Opposed rolls and spirit combat

[Geoff R Evil]

Our players and me as GM are finding spirit combat rules both confusing and frankly boring.

Spirit combat says use the opposed rolls on page 142 of the rule book are confusing. On page 142 it says when both participants succeed the one with the greater roll wins.  Yet on page 144 it’s says a tie happens when both achieve the same type of success type (success, special, crit). So to me this is a direct contradiction.

If you follow the p144 rules it ends up with a result that for highly skilled spirit combatants, both 95%+, means that excepting a fail 5% of the time, the only way to damage the opponent is a special or crit with the other getting a lesser result type.  Which means that fights tend to go no dam, no dam, defeated by a crit or special. Boring.

Even if we use the rule on page 142 the spirit combat rules don’t feel fun or interesting, we tried them in a major mass spirit combat, boring.

So, just wondered if people agree with my rule interpretation, and more interestingly, any better house rules for spirit combat? I was thinking having spirit combat be an atk and parry/dodge skill and fight similarly to normal combat rules.

[Ian Absentia]

52 minutes ago, Geoff R Evil said:

Spirit combat says use the opposed rolls on page 142 of the rule book are confusing. On page 142 it says when both participants succeed the one with the greater roll wins.  Yet on page 144 it’s says a tie happens when both achieve the same type of success type (success, special, crit). So to me this is a direct contradiction.

The resolution of ties in Opposed Rolls has been a bone of contention in the various games in which they appear.  There's often a lot of opponents circling each other with compared outcomes of "No Result".  In RQG, the definition of a tie is specifically "where both participants achieve the same type of success but roll the same number".  So a roll of Special (84) vs Special (83) goes to the one who rolled the 84.  Other games have instituted Marginal Successes or Marginal Failures, but those are other games.

I'm curious what you and your players find boring about them.  At face value, all mechanics are dry - it's how they're interpreted and narrated in-game that brings life to them.  I agree that Opposed Rolls are more abstract than blow-by-blow combat rules (and thus the admonition in bold on p.142: "Opposed rolls are not used to resolve melee combat."), but how is your table narrating the outcomes?  Note that this has been a critique of HQG, praised by some, condemned by others.  I have seen other "spirit combat" rules used in play where, effectively, Hit Points are used and it resembles physical combat, but I've also witnessed the opinion that this is also boring by dragging contests of will out into protracted slogs.

!i!

Edited Thursday at 05:20 PM by Ian Absentia

[Rodney Dangerduck]

1 hour ago, Ian Absentia said:

In RQG, the definition of a tie is specifically "where both participants achieve the same type of success but roll the same number"

Can you cite a reference for this?  I know that many groups house rule that the higher roll wins, but the RAW (p 144 and p 368) say "the situation is
temporarily unresolved".

One of our GMs uses that house rule that, on the same level of success, say, both participants Special, the higher roll wins.  It made spirit combat conclude quickly.  And it was scary when a huge big spirit attacked.  And when the party Shaman got into action, he did well.

I am our current GM and have tried the "official" rules where on the same level of success, nothing happens.  (Except if both Crit, a weird exception, less that 0.25% chance, that has not happened yet).  The combats are long and arguably boring.  However, there are some gameplay benefits to a longer spirit combat

1. Other PCs may come to the aid of their buddy, with iron weapons, casting spells, etc.
2. A party shaman has more time to cast Distraction at a big bad spirit to heroically draw it away
3. If there is also physical combat, things get interesting if they miss their INT roll.
4. The party shaman is in a bit more danger.  Instead of quickly grinding down the spirit with a bunch of normal successes, combat lasts longer and the enemy spirit has more chances to get in a lucky Special or Crit.  (Note that the spirit's Normal Successes will generally "tink" against the Shaman's Spirit Block or similar.

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Geoff R Evil said:

Spirit combat says use the opposed rolls on page 142 of the rule book are confusing.

No need in my mind for House Rules - you should go to the Spirit Combat rules on p.368.

First, that addresses the issue of the Tie (at least in my interpretation of the text) and keeps it moving along. (Others may interpret the final clause as associated with two critical successes. I apply it to the Tied spirit combat.) There's no issue of a higher or lower success roll: both damage the other.

"A tie (where both participants succeed but achieve the same quality of result) means the situation is temporarily unresolved. If both participants rolled a critical success, the result is a tie. Both parties do spirit combat damage to the other."

Second, you get added bonuses for special and critical rolls (including bypassing spirit armor in the latter case). And p.370 has the Spirit Combat Fumble table so some additional impacts on those results.

The next thing I consider with Spirit Combat is what the combatants are trying to achieve. If it is a Ghost, they might not initiate Spirit Combat at all, or do so only if the PC's walk away and it is trying to urgently get their attention. If it's a wraith or passion spirit or Mad Head Ghost, then it'll target possession - but up to you to determine if it has any intelligence to break off if it is losing. 

When I want more variability I'll look to the Spirit Features in the RQ Bestiary. Does it damage or attack HP instead? Can it hurl Spirit Darts? Does it have INT and is it negotiating for something? Is it bound to a particular object such that you simply need to get out of range to escape it?

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

2 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

First, that addresses the issue of the Tie (at least in my interpretation of the text) and keeps it moving along. (Others may interpret the final clause as associated with two critical successes.

I agree that the text is confusing.  But I think "no damage" should be the default on a tie.

3 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

A tie (where both participants succeed but achieve the same quality of result) means the situation is temporarily unresolved. If both participants rolled a critical success, the result is a tie. Both parties do spirit combat damage to the other."

When both sides do damage, there's a fair chance that one of them will be overcome, and combat will therefore be "resolved".  Which is the exact opposite of "unresolved".

 

[jajagappa]

8 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

But I think "no damage" should be the default on a tie.

Personally, I find it works. (It's really not different in that sense to physical combat where both combatants get an attack success.)

Another option would be minimum damage to each other. If you've got any spirit armor up then you'd end up with no damage.

[French Desperate WindChild]

An option could be that the highest « skill » pc (or npc) decides a penalty to all skills then applies the rules

for example if A (95%) and B (90%) fight then A may decide to put a penalty of 30% (an example not a rule) then we have A(65%) and B(60%) so much chance to have one success and one failure

the issue would be then that players know the % (or an idea) of the npc

Another option could be then that the one who attacks first decides of the penalty, then the opponent next turn etc…

some may have a protective tactic (let the time to others to do something ) or offensive tactic (finish quickly the fight because others need you)

Edited Thursday at 07:53 PM by French Desperate WindChild

[Ian Absentia]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

3 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

In RQG, the definition of a tie is specifically "where both participants achieve the same type of success but roll the same number". 

Can you cite a reference for this?  I know that many groups house rule that the higher roll wins, but the RAW (p 144 and p 368) say "the situation is
temporarily unresolved".

I'm going nuts here, because, hand to God, I quoted that bolded statement from p.144.  And now I can't find it.  Mea culpa. 😳

!i!

[radmonger]

I think the Quickstart rules had tie-breaks for opposed rolls, but that was dropped in the published RQ:G.

IMHO. it's a failing of the RQ:G rules that they say physical combat works this way, and spirit combat that way. The distinction should be more this is a tactical combat with multiple participants with meaningful decisions to make, versus that is a dice rolling procedure to decide who won.

 

 

 

[Geoff R Evil]

@jajagappa I am aware of all the other ways spirits can engage in combat, and I do use those features to make life interesting, and yes I try to be descriptive in spirit combats and make it fun, but like I said, high skilled play does not work in any way that feels can be described realistically. And mass spirit combats can drag out to say the least, or very quickly end in PC possession or worse if a mass of spirits pile in on one PC. It just feels to me spirit combat has not been fully play tested in all its guises, because the simplistic opposition rules are just so uninspiring or broken in my opinion.

I am hearing some tweaks to get around some of the issues, whereas I feel a more wholesale change is needed. Needs some play testing though, but was looking for some inspired start points. Like I said something that echoes physical combat is an easy start because it would mean minimal learning for the players and more intuitive understanding, yet it has to be different…sprit combat is different. And as stated spirits can do all sorts of weird stuff to make such combats interesting, but making baseline combat work for more game fun is what I am looking for get to.

[Jens]

12 hours ago, Geoff R Evil said:

On page 142 it says when both participants succeed the one with the greater roll wins.

That's a misreading of RAW- it states "the winner is whoever achieved the better result". Rolling 83 out of an 85 skill is not a "better result" than an 81 out of 85- they are both normal successes, or identical results. Nowhere in RQ:G is a higher die roll more successful- the categories of success are critical, special, normal, failure, and fumble, and all results within a category are treated identically. For more skilled contestants this can lead Spirit Combat to drag on for a very long time, since both will succeed, and unless they both critical neither will do damage. With my players I let them choose if they go all in and both will do damage on a tie, or if they take a more cautious approach where a tie means no damage happens to either combatant.

[Geoff R Evil]

@Jens telling me which of two contradictory rules statements to choose is not answering my question. But then to say you house rule to select either rule based on player preference is making my point for me? It’s fundamentally broken. Especially as such choice by players depends on what skill level they and or their foe have. A process that does not scale across the skill levels and still be fun, is broken.

Edited Friday at 11:31 AM by Geoff R Evil

[jajagappa]

14 hours ago, Geoff R Evil said:

I am aware of all the other ways spirits can engage in combat, and I do use those features to make life interesting, and yes I try to be descriptive in spirit combats and make it fun, but like I said, high skilled play does not work in any way that feels can be described realistically.

Spirit combat is inherently a contest of wills between a disembodied being and a corporeal being. Either one or the other can gain an advantage over the other; or they can't. The living being can try to retreat out of range; the spirit can withdraw. There isn't a lot of nuance there, so I'm curious as to what you might expect or want? 

(In general, I've always found that RQ combat of any type bogs down at the high end, and it's left to the occasional crit or fumble to finally achieve victory. There's more ways to get augments/edges now then in RQ2/3 which can help break deadlocks, but those deadlocks still occur. At that point, maybe it's time to negotiate or mutually withdraw.)

 

[PhilHibbs]

I think the logical "highest roll wins" mechanic was rejected because it broke the "principle" that you want to roll low. I don't think that that is a legitimate objection, it's not like your desire has an effect on the dice, unless the players habve real magic powers, in which case this mechanic actually helps balance the game by messing with your cheating magic.

[Brian Duguid]

This thread looked at probabilities of outcomes:

. With any kind of spirit armour (and Spirit Block is a common Rune spell), it can become a slog. The difference with physical combat is that there are fewer options to break out of that: there is only one "weapon", no breakage of parrying weapons, and no ability just to blast the antagonist with a Thunderbolt.

[Geoff R Evil]

I think @Brian Duguid puts his finger on it and lays the basis for thinking about how to answer to your question @jajagappa.

It’s the lack of options and ways to break the opposed roll cycle, and I would add especially at high skill level. Physical combat has, as he says, many options. In spirit combat you have some defensive spells….and that’s about it. Add to that spirits get the disengage option vs embodied spirits, plus a swathe of other options to affect PCs as per the bestiary and whatever a GM comes up with, and you have an unbalanced boring set of play options for the PCs.

Given, as stated, it’s essentially a battle of wills, a sort of mind vs mind fight, then I see a whole host of ways to think about this. 
Let’s just spit ball a few:

1. PCs can use their intimidate ability in some modified form, perhaps with some runic affiliation tweaks, as a way to drive off a spirit that insists on engaging in combat.

2. Sing roles can be used to beguile a spirit, having the effect of distracting the spirit, so it attacks someone else or just fades away coz it forgets what it was trying to do here….

3. create a spirit dodge skill, but as it’s mind vs mind, maybe it’s slippery mind. Maybe a low skill at start but when you get to those high level opposed skills it adds a new option to avoid being engaged at all or as a way of getting out of combat perhaps

I could go on, my point is, I am sure a whole set of skills used in the physical world can be used by PCs to give them more fun options to deal with spirits.

Lots of detail to think about, loads more play testing to find the power play options and issues. But I would be interested in ideas from others along this theme.

 

 

Edited Friday at 04:30 PM by Geoff R Evil

[jajagappa]

9 minutes ago, Geoff R Evil said:

I could go on, my point is, I am sure a whole set of skills used in the physical world can be used by PCs to give them more fun options to deal with spirits.

Lots of detail to think about, loads more play testing to find the power play options and issues. But I would be interested in ideas from others along this theme.

Yes, all good thoughts. Potentially, for 1 & 2, could simply leverage the Augment rules (there's nothing that limits augments or inspirations from being applied to Spirit Combat). The Communication skills make sense here, though not all would work with spirits without INT. If an Augment failure didn't incur a penalty but just had no effect, that would probably encourage more use in these situations (fumbles are still fumbles). Rune augments could also be useful, particularly if fighting elemental spirits and you had the right bonus (e.g. Fire overcomes Darkness, Water overcomes Fire, etc.).

For 3, there's already Spirit Dance skill, which is effectively Spirit Dodge between two spirits, so just leverage it for spirit combat situations as well. It's likely to be lower than Spirit Combat, but you could apply in two distinct situations: 

1) when a spirit tries to initiate spirit combat, allow the person to attempt Spirit Dance. If they succeed, the spirit did not engage. And they can continue using to try to evade the spirit until out of range.

2) once in spirit combat, allow Spirit Dance as another augment option. 

I'm wondering if you might be able to use either Meditate or Worship here as well? Both are rather underutilized.

I've had PC's use Worship as a form of prayer. In a Spirit Combat, you might use Worship to call upon your god for aid and if successful get a cult spirit to intervene? (Now potentially you should spend your Rune Points to summon instead, so maybe not the best option. But maybe there's some other value the deity can provide?)

As for Meditate, maybe that allows you to try to refute or negate the spirit? It's not usually an in-the-moment skill, but maybe if successful it helps serve as a defense (lowers the attacker's Spirit Combat by -5% or the like) against the spirit combat.

 

[Scotty]

On 9/26/2024 at 5:27 PM, Geoff R Evil said:

So, just wondered if people agree with my rule interpretation, and more interestingly, any better house rules for spirit combat? I was thinking having spirit combat be an atk and parry/dodge skill and fight similarly to normal combat rules.

If you've not seen it, the 3.3 Spirit Combat Results Table lays out all of the results together. As usual GMs may use their own interpretations in their games. The most common I've seen is in a tie, the result is as a critical tie with both sides damaging each other.