struck to find the result. For BRP we'd probably need to compare the spells basic damage (usually 1/10th the caster's skill) to the weapons table to find an equivlant in BRP. FOr example if a caster does a base of 6 damage with a spell in Harnmaster, that's about the same as a broadsword so it would do around 1D8+1 in BRP. THat seems to be about the same as the average damaged rounded off.

 

Oh, also in Harnmaster there is a cap on skills of around 100%+ average of relevant Characteristics.  An open ended skill system would make magic potentially far more powerful.

 

 

[DreadDomain]

13 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

IF I were to attempt it I think I';d adapt the Harnmaster spells over, and treat each convocation as a magic skill to be rolled against, somewhat similar to in Harnmaster. somewhat similar to RQ3 Sorcery. I'd treat BRP special success as Harn CS results, and use Harn range and casting times (maybe convert seconds to Strike Ranks or DEX ranks). But I'd also want to look at Harnmaster Religion and Psionics before doing so, and wouldn't want to mix Harn Magic with any of the other BRP magic systems since Harn magic doesn't rely on Magic Points to power spells. 

Agreed on all accounts plus I would cast a suspicious glance over what the spell effects are, and adapt as required.

[Atgxtg]

22 minutes ago, DreadDomain said:

Agreed on all accounts plus I would cast a suspicious glance over what the spell effects are, and adapt as required.

That's the judgement call here.

Considering Chaosium's track history with gameworld settings, I think we'd want to stay true to Harn and even let in stuff that might not fit well in BRP game mechanics.  So I'd want to think through what the effects of changes would be before I did anything. But, as I pointed out before, I'd probably rather just run Harnmaster. It's pretty close to BRP anyway, and it would avoid a lot of work converting stuff, and the problems associated with doing so. But that's me. I'm not the OP and I probably don't want exactly the same things they do from this.

For the OP I think it would come down to what exactly they want to keep from Harnmaster Magic, and what they wanted from BRP.  

 

 

[DreadDomain]

11 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

But, as I pointed out before, I'd probably rather just run Harnmaster. It's pretty close to BRP anyway, and it would avoid a lot of work converting stuff, and the problems associated with doing so. But that's me. I'm not the OP and I probably don't want exactly the same things they do from this.

Again, agreed. The question in the OP is how to adapt Harn convocations to BRP and I thought my answer (I would not and would just use HarnMaster), was not really helpful.

Why would I use HarnMaster? Simply put, it's a good system and it is so close to BRP that it must be a cousin at worse...

 

[svensson]

I made an RQ3 attempt at Harn that didn't work out all that well.

Part of it is the Shek-Pvar convocation system and parsing which spells go where. Part of it was the needless complications of RQ3 Sorcery, something I never did really get the hang of.

I tend to disagree about HarnMaster being a 'cousin' of BRP.... While there are some similarities [no character classes, etc.], the rules of the game are unnecessarily complicated and very ticky tack. NOTHING is 'simple' in HM, and I've had difficulty really learning the system.

[Scout]

30 minutes ago, svensson said:

I made an RQ3 attempt at Harn that didn't work out all that well.

Part of it is the Shek-Pvar convocation system and parsing which spells go where. Part of it was the needless complications of RQ3 Sorcery, something I never did really get the hang of.

I tend to disagree about HarnMaster being a 'cousin' of BRP.... While there are some similarities [no character classes, etc.], the rules of the game are unnecessarily complicated and very ticky tack. NOTHING is 'simple' in HM, and I've had difficulty really learning the system.

Have to agree. Part of me loves the HM crunch, and at one point I was quite comfortable practising combat (before GMing the game for our group), but at that point, I realised the rules were just too crunchy for my tastes and so moved on. 

Edited March 8 by Scout

[Atgxtg]

4 hours ago, svensson said:

I made an RQ3 attempt at Harn that didn't work out all that well.

Part of it is the Shek-Pvar convocation system and parsing which spells go where. Part of it was the needless complications of RQ3 Sorcery, something I never did really get the hang of.

What do you mean by "needless complications"? It sounds to me like you didn't like or understand RQ3 Sorcery very much, but without context I can't follow your point.

4 hours ago, svensson said:

I tend to disagree about HarnMaster being a 'cousin' of BRP.... While there are some similarities [no character classes, etc.], the rules of the game are unnecessarily complicated and very ticky tack. NOTHING is 'simple' in HM, and I've had difficulty really learning the system.

That's funny. In a lot of ways I find Harnmaster simpler than BRP! Success levels are a snap, combat is quick easy and detailed, and the game uses the same mechanics for magic as it does for everything else. Yeah, armor can be a bit tedious, especially with the large number of hit locations, coverage, and overlapping armor, but you get some nice options for it. 

It's pretty easy to learn too. Roll under skill for a success, and any roll than ends in 0 or 5 is a critical success or critical failure. To anyone familiar with RQ, HARNMASTER should be easy to pick up.  Skills are based on characteristics, with higher values when learned/"opened" and is somewhat reminiscent of original Magic World or ElfQuest.

If Harnmaster isn't a cousin to BRP then I'm not sure if we could call Call of Cthulhu 7 or Pendragon cousins to BRP either. 

 

[Atgxtg]

3 hours ago, Scout said:

Have to agree. Part of me loves the HM crunch, and at one point I was quite comfortable practising combat (before GMing the game for our group), but at that point, I realised the rules were just too crunchy for my tastes and so moved on. 

Well then maybe an adaptation of the Shek-Pvar rules might be to crunchy too? Maybe you'd be happier replacing them with BRP magic and just divide the spells up by type into schools/convocations? It won't be quite the same as in Harnmaster, but that's the point, right?  I mean no matter how faithful one is it will never be exactly the same, and even if it were exactly the same, then it would be too crunchy for your tastes. So just swap it out for a pre-existing BRP magic system and group the spells accordingly to make it feel like Shek-Pvar.  Think of it as Shek-Pvar Lite. That would be a lot less work and you'd probably be happier with the result. 

Plus you know what level of crunch is good for you, while I can only guess. I might over-simply or under-simplify, while you know exactly where you draw the line. For instance would you prefer "Shek-Pvar Lite" to be based on BRP Magic, BRP Sorcery, or something else? 

 

That way I'd convert it I've already mentioned. I'd make each convocation a magical skill and use the skill score in place of CML and pretty much port over range and skill bonus directly from Harnmaster. Use CML/10 as the average spell damage and convert that to a die. Maybe use (CML/10)-1 points to buy a damage die ala old Superworld. I'd port over the fidly bits for geustures and such too. But that's what I'd want. What you want could be very different.

 

 

 

 

[Questbird]

On 3/8/2024 at 11:44 PM, Scout said:

Have to agree. Part of me loves the HM crunch, and at one point I was quite comfortable practising combat (before GMing the game for our group), but at that point, I realised the rules were just too crunchy for my tastes and so moved on. 

 

You might want to try something like Mythras, with its moderate crunch level, hit locations etc. The Mythic Britain supplements could help with the atmosphere of Hârn.

I reckon Aquelarre with its gritty medieval vibe would work very well with Hârn (also has hit locations; does it in a superior way to RQ/Mythras in my opinion)

Cthulhu Dark Ages might work also.

For non-BRP systems, I've refereed Maelstrom (these days Maelstrom Domesday) and Dragon Warriors in Hârn in the past. Each of those has a 'British' vibe which suits Hârn quite well.

As for the magic system, well that's where you need to do some work. Magic systems are very specific to a setting and make a big difference to a fantasy campaign. Hârn is supposedly a 'low magic' setting, or one where magic is at least relatively uncommon. I usually find the default BRP system to be inadequate. However using your table as a guide, the BRP way would be to have those 6 convocations as separate skills, with whatever strictures that allow you to acquire one or more of them.

[Eddy]

I GMed Harn back in the 80s using classic Runequest, and it was always a bit of a problem with the magic system then. I just used battle magic and ignored Rune magic. Nowadays, If it was me I would use the BRP based  Renaissance rules for Alchemy which uses the elements and is very close to the Shek Pvar magic system. There is a free version available somewhere. For anyone who knows Harn, it's the religions that are the real problem!!

[Questbird]

On 3/23/2024 at 5:02 AM, Eddy said:

I GMed Harn back in the 80s using classic Runequest, and it was always a bit of a problem with the magic system then. I just used battle magic and ignored Rune magic. Nowadays, If it was me I would use the BRP based  Renaissance rules for Alchemy which uses the elements and is very close to the Shek Pvar magic system. There is a free version available somewhere. For anyone who knows Harn, it's the religions that are the real problem!!

 

I'm curious: what do you think is the problem with the religions? I do know Harn reasonably well.

[Eddy]

Well I am a bit rusty on the Harn religions. But it always seemed that the issue was assigning any "magic /divine powers" to each god. You would have to look at each god and then assign whatever spells/powers would seem appropriate and you only had so many. I spent hours back in the 80s looking at each spell and trying to assign it to whatever god seemed appropriate. For example what spells/powers would Halea, Sarajin or maybe Agrik etc have? I even have some typed up sheets detailing this agony!! Nowadays maybe Runequest 6 is better suited to the divine magic, who knows... but the Renaissance (Alchemy chapter) RPG would be my default for Harn Shek P'var magic without a doubt. Plus the Witchcraft magic chapter is sublime. Easily the best medieval magic system in the BRP world. What can beat a spell called "For to Fling Back a Spell in the Face of a Caster". Anyway It's free check it out!