Solar Esrolia

[M Helsdon]

6 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

A possible answer: imagining things differently may lead to a greater appreciation or understanding of the “standard model” — you don’t know all the things that would break until you think it through. “What if things were different …” is not necessarily an assault on things as they are. Sometimes, it is a way of understanding them.

This seems to be major change to the setting, and the ramifications proliferate to change the social and historical dynamics. None needs to define their terms of reference as it isn't clear what they mean by a Solar Esrolia - instead I wonder if they really want suggestions for a Solar-Earth culture which isn't a copy of the Dara Happan Yelm/Dendara society just dropped into the geographical region of Esrolia. 

Far from being an assault this seems to be a thought experiment but its parameters aren't clear, at least to me.

13 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

And surely our motto is not “your Glorantha may vary … but only a little bit or we’ll send the heavies round”. 😉

The heavies in this case being the changes to the setting which proliferate beyond the borders of Esrolia. Esrolia is an Orlanthi culture, as you know, where the dynamic between Air and Earth is different from usual. If you swap out Air for Solar, the resulting culture isn't an Orlanthi variant but something completely different. That has major ramifications across Maniria and Kethaela, and up into Dragon Pass, to the point where the entire history, from the Gods War onwards, is completely different. 

[Jeff]

4 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

A possible answer: imagining things differently may lead to a greater appreciation or understanding of the “standard model” — you don’t know all the things that would break until you think it through. “What if things were different …” is not necessarily an assault on things as they are. Sometimes, it is a way of understanding them.

And surely our motto is not “your Glorantha may vary … but only a little bit or we’ll send the heavies round”. 😉

No but at a certain point, it is worth asking whether this is an exploration of the setting or creation of a different setting. So at its base, the entire purpose of Esrolia in the setting is to be an area where the Earth goddesses are paramount. That's Esrolia (part of a land originally called Ernaldela in some of Greg's earlier writings). Old Tarsh was set up as a place where the more savage and blood-thirsty aspects of the Earth religion were on display.

Dara Happa was always the Solar homeland, and the horse tribes as the Solar overlords. Horses carry the Sun in the sky after all. Ehilm was the original Sun disk god, and upon expansion of the setting into Peloria and Dragon Pass, the name was refined to be Yelm and then Little Yelm (aka Yelmalio). 

So the question is why a "Solar Esrolia"? I get trying to figure out what cults might be available to a player who wants to play a Fire/Sky worshiper in Esrolia. I get the idea of trying to figure out a storyline where that solar player character ends up marrying the Queen of Esrolia as her Esrolian husband, and trying to figure out how the cults might deal with that. That's completely within the ambit of the setting. But to change Esrolia from the center of the Earth cults in Genertela to being a Solar land seems to me like imagining what if Sauron ruled from Minith Tirith at the start of the War of the Rings. Sure you can imagine it, but you end up with something definitely not Tolkien's Middle Earth. 

But nobody is stopping you from musing about that or posting those thoughts on this forum.

[mfbrandi]

8 minutes ago, Jeff said:

But nobody is stopping you from musing about that or posting those thoughts on this forum.

Sure. But when someone says “what if we imagined things differently” it seems to me they often get the response “but we didn’t, we imagined it this way!” But maybe I misread people — it wouldn’t be the first time. 😉

[Jeff]

13 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Sure. But when someone says “what if we imagined things differently” it seems to me they often get the response “but we didn’t, we imagined it this way!” But maybe I misread people — it wouldn’t be the first time. 😉

Yeah, I think that people understandably try to bring a discussion back towards something that could work within the broad ambit of the setting and core texts (in this case the RQ core rules, Glorantha sourcebook, and Earth Goddesses).  

[None]

4 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

You still need to define what this alternate society is going to be like. What are you hoping to achieve?

Nothing really. I was just curious and thought it could be fun to speculate. See solar cultures as I know them (which is admittedly mostly just Dara Happa) are very stratified and rather rigid. Esrolia though not so much (well, yes its also very stratified but not in the same way, at least I don't think so but it might just be me nitpicking.

They also have quite different style with Dara Happpa being far more overtly imperialistic I guess you could call it to mention one thing, while Esrolia is more diplomatic?

So I just wondered how would Esrolia change if it was a solar culture instead? Or I guess you could phrase it as how would an Esroliaesque sun culture look like and then place it somewhere else where it won't disturb the setting to the point you have to rework everything. Even though I find the idea of how a Sartar surround by sun cultures would be a little interesting even if only as  pure speculation.

4 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

None needs to define their terms of reference as it isn't clear what they mean by a Solar Esrolia - instead I wonder if they really want suggestions for a Solar-Earth culture which isn't a copy of the Dara Happan Yelm/Dendara society just dropped into the geographical region of Esrolia.

Well dropping down just another Dara Happa on he geographical region of Esrolia seem all that interesting as a thought experiment to me. I mean you could I guess but we already know how that would look like and it feels like the only thing that would happen is that the tension between Sartar (and other Orlanthi nations in the are) and Dara Esrolia would intensify. Ho and Claldraland would probably either be subsumed into Dara Esrolia or have a very tense relationship with them.

4 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Far from being an assault this seems to be a thought experiment but its parameters aren't clear, at least to me.

It is a thought experiment. As for parameters, I tried not to set to many but but I think I said that making Esrolia into just another Dara Happa felt a little ... pointless? Uninterestin? As in it's just Dara Happa then and it's kind of already done up in Peloria.

4 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

The heavies in this case being the changes to the setting which proliferate beyond the borders of Esrolia. Esrolia is an Orlanthi culture, as you know, where the dynamic between Air and Earth is different from usual. If you swap out Air for Solar, the resulting culture isn't an Orlanthi variant but something completely different. That has major ramifications across Maniria and Kethaela, and up into Dragon Pass, to the point where the entire history, from the Gods War onwards, is completely different.

Which could be kind of the point when you're asking a what if? True not really usable as anything but as a thought experiment as it would require a tremendous amount of work to make it  actually usable in play but on the other hand if you want to really shake things up a bit I guess you could.

As for a more useful result. You could while doing such a thought experiment stumble upon an idea you think is really neat and decide to place it somewhere on the map where it wont disturb everything to such an enormous degree. Or you might not its kind of hit and miss.

 

Personally I've been a bit about the idea with joined sun ziggurats / earth temples but I feel like you'd probably end up with a sun ziggurat on top of an earth temple that is submerged beneath the earth. Both probably having their own entrances as well as a way to pass between the two on the inside via a staircase of some kind.

If you want to take it even further you could make it so  that the ziggurats are built to gather sunlight and send it down onto the centre of the earth temples and then have the culture be really focused on the life and fertilizing giving light of the sun and the fertility and fecundity of the earth. Probably with a sky/earth marriage but without the subordination of women that for some reason (why by the way?) seem to happen whenever sun and earth gods are involved with eachother (or at least according to the Caladra & Aurelion section in the Eartrh Godesses book).

Of course for all I know that might already exist somewhere on Glorantha but if so I'm not aware of it.

For another variation you could just remove the individual entrance to the earth temple or the sun ziggurat. Requiring you to go through the other two reach the one without an entrance. Which then feels like it change the implied relationship or dynamic between the two.

 

As for a Solar Esrolia. What I came up with was pretty much an Esrolia that worshipped an Ernalda the Sun Goddess who generously and freely gives of her warm light to everyone. And instead of an food mafia you'd have a sunlight mafia. Which ironically make her her work very well with Orlanth the cloud-bringer anyway. Despite being a solar deity. Completely unusable in normal Glorantha but it was fun to come up with.

[M Helsdon]

1 hour ago, None said:

Nothing really. I was just curious and thought it could be fun to speculate. See solar cultures as I know them (which is admittedly mostly just Dara Happa) are very stratified and rather rigid. Esrolia though not so much (well, yes its also very stratified but not in the same way, at least I don't think so but it might just be me nitpicking.

The one thing that is very different in Glorantha to other settings is that the mythology is heavily embedded in the cultures, and sometimes even the geography. You have the whole Orlanth/Yelm/Ernalda history where Ernalda is rescued by Orlanth from concubinage, the competition of Yelm and Orlanth ending in Yelm's death, and then the Lightbringers' Quest to bring Yelm out of the Underworld. So it's very difficult to see Ernalda change from an Earth to a Solar power, unless, instead of sleeping during the Great Darkness, you have her retain some Light powers from her time at Yelm's court. This has all sorts of implications, because if she takes Yelmalio's role as a light in the darkness she can't be asleep, so the seasonal myth of the Earth Goddesses sleeping in the winter is eroded. I'm sure there are mythic ramifications to such changes.

Change the major myths and you change the cosmos.

What might be easier is to magnify Yelmalio's role; he's already a husband-protector of Ernalda in Esrolia, albeit a lesser one. However, an Esrolian Yelmalio isn't going to be identical to the cult in Saird or Prax - though in some places in Saird Yelmalio is the husband or consort of the Great Green Lady, Ernalda, and this is true in Prax. You might have an alternate Esrolia where Yelmalio's light in the Great Darkness was sufficiently bright that Ernalda didn't sleep, that some agriculture was still possible. The mythic implications would be significant and instead of being a relatively minor cult in Esrolia, the Little Sun might rival that of Orlanth....

That might be the easiest way to create a Solar Esrolia, but then you have to work out what a more 'earthy' Yelmalio might be like. He probably won't be a god of a phalanx, or as prudish as the cult in Prax. You might then have Sun Dome temples, ziggurats with domes, but very different culturally to those of Saird and Prax, and have an Ernalda who, as she does, has several consorts: Solar, Air, Darkness.

There will still be implications to this, as this enhanced Yelmalio will mean other deities will have a reduced influence. This is going to cause changes through history, so it isn't without problems.

[None]

54 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

The one thing that is very different in Glorantha to other settings is that the mythology is heavily embedded in the cultures, and sometimes even the geography. You have the whole Orlanth/Yelm/Ernalda history where Ernalda is rescued by Orlanth from concubinage, the competition of Yelm and Orlanth ending in Yelm's death, and then the Lightbringers' Quest to bring Yelm out of the Underworld. So it's very difficult to see Ernalda change from an Earth to a Solar power, unless, instead of sleeping during the Great Darkness, you have her retain some Light powers from her time at Yelm's court. This has all sorts of implications, because if she takes Yelmalio's role as a light in the darkness she can't be asleep, so the seasonal myth of the Earth Goddesses sleeping in the winter is eroded. I'm sure there are mythic ramifications to such changes.

Which is one of the reasons why I was just theorizing such a what if senario for fun. You can estimate continue to build out the consequences or just ignore the ripples and inconsistencies after a certain point and only concern yourself with the local effects and a "well, how would it look?" But in both cases its still not feasible to use in play (beyond maybe short scenarios I suppose) unless you radically alter the setting. And yes, by which point you're already halfway to creating an entirely new setting. Doesn't mean it can't still be interesting, or lead to some nifty ideas.

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

What might be easier is to magnify Yelmalio's role; he's already a husband-protector of Ernalda in Esrolia, albeit a lesser one. However, an Esrolian Yelmalio isn't going to be identical to the cult in Saird or Prax - though in some places in Saird Yelmalio is the husband or consort of the Great Green Lady, Ernalda, and this is true in Prax. You might have an alternate Esrolia where Yelmalio's light in the Great Darkness was sufficiently bright that Ernalda didn't sleep, that some agriculture was still possible. The mythic implications would be significant and instead of being a relatively minor cult in Esrolia, the Little Sun might rival that of Orlanth....

That might be the easiest way to create a Solar Esrolia, but then you have to work out what a more 'earthy' Yelmalio might be like. He probably won't be a god of a phalanx, or as prudish as the cult in Prax. You might then have Sun Dome temples, ziggurats with domes, but very different culturally to those of Saird and Prax, and have an Ernalda who, as she does, has several consorts: Solar, Air, Darkness.

There will still be implications to this, as this enhanced Yelmalio will mean other deities will have a reduced influence. This is going to cause changes through history, so it isn't without problems.

I like this one. 😄 I think I'll file it away in my memory for if I ever want to run with a differently flavoured Esrolia (and Yelmalio). My first tought was that this should fit pretty well with a Yelmalio who managed to fend of Orlanth and defeat Zoran Zorak (I think his name was) on the Hill of Gold.

[radmonger]

Armies and Enemies of Dragon Pass, which is close to primary canon, has Nolerianmar as ther patron god of the Golden Racers cavalry regiment. Harald Smith's Nochet Adventurer's guide describes them as a son of Yelmalio.

So Nolerianmar would be, in RQ:G terms, a subcult of Yelmalio. The Cults of Runequest series does attempt to be definitive and exhaustive for major cults. But. being only 11 volumes long, it can't possibly cover every subcult.

Hence creating the subcult of Yelmalio, Golden Racer bends, not breaks, canon. Creating such a subcult is straightforward. once you have a vision for what it should be. It will have most of the same core magic as Yelmalio. Sun Domer, but a different set of associates, and a different cultural role. The link above gives a guide for dong this.

Given such a subcult, it is not a stretch to say it 'rules' some minor corner of Esrolia, as current husband protector for Ernalda. Exploring that corner may prove fruitful. Perhaps the core dynamic would be the Golder Racer remained a cavalry god, when the Sun Domers dismounted. But Esrolian magic-based agricultural productivity allows everyone to ride. not just nobles. So the subcult escapes the trap of horse lords ruling oppressed farmers that the Sartarite Sun Domers gave up their horses to avoid.

 

 

[None]

12 hours ago, radmonger said:

Armies and Enemies of Dragon Pass, which is close to primary canon, has Nolerianmar as ther patron god of the Golden Racers cavalry regiment. Harald Smith's Nochet Adventurer's guide describes them as a son of Yelmalio.

So Nolerianmar would be, in RQ:G terms, a subcult of Yelmalio. The Cults of Runequest series does attempt to be definitive and exhaustive for major cults. But. being only 11 volumes long, it can't possibly cover every subcult.

Hence creating the subcult of Yelmalio, Golden Racer bends, not breaks, canon. Creating such a subcult is straightforward. once you have a vision for what it should be. It will have most of the same core magic as Yelmalio. Sun Domer, but a different set of associates, and a different cultural role. The link above gives a guide for dong this.

Given such a subcult, it is not a stretch to say it 'rules' some minor corner of Esrolia, as current husband protector for Ernalda. Exploring that corner may prove fruitful. Perhaps the core dynamic would be the Golder Racer remained a cavalry god, when the Sun Domers dismounted. But Esrolian magic-based agricultural productivity allows everyone to ride. not just nobles. So the subcult escapes the trap of horse lords ruling oppressed farmers that the Sartarite Sun Domers gave up their horses to avoid.

I like this idea too. It gives a different image of Yelmalio than the one M Heldson had. One where Yelmalio feels weaker but more focused and specialized. Also, yes, subcults are easier to implement and probably the way you'd have to go if you want to make a culture that worships a Yelm/Ernalda pairing as their main gods instead of a Yelm/Dendara one or a Ernalda with a sun god as an extra.

This does remind me though. Why is it as Jeff said earlier here:

On 9/30/2024 at 5:35 PM, Jeff said:

Yelm is too distant to worship directly,

And here:

On 10/2/2024 at 11:19 PM, Jeff said:

Yelm simply is too removed, too patriarchal, and too eclipsed by Orlanth in Esrolia to have a local cult

That Yelm is to distant and eclipsed by Orlanth in Esrolia? Patriarchal I can kind of get cinsidering how Yelm and Ernalda are and how both want to be the ruling god although in very different ways and unlike Orlanth Yelm probably isn't stupid enough o miss what Ernalda is doing. Even though I sometimes feel (particularly when I look at it as the goods being shaped by the mortals) that most of the gods' personalities are more results to the interpretations and ideas of the people worshipping them. So nothing says a Yelm worship in Esrolia should have a Yelm whose personality resemble the Pelorian, much less Dara Happan variant one. A culture the Esrolians shouldn't even have been aware of at the time.

To distant and eclipsed by Orlanth on the other hand? That I can't understand. With their warm, Mediterranean and close to the equator like (yes I know there is no equator in Glorantha) climate  and the bountiful yields of grown food they have. I'd imagine the sun to be a very significant and close by presence in Esrolia, the main contributing reason to their yields of food and something the Esrolians would feel far more favour and kinship to than Orlanth whose storms should be more of an unwelcome hazard at most.

Heler I could understand them liking and appreciating but Orlanth? No. Even if he can bring them Heler it doesn't add up to me. He still feels like an unnecessary middleman that brings more trouble than he is worth. Unlike the sun who al least I feel they would see as a lot more reliable and unproblematic.

Edited October 4 by None

[M Helsdon]

59 minutes ago, None said:

I like this idea too. It gives a different image of Yelmalio than the one M Heldson had. One where Yelmalio feels weaker but more focused and specialized. Also, yes, subcults are easier to implement and probably the way you'd have to go if you want to make a culture that worships a Yelm/Ernalda pairing as their main gods instead of a Yelm/Dendara one or a Ernalda with a sun god as an extra.

Umm, I wrote Armies & Enemies. Nolerianmar's is a very minor subcult - if it is still canonical.

In Esrolia Yelmalio probably has the attributes of a horse rider and chariot god (he pulls or drives Yelm's solar chariot) and a god of bow and spearmen. He is also important as he acts as the intermediary by which to approach the Sun God.

59 minutes ago, None said:

To distant and eclipsed by Orlanth on the other hand? That I can't understand. With their warm, Mediterranean and close to the equator like (yes I know there is no equator in Glorantha) climate  and the bountiful yields of grown food they have. I'd imagine the sun to be a very significant and close by presence in Esrolia, the main contributing reason to their yields of food and something the Esrolians would feel far more favour and kinship to than Orlanth whose storms should be more of an unwelcome hazard at most.

Heler I could understand them liking and appreciating but Orlanth? No. Even if he can bring them Heler it doesn't add up to me. He still feels like an unnecessary middleman that brings more trouble than he is worth. Unlike the sun who al least I feel they would see as a lot more reliable and unproblematic.

Orlanth's winds bring Heler's rain clouds. No Orlanth, no winds, no rain. A son of Ernalda and Orlanth is Barntar the plough man - necessary for agriculture.

Orlanth also rescued Ernalda from slavery at Yelm's court. 

You have to bear in mind that Yelm is remote even in Dara Happa. His initiates have to be of a lineage claiming descent from him.

Edited October 4 by M Helsdon

[None]

39 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Umm, I wrote Armies & Enemies. Nolerianmar's is a very minor subcult - if it is still canonical.

Oh. 😳 I rarely look at who the author of a book (or any other similar kind of work, even less so with rpg books) is or think to pay it any attention, I'm more interested in the book itself and its content. So I didn't notice. Sorry.

39 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Orlanth's winds bring Heler's rain clouds. No Orlanth, no winds, no rain.

I already said I don't feel that is enough of a reason. Plus, you could say the same about Yelm and the sun. Also if Yelmalio is enough to substitute for Yelm when it comes to sunlight it should be easy to a lesser, less hazardous air god for Orlanth if all you need is for someone to bring in the rain clouds. It also still makes the rain more important than the storm which doesn't have to bring rain.

39 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Orlanth also rescued Ernalda from slavery at Yelm's court. 

That's open for debate if you ask me. The Yelmic cultures don't even seem to know who Ernalda is and according to them Dendara who supposedly is their version of Ernalda remained with Yelm. I see that story as more of a Orlanthi head-cannon, or at most a story spun by Ernalda to fit with the narrative she wanted to present to Orlanth.

Also, Esrolia is located so far away from Pelora and Dara Happa and should have roots that stretch far beyond when the Orlanthi existed. I don't see why they would perceive the sun as someone why imprisoned and enslaved their goddess. The sun's light and warmth is more of a positive thing, especially if you want things to grow.

As for Barntar. That requires a Orlanth/Ernalda pairing to begin with and there is no reason he couldn't be the son of another go, or that there cou7old exist other plough men. The connection between ploughs and Orlanth is very tenuous to begin with. I'd say the only one whose truly required in that parentage is Ernalda. On top of that. A plough isn't strictly speaking necessary for agriculture and even if you say it is, that only make Barntar more important, not Orlanth.

Lastly. I never said I felt Orlanth should be non-existent in Esrolia, only that if feels likely he'd be fairly minor at most. So they could still have an Orlanth derived Barntar as the only really good part of Orlanth.

Edited October 4 by None

[radmonger]

Lemon trees need a lot of sunlight to produce good crops; so do most other citrus fruit. Nochet seems large enough it might have rural areas dedicated to growing luxury crops like that.

In those, the local Yelmalio, representing the power of both trees and the sun, would be a valued and useful husband for Ernalda. Perhaps his insecurities would be lessned when he has something to offer his wife beyond solely protection?

[Eff]

38 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Orlanth's winds bring Heler's rain clouds. No Orlanth, no winds, no rain. A son of Ernalda and Orlanth is Barntar the plough man - necessary for agriculture.

Orlanth also rescued Ernalda from slavery at Yelm's court. 

Ploughs are hardly necessary for agriculture, of course, and Barntar historically (in real-world terms) isn't the only god who invented a plow. 

But if Heler can't be summoned without a full Orlanth storm, wouldn't that make them something like a slave of Orlanth, without any independent existence? Do they not have sunshower in Glorantha, or gentle rain without gusts of wind?

[M Helsdon]

4 minutes ago, Eff said:

But if Heler can't be summoned without a full Orlanth storm, wouldn't that make them something like a slave of Orlanth, without any independent existence? Do they not have sunshower in Glorantha, or gentle rain without gusts of wind?

Mythically Orlanth rescued Heler from Aroka, the Blue Water Dragon. Heler became his staunch liegeman and sidekick. Without the wind, the clouds wouldn't move. Orlanth isn't just a storm, but the moving Air.

[M Helsdon]

11 minutes ago, None said:

I already said I don't feel that is enough of a reason. Plus, you could say the same about Yelm and the sun. Also if Yelmalio is enough to substitute for Yelm when it comes to sunlight it should be easy to a lesser, less hazardous air god for Orlanth if all you need is for someone to bring in the rain clouds. It also still makes the rain more important than the storm which doesn't have to bring rain.

Orlanth isn't just a storm, but the wind. 

12 minutes ago, None said:

That's open for debate if you ask me. The Yelmic cultures don't even seem to know who Ernalda is and according to them Dendara who supposedly is their version of Ernalda remained with Yelm. I see that story as more of a Orlanthi head-cannon, or at most a story spun by Ernalda to fit with the narrative she wanted to present to Orlanth.

Ernalda and Dendara are not the same goddess. In Dara Happa Ernalda is known as a concubine of Yelm and blamed for seducing the Sun God into mundane desires. She tainted his purity, whereas Dendara is less... earthy.

15 minutes ago, None said:

Also, Esrolia is located so far away from Pelora and Dara Happa and should have roots that stretch far beyond when the Orlanthi existed. I don't see why they would perceive the sun as someone why imprisoned and enslaved their goddess. The sun's light and warmth is more of a positive thing, especially if you want things to grow.

The Esrolians are a variant Orlanthi culture and share much the same myths, and so know that Orlanth rescued their Earth Goddess who willingly married him. The Sun isn't excluded from Esrolian theogony, being approached either directly by Ernalda or via Yelmalio.

[Eff]

4 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Mythically Orlanth rescued Heler from Aroka, the Blue Water Dragon. Heler became his staunch liegeman and sidekick. Without the wind, the clouds wouldn't move. Orlanth isn't just a storm, but the moving Air.

And yet one of the most densely-populated areas of Genertela has essentially no worship of Orlanth. You would think that if Orlanth were actually and practically "the moving Air", they would all be dead or undead, asphyxiated in a cloud of unbreathable poison. The actual iconography and descriptions and language for Orlanth in practice associates him with storms very specifically, and storms of particular types, even. 

So we come back to the question of whether Heler is Orlanth's boon companion/eromenos, and Barntar his son, or whether they are yoked and chained, manacled and hobbled, as his slaves or perhaps even fully depersonalized property. And if they are the former, then it should be possible to invoke them independently of Orlanth, to have rain without gales and lightning and hail, as happens conspicuously in the real world all the time, and to plow without a sound of thunder as accompaniment. And if they are the latter? So be it, but we should be more honest about the realities of the Gloranthan spiritual landscape, that rain and plowing are kept captive by Orlanth, and all access to them requires complying with his extortion. 

[M Helsdon]

7 minutes ago, Eff said:

And yet one of the most densely-populated areas of Genertela has essentially no worship of Orlanth. You would think that if Orlanth were actually and practically "the moving Air", they would all be dead or undead, asphyxiated in a cloud of unbreathable poison. The actual iconography and descriptions and language for Orlanth in practice associates him with storms very specifically, and storms of particular types, even. 

Orlanth is embodied in the great air pattern, the huge storm, circulating around Brastalos, moving as she moves around the center of the Homeward Ocean - the winds are weakest closest to her, growing in strength with distance. Thus he circulates the air and the clouds riding on his wind, everywhere, but his influence is greatest where he has the greatest influence. Dara Happa has relatively little rain in summer, agriculture there being reliant upon irrigation.

14 minutes ago, Eff said:

So we come back to the question of whether Heler is Orlanth's boon companion/eromenos, and Barntar his son, or whether they are yoked and chained, manacled and hobbled, as his slaves or perhaps even fully depersonalized property. And if they are the former, then it should be possible to invoke them independently of Orlanth, to have rain without gales and lightning and hail, as happens conspicuously in the real world all the time, and to plow without a sound of thunder as accompaniment. And if they are the latter? So be it, but we should be more honest about the realities of the Gloranthan spiritual landscape, that rain and plowing are kept captive by Orlanth, and all access to them requires complying with his extortion. 

Given that Orlanth embodies freedom (though some of his worshipers hold thralls) rather than slaves, Heler and Barntar are his companions and comrades.

[Eff]

7 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Orlanth is embodied in the great air pattern, the huge storm, circulating around Brastalos, moving as she moves around the center of the Homeward Ocean - the winds are weakest closest to her, growing in strength with distance. Thus he circulates the air and the clouds riding on his wind, everywhere, but his influence is greatest where he has the greatest influence. Dara Happa has relatively little rain in summer, agriculture there being reliant upon irrigation.

Given that Orlanth embodies freedom (though some of his worshipers hold thralls) rather than slaves, Heler and Barntar are his companions and comrades.

That's not a response to what I said. I didn't say anything about rain, I talked about the breathability of the air. And saying "Orlanth embodies freedom" is also not really a good way of reasoning, not least because the conclusion would then seem to be directly contradictory to what you asserted before, that Heler and Barntar cannot be invoked without Orlanth. Which is characteristic of them being slaves, rather than "companions and comrades" (sic), or, rather, companion and son. So are they companion/catamite and son? But also unfree to act without the explicit involvement of Orlanth? How does that work?

[M Helsdon]

8 minutes ago, Eff said:

That's not a response to what I said. I didn't say anything about rain, I talked about the breathability of the air. And saying "Orlanth embodies freedom" is also not really a good way of reasoning, not least because the conclusion would then seem to be directly contradictory to what you asserted before, that Heler and Barntar cannot be invoked without Orlanth. Which is characteristic of them being slaves, rather than "companions and comrades" (sic), or, rather, companion and son. So are they companion/catamite and son? But also unfree to act without the explicit involvement of Orlanth? How does that work?

You seem to be misreading or misunderstanding my comments. 

Edited October 4 by M Helsdon

[Nick Brooke]

When writing the squib article that became the Sewers of Furthest piece in @Simon_Bray’s excellent book, I was delighted to learn that Bad Air can be a massive problem for ancient cities, and proper sanitation is the solution.

[None]

3 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Given that Orlanth embodies freedom (though some of his worshipers hold thralls) rather than slaves, Heler and Barntar are his companions and comrades.

Uh, considering how he is treated I don't think Eurmal would truthfully agree that he is a companion and comrade of Orlanth's. For a god of freedom Orlanth is also very eager to rule and enforce his will, even over others.

Anyway.

3 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Dara Happa has relatively little rain in summer, agriculture there being reliant upon irrigation.

Esrolia has rivers, they should be able to rely on irrigation if they wanted to so even if you absolutely needed Orlanth for rain, (which I doubt there should be lesser air gods that suffice, not to mention Heler who does give Rain, sure its not as effective without clouds but its there). There should easily be possible for Heler worship without an Orlanth association. So still considering the more peaceful nature of Esrolia I feel they ought to consider Orlanth more trouble than he is worth and the sun more preferable over something as unpredictable and capricious as the wind and storm.

47 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

When writing the squib article that became the Sewers of Furthest piece in @Simon_Bray’s excellent book, I was delighted to learn that Bad Air can be a massive problem for ancient cities, and proper sanitation is the solution.

Please tell me the Esrolians understand the value of proper sanitation. The idea of a city the size of Nochet run by people that don't is concerning.

3 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

The Esrolians are a variant Orlanthi culture and share much the same myths, and so know that Orlanth rescued their Earth Goddess who willingly married him.

I never really considered the Esrolians as Orlanthi. Their an Earth Goddess culture not an Storm God culture. Sure their associated with storm god cultures now despite the myth of Orlanth rescuing and marrying Orlanth being an Orlanthi myth that shouldn't matter as much to to them. I see that as some kind of weird after construction comes more from Orlanth's association with Ernalda in the eyes of the Orlanthi than as something that comes from the Esrolians.

To me their ultimately their own thing separate from the Orlanthi.

4 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

The Sun isn't excluded from Esrolian theogony, being approached either directly by Ernalda or via Yelmalio.

Except why settle for a lesser sun that cannot provide warmth and don't have the Life aspect Yelm has? Orlanth on the other hand. all they'd possibly want from him are the winds that brings rain clouds. There must exist a lesser air god or two that can do that and doesn't have Orlanth's obvious drawbacks and then there's also irrigation.

[Eff]

21 minutes ago, None said:

Except why settle for a lesser sun that cannot provide warmth and don't have the Life aspect Yelm has? Orlanth on the other hand. all they'd possibly want from him are the winds that brings rain clouds. There must exist a lesser air god or two that can do that and doesn't have Orlanth's obvious drawbacks and then there's also irrigation.

This is, frankly, not a question that can be answered through the internal logic of Glorantha. We have to step outside of the fiction and note that Yelmalio as a fictional creation evolved in two different directions. One evolution was focused on the Yelmalio mythology itself, and that evolution emphasized Yelmalio as an ascetic figure, one who lost his life but got it back by giving up his heat/sexual volition/liveliness, who offers stoicism and endurance to those who reach out to him. This Yelmalio is a sun that's devoid of heat, a light in the sky that can help you starve better. 

The other evolution was focused on Yelmalio as a figure in broader mythological structures, where he serves a function as a "Sun Jr." who can substitute for his daddy and who is closer to humanity than his pop. This evolution eventually produced a few entities that weren't named Yelmalio, most of whom were Sunlike in having heat and flames and life. They could bring life back to the dying, provide food to the hungry, and all that. 

Now, for reasons of fandom drama, this second evolution is subordinated to the first evolution so heavily that the first evolution is retroactively applied onto them, and so the median worship of the Sun in Glorantha as of 2024, apparently, is of an entity that is devoid of fertility/sexuality as represented by heat, and so cannot believably contribute to agriculture and life. Perhaps that's just what the Sun is, unless you're in the northern parts of Glorantha- dead and cold. Summer is only warmer than winter because of, uh, the wind. In Glorantha, there's no wind chill, perhaps.

For actual play purposes under the aegis of "this religious structure should make sense, dammit", the only option is to recognize that you must add and subtract- you must add more to Yelmalio to make him credible as a representation of the Sun, or you must cut away the subordination and separate out the ascetic asexual from the horse boys and the halo of light and so on and put one or more of the other possibilities in play. One detail that helps is that the Esrolian history is totally divorced from the constructed history of Yelmalio within Glorantha, so practically, the sources leave a big open space for you to play in.

I didn't even address lesser air/weather entities, but I have some actual play experience there as well concerning Esrolia specifically. 

Edited October 4 by Eff
Added air jordans.

[M Helsdon]

41 minutes ago, None said:

I never really considered the Esrolians as Orlanthi. Their an Earth Goddess culture not an Storm God culture. Sure their associated with storm god cultures now despite the myth of Orlanth rescuing and marrying Orlanth being an Orlanthi myth that shouldn't matter as much to to them. I see that as some kind of weird after construction comes more from Orlanth's association with Ernalda in the eyes of the Orlanthi than as something that comes from the Esrolians.

You'll find that Esrolia is classified as a subtype of Orlanthi dominated by Ernalda/Esrola cults. See the Guide to Glorantha page 31.

The land of Esrolia, one of the densest population regions in the world, is a land of the Earth Goddess. The grandmothers and queens maintain a dominant place in the political, religious, and social orders. There most of the men follow a wider variety of cults which are accessible as husband figures, including Argan Argar, and a local version of Yelmalio, although Orlanth is still the most favored husband and the major Orlanthi deities are just as important as in other nearby Orlanthi lands. Page 37

If you don't recognize that the Esrolians are Orlanthi you can't grasp their culture. Instead of the Orlanthi 'standard' of Orlanth and Ernalda, the Esrolians are Ernalda and Orlanth.

Edited October 4 by M Helsdon

[M Helsdon]

37 minutes ago, None said:

Except why settle for a lesser sun that cannot provide warmth and don't have the Life aspect Yelm has? Orlanth on the other hand. all they'd possibly want from him are the winds that brings rain clouds. There must exist a lesser air god or two that can do that and doesn't have Orlanth's obvious drawbacks and then there's also irrigation.

Because the Sun is a remote and to Orlanthi, a forbidding deity, to be approached either via Ernalda or Yelmalio in Esrolia.

In Esrolia, Yelmalio is one of Ernalda's husband-protectors, and Jeff has previously noted that Yelmalio and Heler both have a relationship with Esrola as both Sun and Rain are necessary for her fertility. So in Esrolia, Yelmalio is seen through a different cultural lens to that of the cult in Saird or Prax. To be a husband-protector, he obviously has a fertility role.

Ernalda is innately tied with Orlanth in both the mythology and culture. Change that and, as previously noted, there are major implications.

I'm working on an Esrolian setting, about 45K words plus, so far, and Yelmalio features in it, but somewhat different to the cult you find in the north.

Edited October 4 by M Helsdon

[Eff]

8 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

To be a husband-protector, he obviously has a fertility role.

That's not obvious at all, unless we're defining the purpose of marriage in Glorantha as impregnation, or that one must have functional semen which one ejaculates regularly into a woman in order to protect someone.