Worship and Rune Point Replenishment Question (rant)

[Tiný]

Yes I'm sure someone has pointed this out before but here we go ...we have a worship (god ) skill % ...so Bodrick the Infirm is a initiate  of Orlanth lets us say with 10 POW & 12 cha and 4 rune points , he has 4 special orlanthi rune spells .He has been on an adventure and has returned to a local city in sartar with 0 rune points left .He goes to the temple on a normal seasonal holy day and wants to replenish his rune points .

He has a worship orlanth skill of 25% BUT he can increase this through certain factors..its a seasonal holy day so +20%  and its a minor temple so + 10%...he has a cow brought up to be sacrificed (20-30 L)  so that adds +20% ...he has to give up 2 MP the temple and wait he adds 6 more mp as a boost  to give himself +60% ....should he sacrifice some objects ,,WAIT whats this 300 lunars of goods gives  only +20 % but that cow gave the same and only cost max city price 40 lunars ? what the devil? hell no I will stay with horses and cows thank you very much ..so no object sacrifice . Lets do the math here 25% + 20% + 10% + 20% + 60%  thats errrr 135% and WAIT WAIT what if he augments this skill roll as its really really important using a rune ?  hey he rolls its thats another +20% cool ..so where are we now ..errr 145%..he rolls 78% success .Yeah go me !

The point being, why is the animal sacrifice so cheap compared to the object sacrifice ?..yes I know you might be in the deep wilds BUT still...and  with the MP boost ..(doesnt matter the MP's come back in 24 hours so no big deal might as well use the boost)  most PC have like 12 MP ..you could boost the roll by 80%  or 100 % yes you could fumble but the chances are VERY low and with augment using a high % rune affinity you are even more certain, and could you use meditate skill to add more perhaps? So why have a worship skill at all ..seems rather lame that it can be boosted so easily.

Oh and Bodrick will spend a week and give up 4 pow points to get  4 more rune points yum yum ...his low pow will be back with re-rolls before you know it easy ..maybe he should join a few more associated cults  for  even more rune points .....12 rune points with each cult of 3 cults = 36 rune points......it will take a long long  time perhaps he can hide in a temple basement most days polishing idols  but he will unstopable in the end ..... well except for that good old spirit combat  and pow vs pow resistance  rolls.

Btw I am fully behind the person who said "runepoints spent on extension spells can not be replenished while the spell it extended is still active " i.e Bodriks shield 3 with extension 5 which is good for 1 year will be 8 runepoints he CAN'T get back until that spell is dismissed etc Tough luck pal!!

Runequest rules are  just the framework so people can play in the world of glorantha and have a wonderful time ,THEY are not the point at all......the personal  in game experience IS.

Rant off 😊

 

 

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

I agree, the Worship Skill rules with all the adjustments are a waste of electrons and paper.  Anybody who plays them for more than a minute would realize that, which makes me believe that they were never critically play tested.

[John Biles]

Can Orlanth eat some bar of incense you sacrificed to him?  No.

Can he eat a cow?  Yes.

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

46 minutes ago, John Biles said:

Can Orlanth eat some bar of incense you sacrificed to him?  No.

Can he eat a cow?  Yes.

 

Most of the cow is eaten by the worshippers.

[svensson]

OK, let's start off with Rule One: Maximum Game Fun. Self explanatory. There are those folks who like the number crunching and there are those that don't. As a referee, you have to set the game up and alter your technique to please your audience or you won't have one.

Next thing: In my opinion, SOME mechanics are necessary to underline the tie between the gods and their cultists. RQG is different than RQ2 and 3 in that cults are not longer a source for powers and skills. There is a lot less of the 'can I be a member of Orlanth [for Lightning and Flight] but still be a member of Humakt [for Truesword and Sever Spirit]?' nonsense that we used to do. Show of hands from the old geeks, how many of you tried to join Lanbril to get training in lock picking even though you were an initiate of a Truth cult? 😉

My point is that some sacrifice mechanics are a useful tool to show the player that their god needs their support just as much as they need the god's support. But I totally see where you don't need to go berzerk with it.

What's more, it's useful to have a member of the party with magical skills... not spells, but skills... Worship [x], Meditate, Spirit Combat, and so forth. And just like with the warriors and sneaky guy and the talky guy, the magical professional needs a least some room for those skill points to shine. Vasana's Band would be a lot less capable if she didn't have Yanioth and Vishi in it, right?

Edited Saturday at 04:50 AM by svensson

[John Biles]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Most of the cow is eaten by the worshippers.

Most of the cow's body, which can't go to his realm, but he gets the soul of the cow.

[Ali the Helering]

From the Epic of Gilgamesh, concerning Utnapishtim's sacrifice after the flood:

The gods smelled the savour, the gods smelled the sweet savour, and collected like flies over a (sheep) sacrifice.

Whilst not the most complimentary picture of the gods, it vividly depicts their hunger for burning meat.

In the Hebrew scriptures it is only the "fatmost parts" that are actually munched upon by YHWH, the rest going to the worshippers.

[svensson]

And as the embodiment of Elemental Air, Orlanth would certainly enjoy incense.

Or BBQ sauce. Whatever. 🤣

[Tiný]

lots of good feedback ...noice ...Its also very good for flavour and makes the world seem more real .."ahem bodrick our god is fed and well pleased but he lacks a real sign of your devotion..my! my! thats very shiney rune metal armour you have on ...how nice ! what was I saying? " say runepriest 😆

[soltakss]

14 hours ago, Tiný said:

So why have a worship skill at all ..seems rather lame that it can be boosted so easily.

It makes it easy for Adventurers to regain Rune Points. Why is that a bad thing?

Sure, it is easy enough to just say "You get all your Rune Points back when worshipping at a Temple", and that won't break anything.

[svensson]

6 hours ago, John Biles said:

Most of the cow's body, which can't go to his realm, but he gets the soul of the cow.

Not to be TOO peckish about it, but spirit of a cow would probably go to Uralda/Eiritha for rebirth.

Obviously the deity the cow was sacrificed to gets something out of the transaction, but I think that's more in line with the deity benefiting from the worshiper's devotion rather than the life spark of the animal itself.

[Malin]

16 hours ago, Tiný said:

 So why have a worship skill at all ..seems rather lame that it can be boosted so easily.

I agree with your analysis. The players in my campaign mostly sacrifice magic points, and we only roll the worship rolls to see if there is a fumble or a critical because some cool things might happen then.

I use sacrifices for other reasons, like community reputation (what do you mean you only sacrificed a chicken last holy day? Cheapskate). A huge object sacrifice (which might be displayed in the temple afterward) will give a permanent reputation bonus.

For me, the tension of the worship roll comes into play when you are in less-than-ideal situations. For example, are you at a temple, desperate for runepoints even though there are weeks to the next holy day? Sacrifice enough goods and animals to convince the priest to have a special service and the gods to look favorably on you regardless. Priests don't care about magic points, they need material goods. The magic points will be required to overcome the negative modifier for not doing it on a holy day. Do you want to worship at a loosely associated temple? Bring a proper sacrifice. If you are in strange lands or under bad circumstances, I might rule that sacrifices are needed to cast the Sanctify spell at all.

The rules as is are... lacking. But they contain enough moving parts that they are easy to play around with and adapt.

[Akhôrahil]

MP sacrifice is almost free. You should never spend any cash if you’re just looking to optimize.

Everyone will always have a 95% chance to succeed on Worship. The only point of decent numbers in the skill is to qualify for priesthood.

This is a really lame rules design. 

My preferred solution would be that you offer MPs alongside a real sacrifice. That way, temple size and worship skill matters.

Edited Saturday at 12:34 PM by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

10 minutes ago, Malin said:

I use sacrifices for other reasons, like community reputation (what do you mean you only sacrificed a chicken last holy day? Cheapskate).

I would rule that your socially expected sacrifices are baked into the Cult costs, but that you can go above and beyond this.

In general, RQ is bad at handling sacrifices, especially of the type that was historically super common - of course you sacrifice to the god of the seas before you board the ship, even if you’re not an ”initiate”. Anything else is outright hazardous.

Edited Saturday at 12:39 PM by Akhôrahil

[Joerg]

Basically you offer cows when you want a minor holiday service to have enough attendance - people love feasts. You offer items if you need to buy your way into the favor of the local temple, to overcome potential sources of distrust or ethnic prejudices, or if you want to establish yourself as the up and coming new noble (possibly still to be elected).

Religious services have something to do with ostentation, as people who attend church in their Sunday best will have ingrained into their very being.

[svensson]

I see where people might have issues with the rules mechanics but let me offer a couple of personal things to the discussion that I think are valid...

I was a medieval reenactor in the SCA for many years. During that time, I was exposed to and participated in some alt religion rituals from a couple of groups in the 'born again pagan' community. Now, just like every religious practice here on Terra, the pagan /heathen community has its share of nuts and flakes. As we all know, matters of spirituality and belief tend to draw out the weirdo in a great many of us.

But as I read into some of these faiths [primarily Wicca and Ashatrur] I noticed some things that allowed me to divide the practitioners of these faiths into two groups: those who are knowledgeable and are actual believers and those who are not knowledgeable or committed and just want to be anything other than an Abrahamic monotheist. And in that latter group there was a strong thread of angry goth kids whose parents 'didn't understand them'. What can I say? It was the Pacific Northwest in the 90s....

Let me focus on the real practitioners, the people I have real respect for to this day, as it applies to this discussion in Glorantha.

The gods /goddess required more than just simple prayer and dancing around a fire. They required actual demonstrations of belief in the real world we all live in. It required more than symbolism, it required living a believing life. In the case of the Wiccans, the requirement was 'as you project shall you receive thrice-fold', for the Ashatrur it was embodying the god you hold the most faith in and living by the Havamal.

And when it came time for a sacrifice, these knowledgeable people sacrificed real goods of real world value. They did not sacrifice a circus cookie and pretend it was a cow or horse. Most of the time they sacrificed jewelry or other precious things... incense, spices and the like. In one case the practitioner sacrificed a horse that was due to be put down. I was told that this was NOT a common event... that the blood sacrifice was a big deal because it cost the worshiper thousands of dollars.

While the Episcopalian in me was repelled to a certain extent, I was also proud that these people trusted me as a member of their community. After all, no matter where you live such a ritual getting gossiped about in public would have been a Very Bad Thing. Most of all, I was deeply impressed with the devotion shown and the statement of belief in the ritual.

And while I have never discussed this at the gaming table, this is the point where I approach my gamer conceptions of Gloranthan ritual. Sure, the ritual mechanics may seem broken to many of you. That can be house-ruled at the table to suit your group and more power [Power?] to you. But I do think that devotion to the gods of Glorantha should cost the PC real effort and items of real value to them.

But YGWV.

Edited Saturday at 07:58 PM by svensson

[Akhôrahil]

45 minutes ago, svensson said:

While the Episcopalian in me was repelled to a certain extent

One interesting line of reasoning is that Christians also agree about the importance of sacrifices - it's just that Christ already performed the ultimate sacrifice to the point that nothing else is required any longer.

This was apparently a useful line in missionary work towards religions that performed sacrifices. (Another reported good talking point was "sure, there were evil sorcerers, but Jesus bested them all through superior powers".)

Are there sacrifices in Malkionism?

Edited Saturday at 02:23 PM by Akhôrahil

[svensson]

37 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Are there sacrifices in Malkionism?

Well, all that POW sorcerers need has to come from somewhere. And since Tap is off the table for most Malkioni, some kind of spiritual exercise [be it sacrifices or POW checks] would be necessary.

[Akhôrahil]

37 minutes ago, svensson said:

Well, all that POW sorcerers need has to come from somewhere. And since Tap is off the table for most Malkioni, some kind of spiritual exercise [be it sacrifices or POW checks] would be necessary.

I agree about feeding MPs or even POW into the system - I was more thinking about physical sacrifices.

[Ali the Helering]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

One interesting line of reasoning is that Christians also agree about the importance of sacrifices - it's just that Christ already performed the ultimate sacrifice to the point that nothing else is required any longer.

So explain to me how the service I officiate at Sunday by Sunday isn't a stylised cannibal feast at a human sacrifice......

[Rodney Dangerduck]

2 hours ago, svensson said:

Sure, the ritual mechanics may seem broken to many of you. That can be house-ruled at the table to suit your group and more power [Power?] to you. But I do think that devotion to the gods of Glorantha should cost the PC real effort and items of real value to them.

True.  I agree that devotion should cost the PC real effort.

Which is why the ritual mechanics are broken.  Because a measly trivial 2 MP gives the same effect as sacrificing your horse.

[svensson]

2 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

True.  I agree that devotion should cost the PC real effort.

Which is why the ritual mechanics are broken.  Because a measly trivial 2 MP gives the same effect as sacrificing your horse.

So up the MP requirements or finagle another of the mechanics.

Rules are guidelines, they didn't come down from the mountain graven in stone. DnD survived doing away with THACO and RQ will survive somebody tweaking the Rune Point recovery mechanics to suit their table.

[Akhôrahil]

4 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

True.  I agree that devotion should cost the PC real effort.

Which is why the ritual mechanics are broken.  Because a measly trivial 2 MP gives the same effect as sacrificing your horse.

I'm watching the (underrated!) American Gods tv series, and at one point, Mr. Wednesday sacrifices his car. 🙂

[Zebraman1]

I think if we're talking about a scenario where a worshipper is visiting a centre of worship on a holy day with a decent sacrafice....then yes the worship check should be pretty much a cert. Orlanth or any other god wants people to worship him successfully!

I don't think the scenario described in the OP is surprising or a bug.

[Tiný]

An interesting House rule might be to double cap the MP sacrifice ..so you give up 2 MP for the worship ritual and then can sacrifice only 2 more MP's i.e max +20% bonus.

This may force players to give up that newly won armour or nick nacks ..damn it ...but hell your rep would go up and leads to lots of fun roleplay .

As for the animal sacrifices entry  I think it was a typo (wink wink) and it should say horse's and cow's and only the best ones breed for this duty and costing 100 L each at HOYLWOC's animal sacrifice shop located right at the main gate of the temple where the elite meat treats are kept for purchase . "hey!! hey buddy!! whats this ? stop right there ! you cant take those animals in there without a temple purity permission slip from the Rune Priest ,yeah I Know he is my brother " says Hoylwoc to you as you try to herd in 2 scrawny half dead cows into the temple 😆