Initiation, adulthood and skills

[Super Thunder Bros.]

Hi tribe! So in two weeks I’m kicking off my first RQ:G game. It’ll be a clan based game using the initiations and episodes from six seasons in sartar and some of chaosiums adventures, but transplanted to Lunar Tarsh.

Players will start as young Lay members of their cults as well as lay members of Ernalda as she is a central figure in this clan. First sessions will be adulthood initiations, cult initiations will be played out further down the line.

What I’m wondering is what to do about skills. SSIS suggests characters should start as lay members of Ernalda/Orlanth thus gaining those passions and cult skills? (Do Lay members start with cult skills?) Then going on to initiate into the clan Wyter and community through the adulthood ritual.

So I could just go with that, create a clan Wyter etc. This would grant Rune Magic etc (To emphasise the start of their journey I’m starting them off with just 1 Rune point and 2 spirit points)

How’s all that sound? Instead of a Wyter I could just have them all initiate into Ernalda, useful spells there and one less cult to worry about but I also want to emphasise community.

To add I may grant each a single skill bonus from their chosen cults.

Edited March 17 by Super Thunder Bros.

[Squaredeal Sten]

In my unofficial opinion ( but it worked for my campaign) they don't get the cult skills or magic until after initiation.  The only exception is their first rune spell, when they sac their first POW point to initiate.   Then skills and spells  not all at once, but the cult gives a free accelerated Training program (work half time, train half time] in the first year or two, in cult skills including Worship, and also magic.  

The same with occupational skills, really.  Though a farmer or potter will learn some of the parents" skills in early childhood, a heavy  cavalryman won't. (But once they come of age  the village will train them to fight in the fyrd, the militia.)   And no child has the 75% professional skill level at age 16.  The family and village will train them to be productive adults.

Look at RQG's advice on starting Adventurers younger than age 21.  RQG page 25, top of the right column.

But since your Adventurers will be starting at age 16 and not 21.and adventuring  early, then  by age 21 they should have professional skill levels.  Actual play shows they will be beyond that at age 21 if they live and you challenge them.

The actual pace of the free adulthood training should be adjusted to fit the adventures you plan to give them at ages 17-20, so you don't kill them off unnecessarily.

Edited March 17 by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling / typing

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, Super Thunder Bros. said:

So I could just go with that, create a clan Wyter etc. This would grant Rune Magic etc (To emphasise the start of their journey I’m starting them off with just 1 Rune point and 2 spirit points)

lay members have no access to rune magic. And the wyter doesn't provide rune magic for them to  Only the Wyter's priest can order the wyter to do things. So see it more as a "guardian spirit of the community" than a source of power for the pc.

 

so if they are not yet initiate, no rune magic at all 🙂 

I would say that's up to you to decide you if want young guys, not yet initiates .

If you think (event during the session) that they are not powerful enough, you have to choice :

1) the wyter or any other ally comes to save them.

2) just reduce the % and magic of their opponents.

 

That let your players discover the world and the rules with less options than confirmed pc (so no need to think if the best choice is this spell or this one.

For me, at 14-16 (before initiation) pc may have occupational skills (what do they do during their first years ? a farmer's child works in the field, a warrior's child see and is train the "honorable way", etc... )

they may learn 1 or 2 (at 10%) cult skills (because they participate and see their parents worship their gods), but not the cult lore (that's secret you learn once you are initiate)

Same with personal skills (1 or 2, 10%) it allows players with the same occupation / cult (often the same couple by the way) to be really different. Maybe one has a friendship with an elf, or a lunar. Maybe one like to run alone in the wild, etc...

 

Keep in mind that in middle age (so I imagine that's the same or even "worst" before), at 6-8 a knight's boy started to learn the different skills of his father and of his cult (animal lore, read/write, customs, sing, dance then later, riding, weapons) and I m pretty sure that until school is mandatory and "full time" or about, any child did the same, the only difference being what kind of occupation, depending on their wealth and opportunities.

[Geoff R Evil]

As a GM be aware that ALL pre written scenarios are set assuming age 21 generated chars, multiple rune spells, and some skills well in excess of 75%. Couple that with the speed of development for characters is quite slow, even at low skill levels. So either be prepared to write a lot of your own stuff, or modify pre written ones a lot, many are hard to do so. Either that or find ways to allow large tracts of time for training and ways to pay for it for the chars. In the game I played in, our GM introduced a minor hero quest that allowed us to accelerate some key skills. We focussed on fighting skills. That has left us unbalanced though, because outside of combat we struggle a bit, but we are closing that gap now. It does mean my 17 year old Humakti is able to kick much more mature NPCs.

Also I don’t advise initiating all PCs to Ernalda. Unless your rites encompass men. Even then the runic alignments needed for that don’t match well with many other cults outside the earth cults. Also initiates have to give up one seventh of time or money, which is substantial. In general players are not meant to initiate in more than two cults either, so while it aligns them in one way it delimits them in another. YGMV.

[Super Thunder Bros.]

5 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

lay members have no access to rune magic. And the wyter doesn't provide rune magic for them to  Only the Wyter's priest can order the wyter to do things. So see it more as a "guardian spirit of the community" than a source of power for the pc.

Just for info Six seasons in Sartar has the players adult initiation take the form of initiating into the community and it’s Wyter, granting Rune points and spells 

[radmonger]

Canonically, the initiation process takes two years, nominally from age 16 to 18. Actual character age varies, and is commonly younger, but if you are going to play through it there are obvious reasons for picking the high end. At the end of it, a PC has a cult, 3 rune spells and full occupational and cult skills. But they lack the 150 points of personal skill bonus granted by step 7 of the character creation process.

There are no official rules for starting younger, as in Six Seasons in Sartar. My house rules are

• Initiation starts with the adulthood ordeal, and ends with cult confirmation. Some people use the word initiation interchangeably for all three; I find that confusing.
• PCs gain access to their first Rune Spell in the first downtime after the adulthood ordeal  (or arguably during it).
• The first Rune Spell learnt should normally be one available to the clan temple they underwent the adulthood ordeal at; exceptions are rare omens indicating plot.
• a PC is confirmed into a cult only when they have learnt a combination of spells that are only taught by that cult. Due to the existence of associated cults, this can be the third spell learnt, or later. 

Examples:

• Korstaval learns Lightning immediately after his adulthood rite. He is immediately confirmed as an initiate of Orlanth Adventerous.
• Serenkos starts with Analyse Magic. According to the treaties that established the tribal confederation, the clan has the right to send one teenager from each age cohort to the Lhankhor Mhy temple in Jonstown for free cult training. Serenkos is selected for this role. He spends several seasons there over the two year period, learning Worship Lhankhor Mhy, and gaining Knowledge and Truespeak.
• Venarg starts with Heal Body, and then gains Shield, the pair of spells associated with both Ernalda and Orlanth. They confirm themselves as an Ernalda initiate when they gain Command Snake.
• Sarovulf starts with Wolf's Head, a spell from the clan's traditional enemy, the Telmori wolf people. The last time this happened, 5 generations ago, the unfortunate individual was immediately exiled. A PC heading down this path is at risk of the same fate, unless they abandon heir heritage, or can reconcile it with loyalty to the clan.

Traditionalist Sartarite clans, including the Haraborn, divide the teenagers by apparent biological sex and have them undergo either the Orlanthi or Ernaldan adulthood ordeal correspondingly. However, the association between Orlanth and Ernalda allows effectively transferring between the cults before full adulthood; this corresponds to the Vingan and Nandan gender-based subcults.

In Nochet, the capital of Esrolia, everyone of all sexes initiates at the earth temple. So all Orlanthi initiated in Nochet are first and foremost the husband-protectors of Ernalda, of equal status with her other husbands.

So logically, there are likely to be southern clans, influenced by Esrolian practices, who initiate everyone according to the Ernaldan rites, but with a strong bias towards Orlanth as the sole husband-protector. Traditionalist clans may point out this results in rather fewer Humakti, Storm Bulls and Eurmali. But, for obvious reasons,  they are unbothered by that.

 

 

Edited March 18 by radmonger

[French Desperate WindChild]

12 hours ago, Super Thunder Bros. said:

Just for info Six seasons in Sartar has the players adult initiation take the form of initiating into the community and it’s Wyter, granting Rune points and spells 

I didn't know but as I indurstand the rules (p286) that's seems to me the author house rules. Not an issue, just to keep it in mind:

Quote

A wyter may cast spirit magic or Rune spells on any member of its community when directed to by its priest. The wyter may even simultaneously cast the same spell on multiple members of the community by spending additional points of POW. Each point of POW spent lets the wyter cast the spell on an additional five members of the community

 

however, if we see the wyter's worship as a spirit cult, there is no reason to not have one rune spell.

[Super Thunder Bros.]

@radmonger Ah interesting, thank you for breaking down your house rules.

Do you run any kind of ritual/vision/Heroquest for cult confirmation?

[radmonger]

44 minutes ago, Super Thunder Bros. said:

Do you run any kind of ritual/vision/Heroquest for cult confirmation?

Not normally, if only because it is impractical for me to run that many solo sessions. Note that by the rules as far back as RQ2, cult initiation only requires a test for outsiders to the cult. And so, as I understand and play it, that means that for non-exiled members of a clan that has a tribal or federation treaty with a temple to that cult, confirmation is automatic,  whether in or before play.

In my interpretation/house rules a ritual visit to the other side is required to gain any Rune Spell. Normally the stakes are minimal, so repeated attempts are possible. The standard period of 5 days to gain a Rune spell can perhaps be broken down to:

day 1. blind attempt, staking all MP

day 2: recuperate MP, talk over with instructor what they did wrong

day 3. second attempt, again staking all MP.

day 4+: repeat previous two days until successful or one party gives up.

Because eventual success is normally guaranteed, unless there is extreme tine or resource pressure, it doesn't need to be rolled for, let alone played out. But if it makes logistic and thematic sense for your campaign to run cameos like that, then do so.

In any case, it is useful to establish as a thing that happens, if only so you can disrupt it when a Lunar heroquester shows up half way through:

Quote

Something else – when Jar-eel and her followers disrupt Kallyr’s Lightbringers Quest, people wake up to the realization that it is possible to do the same to other heroquests. Common paths are opposed or blocked. Repetition of the familiar becomes more dangerous than experimental paths. 

In that period,  a surprisingly large number of key tribal leaders awoke from their wedding celebrations to find out they were married to a disciple of Jar Eel. Some even survived he experience.

[hipsterinspace]

On 3/17/2024 at 9:07 AM, Super Thunder Bros. said:

Players will start as young Lay members of their cults as well as lay members of Ernalda as she is a central figure in this clan. First sessions will be adulthood initiations, cult initiations will be played out further down the line.

What I’m wondering is what to do about skills. SSIS suggests characters should start as lay members of Ernalda/Orlanth thus gaining those passions and cult skills? (Do Lay members start with cult skills?) Then going on to initiate into the clan Wyter and community through the adulthood ritual.

Most adulthood initiations happen in the initiand's early teens, and as mentioned previously, the rites are conducted based on what bits they were born with. It's a rite of passage that generally coincides with the beginning of puberty, so the Ernaldan adulthood initiation happens at menarche while the Orlanthi adulthood initiation happens in cohorts every few years. It is about becoming a member of the clan and tribe, understanding what it means to have the responsibilities of kinship and community, and experiencing through the gods what one's role in that community is going to be. After, they become lay members in the cult they intend to initiate into to and begin an apprenticeship period of two or so years where the initiand learns what it means to be a full member of their cult. They are taught the specifics of their social/vocational roles and the mysteries of their cult, at the end of which they sacrifice their characteristic POW to formally initiate into the cult. It seems rather straightforward to assume that the cult skills represent that two year apprenticeship period.

On 3/17/2024 at 8:06 PM, radmonger said:

Traditionalist Sartarite clans, including the Haraborn, divide the teenagers by apparent biological sex and have them undergo either the Orlanthi or Ernaldan adulthood ordeal correspondingly. However, the association between Orlanth and Ernalda allows effectively transferring between the cults before full adulthood; this corresponds to the Vingan and Nandan gender-based subcults.

Though I'd imagine most people would probably have some idea beforehand, during adulthood initiation the initiand is chosen by a god and experience that god. Pointedly, not all vingans are Vingans, not all nandani are Nandani, where they go depends on that direct personal experience of the divine rather than the particulars of their gender identity (also, Nandani are just regular Ernaldans in terms of cult). So, while the ordeal may begin as a gender-normative Orlanthi or Ernaldan ritual, their experience is wholly personal and can go in a much different direction.

[radmonger]

5 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

also, Nandani are just regular Ernaldans in terms of cult

Having checked, you are right; in the Cults books there is an asymmetry between Nanda and Vinga. Vinga is a subcult, Nanda a subservient cult. Six Paths has them both as subcults. 

Not sure if there is any deep mythical  or anthropological difference implied by that fine rules distinction. Perhaps Chaosium just didn't want the flak for calling Vinga subservient...

 

 

 

[Cassius]

@Super Thunder Bros. : You may find my description of an adulthood initiation in a Sartarite clan useful. This whole thread contains some good ideas on the topic, by the way.

[Akhôrahil]

On 3/17/2024 at 2:07 PM, Super Thunder Bros. said:

Players will start as young Lay members of their cults as well as lay members of Ernalda as she is a central figure in this clan. First sessions will be adulthood initiations, cult initiations will be played out further down the line.

What I’m wondering is what to do about skills. SSIS suggests characters should start as lay members of Ernalda/Orlanth thus gaining those passions and cult skills? (Do Lay members start with cult skills?) Then going on to initiate into the clan Wyter and community through the adulthood ritual.

In my opinion, you become a lay member of Orlanth or Ernalda (typically) through adulthood initiations, with the cult skills arriving as part of the training and education for it (some of which might come beforehand and some after, but it's probably easiest to hand them out as part of adulthood initiations). Cult initiations typically come a few (but only a few) years later, maybe at 18. The Wyter... not sure, but it seems weird to me if you would be an adult in the clan without magical clan membership for any length of time, so it might either come as part of the adulthood initiation or very closely afterwards.

[Super Thunder Bros.]

Thanks @Akhôrahil I’m going to leave things on the Wyter front for now as it probably complicates things.

Just to check, post adulthood initiation, you’d award them all of the Orlantha/Ernalda cult skill bonuses? 
 

Would you then award the skill bonuses associated with their individual cults after that initiation too?

[Akhôrahil]

3 hours ago, Super Thunder Bros. said:

Thanks @Akhôrahil I’m going to leave things on the Wyter front for now as it probably complicates things.

Just to check, post adulthood initiation, you’d award them all of the Orlantha/Ernalda cult skill bonuses?

Welll... technically you earn the bonuses in the time between adulthood initiation and cult initiation, which can be a few years, but this is probably worth expediting so that the PCs can get the magical goodies. It's probably easiest either to ask them what cult they're looking to initiate into and give them the cult skill package soon enough (within a season or two?), or if you want it more detailed, simply ignore the cult skill bonus package altogether and run it as regular training where the cults provide such training in cult skills and ignore the cult skill bonus package altogether (after all, it's meant to be a simplified way to keep track of what you were taught in a cult, so it serves no particular purpose if you just track in-game training instead). I would lean towards the latter if you're tracking season by season, honestly.

[Super Thunder Bros.]

15 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Welll... technically you earn the bonuses in the time between adulthood initiation and cult initiation, which can be a few years, but this is probably worth expediting so that the PCs can get the magical goodies. It's probably easiest either to ask them what cult they're looking to initiate into and give them the cult skill package soon enough (within a season or two?), or if you want it more detailed, simply ignore the cult skill bonus package altogether and run it as regular training where the cults provide such training in cult skills and ignore the cult skill bonus package altogether (after all, it's meant to be a simplified way to keep track of what you were taught in a cult, so it serves no particular purpose if you just track in-game training instead). I would lean towards the latter if you're tracking season by season, honestly.

Oh my mistake. I thought you meant give everyone Orlanths/Ernalda’s skill packages due to being lay members 

[Shiningbrow]

On 4/5/2024 at 4:02 AM, Akhôrahil said:

but this is probably worth expediting so that the PCs can get the magical goodies.

Except, they don't get to understand just how powerful and useful it really is in-game later. (sort of like a reverse 'you never know what you've got til you've lost it' type of thing)

Imagine a 14 year old having to limp home bleeding down the leg to mummy & daddy because a dog bit them... and they haven't learnt any heal spells yet... "This, Little Johnny, is why you don't want to always be the class clown and disown society... Now, be more respectful of your teachers in the future."

[radmonger]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

Imagine a 14 year old having to limp home bleeding down the leg to mummy & daddy because a dog bit them...

The Valley of Plenty campaign starts with children stick fighting, partly to teach the combat rules.

It's not a lesson you want to learn for the fight time when fighting one on one, to the death.

There is nothing in-setting that indicates that adulthood initiation, even the hardcore backwoods version the Haraborn use, normally has something like a 25% fatality rate. If  it actually is always this bad, the Haraborn are a crazy death cult, and the Lunars are arguably right to destroy them. 

So I think you need to pick one or more of:

• you are really not supposed to continue on beyond the pits. You get plenty of warnings not to. If you do, it's ok to have some PCs die to show the warnings were justified. This is the default approach recommended in the text.
• omens are bad this year, for plot reasons. This ordeal is going to be a lot more for-real than normal. It's ok for some PCs to die, just to show how bad things are,
• on death, you awake in Orlanth's stead with a headache and a 'fear chaos' passion
• after the ritual of the pits, you have 1 Rune spell available. Perhaps of your choice, perhaps chosen by GM, perhaps chosen when used.
• Due to the mythic state of the world at this point in the quest, there is no death. So you can do things normally impossible. Such as cast healing magic after the broo wanders off after they get bored of stabbing you while you lie on the floor bleeding. 

Any of these is valid if you set expectations beforehand.