Broyan of Whitewall & Sword and Helm of Vingkot

[Aelex]

Hi,

thinking about the tragic end that met King Broyan of Whitewall, is there any sourcematerial about how exactly he was killed?

According to Well of Daliath, he was killed in 1625 near the Troll Woods by Lunar sorcery, shortly before the Dragonrise, and Leika Black Spear was there with him when it happened.

I wonder what where the circumstances? What exactly was the tool? What was he doing there?

And what happened to the Sword and Helm of Vingkot after King Broyan was killed?

Thanks in advance!

 

[jajagappa]

6 hours ago, Aelex said:

thinking about the tragic end that met King Broyan of Whitewall, is there any sourcematerial about how exactly he was killed?

There's a few sources, and there are some variances as to exactly what killed him, but generally it is either a Darkness or Lunar demon which fell upon and killed him and destroyed a good part of his army. 

The Guide p.732 notes: "With his army, King Broyan prepared to march on the New Lunar Temple." (I.e. Broyan planned to destroy the temple before it was completed, then likely intended to capture Boldhome and liberate Sartar.)

King of Sartar p.125: "In Kethaela, King Broyan marched north with a small volunteer army. Among the Kitori, a little bright light was snuffed out, and a demon which had many sharp mouths was let out of its skin. It sought vengeance, and fell upon the army of King Broyan while they slept. The king could not keep it away, because he had betrayed the City of Wonders, and he was killed there, with his army."

Glorantha Sourcebook p.206 adds: "Broyan was acclaimed King of Kethaela in 1624, but was killed by Lunar magic in 1625 before he could liberate Dragon Pass."

6 hours ago, Aelex said:

And what happened to the Sword and Helm of Vingkot after King Broyan was killed?

Most likely returned to Vingkot in the Gods World (possibly after being consumed by the demon). As these could only be worn/wielded by an heir of Vingkot, which Broyan had proved he was, no one else would be able to use their powers if they were physical artifacts. Quite possibly they are not physical artifacts, though, but Rune powers that could manifest upon/within a specially and ritually prepared sword and helm. 

[Joerg]

Quite a lot of such artifacts could be what we know as "contact relics" from medieval Christian practices. If you look a the story of the Red Sword of Tolat in the Guide, that reads like many of the items in the Godtime myth already are such copies or descendants of the original.

[Ynneadwraith]

On 3/10/2024 at 3:10 AM, jajagappa said:

Among the Kitori, a little bright light was snuffed out, and a demon which had many sharp mouths was let out of its skin.

Now isn't that a stunningly tragic vision. Evidence of Kitori human sacrifice? Or did Broyan seal his own doom in the death of an unassuming child during his march north? Armies are not known to be kind to the people of the lands they march through...

Love that it could be either, or something else entirely.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Ynneadwraith said:

Evidence of Kitori human sacrifice? Or did Broyan seal his own doom in the death of an unassuming child during his march north? Armies are not known to be kind to the people of the lands they march through...

Broyan in being named King of Kethaela inherited certain duties and obligations, including protecting the City of Wonders. However, the price of Harrek's aid against the Lunars culminating in the Battle of Pennel Ford was allowing Harrek and the Wolf Pirates to loot the City of Wonders. I.e. Broyan was forced to break a Vow, and that leads to his doom. Whether it was Tatius who directed the curse against Harrek, or the Shadowlord of the Shadow Plateau/Kitori, may not matter since the result is Broyan's death. 

I do not think there is any Kitori human sacrifice involved, nor would his army have marched through Kitori lands - at that point Broyan's goal was retaking the Heortland cities, most recently Whitewall and then using Whitewall as staging for a campaign into Dragon Pass.  Now a trail does lead from the Shadow Plateau to the Troll Woods just south of Whitewall, and is actively used by the Argan Argar merchants. It is feasible that a troll caravan might have been looted, and then triggered action involving Broyan's Vows as King of Kethaela. 

Personally, given the description of the demon, and its ability to slay Broyan, a hero, and a part of his army, that it might have been the Black Eater that was invoked.

[Aelex]

Thanks a lot so far!

So when interpreting the given facts, he was on his way up north with his army (perhaps with the intend to attack the new lunar temple). While they made camp and slept, something killed him and parts of his army. And foul lunar sorcery is at play. Since he managed to survive the crimson bat, either his powers failed him or he was just not warned in time.

Really like that vid of the black eater, looking gorgeous! Where can i find more info about that creature? Is it a demon per definition or ist it rather an "unspecified entity"?

Thinking about plothooks here for starter heroes that are not from the same clan, something like letting the players escape with their bare life from the carnage and plenty of nightmares (and guilt if it was on their watch). 

And a while after this feel of total defeat, the rumors begin to spread about the dragon rise and things start rolling, bringing the heroes back into the game. The new timeline realy does give a lot of interesting options.

 

 

 

 

 

[jajagappa]

21 minutes ago, Aelex said:

So when interpreting the given facts, he was on his way up north with his army (perhaps with the intend to attack the new lunar temple). While they made camp and slept, something killed him and parts of his army. And foul lunar sorcery is at play. Since he managed to survive the crimson bat, either his powers failed him or he was just not warned in time.

Yes. Yes. Quite likely. Powers failed him because he broke a Vow.

22 minutes ago, Aelex said:

Really like that vid of the black eater, looking gorgeous! Where can i find more info about that creature? Is it a demon per definition or ist it rather an "unspecified entity"?

Short bit in the Prosopaedia, p.16. Technically a deity (a troll god of destruction), but undoubtedly there would be lesser demons of similar nature that serve the Black Eater that are easier to summon. The Dehori demon Babaka Fegh (Bestiary p.183) is a good example of similar demonic entity.

27 minutes ago, Aelex said:

Thinking about plothooks here for starter heroes that are not from the same clan, something like letting the players escape with their bare life from the carnage and plenty of nightmares (and guilt if it was on their watch). 

Yes, seems reasonable. And if it was the Black Eater summoned, then quite likely it was accompanied by lesser demonic minions. Even a large Darkness elemental can be dangerous for typical PC's. Add a Bite attack to it, some intelligence, and ability to cast some magic and you have something for PC's to run from.

29 minutes ago, Aelex said:

And a while after this feel of total defeat, the rumors begin to spread about the dragon rise and things start rolling, bringing the heroes back into the game. The new timeline realy does give a lot of interesting options.

Yes, it's not that long between. Broyan dies in Fireseason, and what's left of the army retreats into Newtown below Whitewall. Then the Dragonrise occurs on Clayday, Harmonyweek, Earthseason, so at most you're looking at one season until things get shaken up in Sartar.

[Aelex]

On 3/12/2024 at 1:26 AM, jajagappa said:

And if it was the Black Eater summoned, then quite likely it was accompanied by lesser demonic minions. Even a large Darkness elemental can be dangerous for typical PC's. Add a Bite attack to it, some intelligence, and ability to cast some magic and you have something for PC's to run from.

Thanks, that should suit the situation perfectly well!  So the "alpha demon" is masscaring the king and his guard and the PC`s have to fight some minion-entity to escape (or try to get to the king), while everything around them is murder and mayhem. That should be enough to get an idea about the scale of oposition and contemplate a season about wtf happened. Then getting back at the Lunars with a vengeance after Earthseason will give them kind of new purpose.  Maybe in between there will be time for trying to peek into whats left of Whitewall, maybe escorting the Stormvoice to Orlanth temple or something like that. Is there a way the PC`s might know it was the Lunars who killed the Highking or is it not clarified ingame? 

Edited March 13 by Aelex

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Aelex said:

Maybe in between there will be time for trying to peek into whats left of Whitewall, maybe escorting the Stormvoice to Orlanth temple or something like that. Is there a way the PC`s might know it was the Lunars who killed the Highking or is it not clarified ingame? 

Since there was no obvious Lunar presence, it's all rumor and innuendo. The Crimson Bat, the Crater Makers, Jar-eel - all clear signs of Lunars leading it. Hell demons, well that could be anyone with the power to summon such and a desire to get back at Broyan. Plus it was nighttime, so difficult to tell anyone.

But rumors are largely going to place the blame on: the Lunars (they previously summoned Cwim to defeat Argrath's attempted invasion of Dragon Pass, so clearly capable of this attack too); the trolls of the Shadow Plateau (the Kitori are a small tribe, but there are a lot of trolls in the Shadowlands and they've got their own hero, Obash Broosmasher, and a desire to reclaim the rule over all the Holy Country); Gagix the Scorpion Queen (she's a chaos hero, and getting rid of Broyan is a good start to her campaign to overrun all of Heortland). Of course, Broyan led a rather ragtag army of disparate groups including old companions, Wolf Pirates, and others - I'm sure some will blame others, if nothing else for failure to guard the perimeters, alert Broyan, etc., and those mistrusting opinions will be present over the subsequent seasons.

[Aelex]

This is great, from the perpetrators perspective, its like the perfect crime. Not only is the target killed together with lots of his fighters. Also the survivors are likely undecided who to blame and are even blaming each other plus arguing about command of the troops. At some point i figure there could have been internal conflicts and Kallyr is off to prepare for her visit at the new moon temple and Leika is probably off with her warband to Sartar to ready her tribe after the Dragonrise.

If the scattered troops in front of Whitewall ruins are a match for the trolls or the scorpionmen gonna be interesting. i imagine some skirmishes could be likely since Argrath is probably more focussed on the northwest in general. Lots of oportunities for adventure. Curious about the developments in the area between 1625 and 1630, the constellations look promising.

Too bad the High King, the sword and the helm are lost for now. But then again, the loss of Broyan is followed by the loss of most of Lunar army in Sartar. 

Looking forward to haunt the PC`s, being all bored and silly on guard duty, with some propper Helldemons and Darkness elementals. Or maybe they are not even there, being on patrol when they return to the camp after hearing screams and then have to face the minions of the Black Eater while the massacre unfolds.

[Shiningbrow]

5 hours ago, Aelex said:

Looking forward to haunt the PC`s, being all bored and silly on guard duty, with some propper Helldemons and Darkness elementals. Or maybe they are not even there, being on patrol when they return to the camp after hearing screams and then have to face the minions of the Black Eater while the massacre unfolds.

Maybe they're haunted because they ran in terror? (although, with a Fear, maybe there wasn't much choice - but they don't need to know that).

[Manunancy]

The whole affair may even have been an accidental joint effort (though when mythical heavyweights are involved, coincidences tends to happen more than usual), with lunar infiltrators/assassins disabling some gurads and defenses on their way to slice Broyan's throat (or just poison the supplies or other shenanigans) with some disgruntled element of the army's help and unwittingly opening the way for the darkness critters. which makes all the options (lunars, darkness and inside job) true, even if none is the whole picture... This also gives a neat explanation of why there's so much confusion about what happened.

Edited March 18 by Manunancy

[Shiningbrow]

Maybe it was a combination? Who says one lot didn't ally with another (or 3 or 5) to bring this about??

[Shiningbrow]

Query - sort of back on specific aspect of topic...

If one happens to awaken a certain demi-goddess from a certain published scenario, and marries that demi-goddess (even if it's only a year marriage), would that not make them an Heir of Vingkot? Certainly their child would be... no??

[metcalph]

14 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

If one happens to awaken a certain demi-goddess from a certain published scenario, and marries that demi-goddess (even if it's only a year marriage), would that not make them an Heir of Vingkot? Certainly their child would be... no??

The demigoddess was a wife of Vingkot and a daughter of Tada.  This is not normally thought to make one an heir although William the Conqueror did try a similar argument.

 

[EricW]

If Broyan was marching on the New Lunar Temple, the march would have occurred on more than the mundane plane. Broyan would have already been spending his evenings grappling with Lunar defences on the heroplane, and heroquesting for magical abilities to weaken Lunar defences. The Lunars on their part would be busy deploying all sorts of exotic magic and conducting dangerous heroquests to spiritually pacify the vast area of effect of the new temple, and mine the vast magical potential under the temple to fuel their sorcery. It's no mystery Broyan encountered something horrible. Broyan might even have been torn apart by his own guilt made manifest - seems like a very Lunar thing to do. 

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

The demigoddess was a wife of Vingkot and a daughter of Tada.  This is not normally thought to make one an heir although William the Conqueror did try a similar argument.

 

I"m not sure who you're thinking of... I"m referring to Orgovale Summer - the daughter of Vingkot and Tada (and who married Ulanin, and founded the Orgorvaltes tribe). Since Ulanin was considered a king (and, I presume an heir, although obviously, given there were at least 8 others in line before him, it's hard to see if that would have followed) and Hero (does that have a capital?), I'd think it works... certainly, as I suggest, any of their kids would be somewhere in the line.

 

(Is there a full listing of the genealogy for Vingkotlings and heirs??) Not merely a King's List.

Edited March 14 by Shiningbrow

[Ynneadwraith]

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Query - sort of back on specific aspect of topic...

If one happens to awaken a certain demi-goddess from a certain published scenario, and marries that demi-goddess (even if it's only a year marriage), would that not make them an Heir of Vingkot? Certainly their child would be... no??

My take is, that like a lot of real world instances of unclear succession, it become a fictional tautology.

If someone successfully heroquests to receive the Sword and Helm of Vingkot, then clearly they must have been an heir all along. Regardless of whether it's actually true or not. Through heroquesting they become one (or just through convincing everyone else that they must have been one anyway).

[Shiningbrow]

6 minutes ago, Ynneadwraith said:

My take is, that like a lot of real world instances of unclear succession, it become a fictional tautology.

If someone successfully heroquests to receive the Sword and Helm of Vingkot, then clearly they must have been an heir all along. Regardless of whether it's actually true or not. Through heroquesting they become one (or just through convincing everyone else that they must have been one anyway).

Well, true.

But the kids.... surely would have Leika really considering her political position (obviously, after Kallyr has gone). And Argrath's position should also come more into question (granted, we're not looking simply at Sartar's line now). But... the direct Great-Grandchild of Orlanth and Ernalda themselves... not a small thing to be taking into account!

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, EricW said:

If Broyan was marching on the New Lunar Temple, the march would have occurred on more than the mundane plane.

As I recall he was camped outside of Twotop just a bit north of Whitewall, so hadn't really begun the march, but was likely gathering the tribes north of Whitewall, and likely invoking various Orlanthi rituals in preparation. Perhaps he invoked some ritual such as the Sandals of Darkness that might allow his army to go undetected by the Lunars, and unknowingly triggered an attack by Darkness because of his oathbreaking? 

[French Desperate WindChild]

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

If one happens to awaken a certain demi-goddess from a certain published scenario, and marries that demi-goddess (even if it's only a year marriage), would that not make them an Heir of Vingkot? Certainly their child would be... no??

I would say it may be a good argument, at least to be "adopted" by his wife's "bloodline" (as any husband/wife who joins his/her partner's clan)

However as GM-wise lankhoring I would tell the pc that to marry her is not enough, the pc must "leave" his family/clan to join his wife's family/clan.

That 'would be accepted by his first clan of course (marry a goddess ?! whaou...) but with only one issue: There are not a lot of people still alive in his new family...

 

a good mythical help for a potential heroquester to do

1 hour ago, Ynneadwraith said:

successfully heroquests to receive the Sword and Helm of Vingkot, then clearly they must have been an heir all along.

however that's not because you are [skilled/powerful/ (put your word) ] enough that you will succeed the quest. There should be impossible if the heroquester is not "seen" in the mythical world as an heir.

 

Obtaining the sword and helm is the proof you are a Vingkot's heir (at least you are now a Vingkot's heir). But if you were not before , hard to obtain it 😛 

I'm just imagining things, not blocking the idea at all: from a gm perspective, that's not an issue, if GM wants the pc to get back the gear, the pc is one heir, even if the pc doesn't know it.)

For example it is said that almost all French  are "genetic heirs" of Charlemagne. Probably the same with German I imagine, and other europeans (of course among those who have a part of their ancestors in France/Europe for a long time)

 

[Aelex]

Thanks a lot, the picture starts to become clearer. So just to summarize some of the possible circumstances in a timeline-like fashion (only as an interpretation ( one possibility):

 

Before his death, Broyan managed to purify at least the Orlanth temple in Whitewall, eventhough the city now is basicaly a haunted ruin, with only the Stormvoice and probably some Stormbulls and Humakti being able to find a safe passage through the chaos-tainted ruins to the temple.

A season or so before the Dragonrise in 1625, Broyan and his troops made camp outside Twotop, close to Auroch Hills and the Troll Woods.

It is not unlikely that he was preparing to march on the new Lunar Temple.

Somehow some deadly entities (perhaps a Black Eater, Darkness elementals and / or Hell demons and maybe more) surprisingly manifest in the camp one night, slay Broyan and massacre lots of his troops in their sleep, not unlikely summoned by foul Lunar sorcery (maybe even in combination with intruders, assassins or someone preparing/helping the summoning, maybe even a traitor and/ or other allies?).

Broyans powers likely failed him because of a broken vow.

He is layed to rest in the cairns of his kin, leaving no heirs. Vingkots Sword & Helm are likely lost for now.

The survivors dont really know what exactly hit them, probably starting to blame each other and split up due to internal conflicts and rivalries. Rumors about the incident spread.

Part of the survivors settle in Newtown, in front of Whitewall ruins, forming the new Olontongi tribe, another group with Leika Blackspear is probably off to Sartar (Colymar lands?). (Kallyr Starbrow is off about to start her rites provoking the Dragonrise.)

Heortland is now facing a power vacuum, endangered and destabilized through internal conflicts, the Shadowplateau trolls and the Scorpion Queen.

Since the real responsibilities for the murder of the High King are not really known so far, revenge for him isnt too likely soon (eventhough there is a chance, some of the involved powers fall victim to the Dragonrise).

Lots of work for Heroes

 

 

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Obtaining the sword and helm is the proof you are a Vingkot's heir (at least you are now a Vingkot's heir). But if you were not before , hard to obtain it

Bear in mind that Vingkot was the first in memory since the days of Rastagar's Betrayal during the Storm Age to bear the Sword and Helm (Rastagar being a direct descendant and last of the Kodigvari). If the Volsaxi clans could have readily gained them, you'd have record of it. (Maybe there's some claim to someone having them during the Adjustment Wars at the end of the 2nd Age, but if so I don't recall the reference.)

[Joerg]

7 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

(Is there a full listing of the genealogy for Vingkotlings and heirs??) Not merely a King's List.

There are a few partial listings available for the Kodigvari (kings), the Koroltes royal lineage to King Heort and his sons, and for some later Berennethtelli ancestors of Harmast. Other than that, we know a daughter each of Kodig (and his Nochet queen) and Korol as founding queens of the two successor tribes to the Lastralgortelli - the Liornvuli and Forosilvuli, and of a 9th generation female descendant of Jorganos as founding queen of the Garanvuli of Whitewall (who would be the most likely Vingkotling era ancestors of any Hendriki tribesfolk).

Edited March 14 by Joerg

[French Desperate WindChild]

4 hours ago, Aelex said:

Somehow some deadly entities (perhaps a Black Eater, Darkness elementals and / or Hell demons and maybe more) surprisingly manifest in the camp one night, slay Broyan and massacre lots of his troops in their sleep, not unlikely summoned by foul Lunar sorcery (maybe even in combination with intruders, assassins or someone preparing/helping the summoning, maybe even a traitor and/ or other allies?).

Broyans powers likely failed him because of a broken vow.

personaly I would not believe (but who I am ?...) that lunars are the source of this massacre : if they were, I think they would claim it as a great victory of the greatest empire. Somewhere, if they did it, they did killed Orlanth avatar, some good omen for the next step: killing Orlanth god. As they kept silent, they probably (in this option) did not want to claim something that people may prove they lied. They did not need this kind of lie to be known as very powerful, and they did not need to be exposed as liars, that would "reduce" the fear of their ennemies.

Another option is directly based on the broken vow. Maybe, Broyan summoned the devil to be strongest or to reduce dangers and, as he was already cursed, a) the devil did not come when it was expected, b) the devil was too powerful to be constrained

So maybe the unwilling instigator of Broyan's fall is Broyan himself.