Basic roleplaying combat system

[ORtrail]

Not a lot to add to this thread, but I will say that I've ignored the starting percentages for shields for years now. I figure any of us could crouch behind Captain America's shield and survive a lot of attacks, right? Okay, extreme example, but I bumped up the base chance with most shields to 25%-35%, (with a cap for starting characters of 75% or so). So yes, even a complete newbie can strap a shield to their arm and have a chance of deflecting an attack or two.

Agreeing with what has been said above: I think once you understand that the BGB (big gold book) is more of a menu of options, that you build the system YOU want to play out of, it makes more sense.

[Atgxtg]

In a way, what BRP needs is a Basic Role Playing Book! THe gold book is far from what the cover claims. It's more like Compiled Chaosium Role Playing (CCRP).

[Heimdallsgothi]

In a way, what BRP needs is a Basic Role Playing Book! THe gold book is far from what the cover claims. It's more like Compiled Chaosium Role Playing (CCRP).

As a new arrival to the RQ/BRp family of games, this is a large reason why I ended up starting out with Savage worlds over BRP when running my Kingmaker campaign

BRP "sounded" neat, but you need to be already well versed in the game family tree to try and balance it out, that said, i am very likely to switch to RQ6 after the game is over since it was so well done

[Atgxtg]

As a new arrival to the RQ/BRp family of games, this is a large reason why I ended up starting out with Savage worlds over BRP when running my Kingmaker campaign

BRP "sounded" neat, but you need to be already well versed in the game family tree to try and balance it out, that said, i am very likely to switch to RQ6 after the game is over since it was so well done

I see your point. It's something that many of us around here noticed. The BRP Gold book is a great aid to those of us who are already familiar with the system.It combines a lot of stuff under one cover. But it isn't as freindly to new players as the more focused systems it grew out of.

It gets funny at times too, since all us long time fans tend to like some things and ditch others, and we don't love or ditch the same things. There is stuff that I toss that others think is the best part of the system and vice versa. So it isn't really one game system, but a family of systems.

[Gollum]

The BRP Gold book is a great aid to those of us who are already familiar with the system. It combines a lot of stuff under one cover. But it isn't as freindly to new players as the more focused systems it grew out of. [...] So it isn't really one game system, but a family of systems.

I don't really agree with that.

I was not very familiar with the BRP system. I only played with Call of Cthulhu, which is the most rule light version. Then I played a lot with GURPS... But when I came back to the BRP system, I just bought the big golden book and understood it very easily.

Sure, it has a lot of optional rules. But a lot of other role playing system also have a lot of optional rules. GURPS does for instance. And, like for GURPS, it doesn't make the BRP system inconsistent. To the contrary. Despite of all these options (and despite the fact that some of them are uncompatible with others), the BRP system remains very coherent.

It is one game. One customizable game, but still one game. No matter how you use it, the core system remains the same. And the spirit of the game too: a good balance between rules and GM decisions... and, above, all, a clear priority given to the skill levels.

To explain what I mean... If, in GURPS, an unskilled character tries a very easy action, he will become very good at it. The bonuses (which are added), will give him a high final score. With the BRP system, easy actions don't add bonuses. They multiply the skill. So an unskilled character won't ever become very good. He won't ever be able to defeat a very skilled character, even if he does very easy action while the skilled character does normal ones.

GURPS gives the priority to what the characters exaclty does: the player choices. The BRP system gives the priority to what the character is: his abilities.

[frogspawner]

Is there any reason to have a shield?

Not as the rules stand. It's a fault caused by the "Attack & Defense Matrix" being grafted-on. And glaringly, in a book of options, the Matrix is NOT optional.

There used to be. The damage abosrption of weapons has changed a bit with various versions of the rules. In RQ, shields could stop more damage than most other weapons. If you want a quick and easy houserule, shields should be easier to defend with, so you could make shield parries EASY (2xskill).

Yes. And that's a pretty good quick-fix.

BTW they way RQ3 handed shields was by giving them a higher Armor rating than most other weapons. When a weapon parried if the damage was greater than the weapon's Armor rating, the excess got through the parry, and the weapon lost a point of armor. A typical shield had 12 AP, a decent sword about 10, and most other weapons less.

Exactly. An alternative fix for the problem would be re-introducing that traditional RuneQuest (1,2&3) way of doing it. That's my preference.

The MRQ/Legend/RQ6 fix ("Combat Styles" - having combined weapon-AND-shield skill, for example) doesn't appeal to me.

In a way, what BRP needs is a Basic Role Playing Book! THe gold book is far from what the cover claims. It's more like Compiled Chaosium Role Playing (CCRP).

Indeed. But really, with no official alternative to that flawed Matrix, anything I came up with in that line could not be "official BRP", just a homebrew. Kind of de-motivating.

[NickMiddleton]

As a new arrival to the RQ/BRp family of games, this is a large reason why I ended up starting out with Savage worlds over BRP when running my Kingmaker campaign

BRP "sounded" neat, but you need to be already well versed in the game family tree to try and balance it out, that said, i am very likely to switch to RQ6 after the game is over since it was so well done

RQ6 is a fine game.

I can also heartily recommend the upcoming Magic World, which is a specific, well integrated (and explained) subset of the BGB fine tuned for fantasy. It takes the Elric! rules, removes the Moorcock IP, polishes up a variety of small details, smooths out some inconsistencies and

adds in some well judged tweaks and refinements to produce a very effective, easy to grasp and run Fantasy BRP system. There are a number of planned support items for it in the pipeline as well.

Cheers,

Nick

(Yes, I've helped out a bit on MW - but it's Ben Monroe / Zomben's project, building on the original excellent Elric! incarnation of BRP)

Edited August 31, 2012 by NickMiddleton
typos

[Gollum]

Yes. And that's a pretty good quick-fix.

I fully do agree.

Another rule I read in “Basic” (the french version of the BRP system published by the magazine “Casus Belli”) is giving the shield a parry bonus: +10% for the smallest shields and +20% for bigger ones. The shield then gives exactly the same penalty to the attack (-10% or -20%). The reason of this penalty is that the shield is often in the way of your weapon when you want to strike your foe…

Since “Basic” limits the maximum bonus to +20% (and not +30%, unlike BRP) we could change this rule to:

– Small shield: +10/-10%

– Medium shield: +20/-20%

– Large shield: +30/-30%

And for those who think that exactly the same penalty to the attack is not fair, this penalty could be divided by two…

– Small shield: +10/-5%

– Medium shield: +20/-10%

– Large shield: +30/-15%

… Or even dropped.

[Heimdallsgothi]

RQ6 is a fine game.

I can also heartily recommend the upcoming Magic World, which is a specific, well integrated (and explained) subset of the BGB fine tuned for fantasy. It takes the Elric! rules, removes the Moorcock IP

I've never really been interested in the Elric books, I never saw what people found so interesting about them, I may look at it first down the line, if my FLGS carries it, but in this case, a polished turd, is still a turd

[axe-elf]

I fully do agree.

Another rule I read in “Basic” (the french version of the BRP system published by the magazine “Casus Belli”) is giving the shield a parry bonus: +10% for the smallest shields and +20% for bigger ones. The shield then gives exactly the same penalty to the attack (-10% or -20%). The reason of this penalty is that the shield is often in the way of your weapon when you want to strike your foe…

Since “Basic” limits the maximum bonus to +20% (and not +30%, unlike BRP) we could change this rule to:

– Small shield: +10/-10%

– Medium shield: +20/-20%

– Large shield: +30/-30%

And for those who think that exactly the same penalty to the attack is not fair, this penalty could be divided by two…

– Small shield: +10/-5%

– Medium shield: +20/-10%

– Large shield: +30/-15%

… Or even dropped.

Yes, that is probably better, since EASY parry for shields very fast makes it to 100%, making battles with shields very lengthy.

I´d give all shields +15% to parry. That will give buclers a base chance of 20% and most other shields 30% to parry. Detailed enough for me.

The rules for Cover can eventually be used with hoplite shields, not allowing parry when it is used as cover.

[Atgxtg]

I've never really been interested in the Elric books, I never saw what people found so interesting about them, I may look at it first down the line, if my FLGS carries it, but in this case, a polished turd, is still a turd

It has some merits.

The original Elric stories were very good.

The character and setting were groundbreaking back when first started. From an RPG perspective, we probably all owe a lot to Moorcock. Until Elric, the heroes in heroic fantasy were the big brawny types, and a few sneak thieves. Elric! got rid of the "glass "ceiling" that wizards and other characters had in the genre. Now they could be the main character.

The rule system, in Stormbringer 1 was a modfied version of RuneQuest, and despite some flaws with character generation and the magic system, it was, mechaically, the next step in the evolution to RQ3. It is pretty much RQ2.5 rules. Ekric! addressed many of the flaws with the Stormbringer system, and streamlined the game, but it also made it more like CoC and less like RQ.

For what it's worth, my opinion of CoC isn't any better that your Opinion of Elric! Probably worse. IMO the most pointless RPG ever created.

[axe-elf]

This has surely been discussed before, but anyway.

p. 203

In settings where shields are also used, a successful

shield parry may not be enough to stop a blow, and

damage from the attack can potentially pass through

the armor value of the shield and to the character. In

these cases, armor values for both shield and armor are

subtracted before the character takes damage.

Contradicting rule on p.191 (in my printed version) stating that parries with weapon or shield deflects all damage.

Embarrassing..................

[Toadmaster]

I don't really agree with that.

I was not very familiar with the BRP system. I only played with Call of Cthulhu, which is the most rule light version. Then I played a lot with GURPS... But when I came back to the BRP system, I just bought the big golden book and understood it very easily.

snip

I think in your case GURPS prepared you for BRP. The complaint that BRP offers too many options is not unique to BRP, it is common among most generic rule systems HERO, GURPS etc.

I think someone coming from another generic system will generally take all the options in stride, as it is a common feature of generic games. I think it is largely those coming from single genre rule systems that get overwhelmed.

[Toadmaster]

As a new arrival to the RQ/BRp family of games, this is a large reason why I ended up starting out with Savage worlds over BRP when running my Kingmaker campaign

BRP "sounded" neat, but you need to be already well versed in the game family tree to try and balance it out, that said, i am very likely to switch to RQ6 after the game is over since it was so well done

I'm quite impressed with RQ6 so far even though I've only made it about 1/4 of the way through the book so far.

[ORtrail]

For what it's worth, my opinion of CoC isn't any better that your Opinion of Elric! Probably worse. IMO the most pointless RPG ever created.

Shut your whore mouth!

Interesting. CoC was one of the first non fantasy RPGs I played, and quite a different animal. Gone were the days of being the big bad hero, you were a rather fragile human and more often than not things would end badly. Insanity instead of death? A near modern setting? The easiest version of the Chaosium BRP system to learn and use? CoC really stood out back in the day. I can see why some would not enjoy it though.

Edited August 31, 2012 by ORtrail

[Atgxtg]

Shut your whore mouth!

Okay. The goal of COC is supposed to be to stop the Mythos horros from detroying the world as we know it (not to mention mankind), yet the human PCs are virtually helpless against Mythos beings. The vast majority can't be defeated physically, and any other means of defeating them requires the use of magic to summon and compel other Mythos creatures. THat is assuming the PCs don't go permantely off the deep end learning how to do so, or that the new thing they summon up doesn't cause more trouble than the thing they are trying to get rid of. All with no help from the rest of mankind, who would lock the PCs up if they told them what was really going on. If, by some stroke of good fortune the PCs succeed, they get to do it all over again next session.

It's like playing catch with the trigger for an ICBM, week after week. The outcome is a given. The only question is when. There really isn't much that the PCs can do to prevent the inevitable.

[Thalaba]

Okay. The goal of COC is supposed to be to stop the Mythos horros from detroying the world as we know it (not to mention mankind)

LOL. I'm pretty sure that's not the goal of CoC! Pulp Cthulhu, maybe...

[Toadmaster]

Okay. The goal of COC is supposed to be to stop the Mythos horros from detroying the world as we know it (not to mention mankind), yet the human PCs are virtually helpless against Mythos beings. The vast majority can't be defeated physically, and any other means of defeating them requires the use of magic to summon and compel other Mythos creatures. THat is assuming the PCs don't go permantely off the deep end learning how to do so, or that the new thing they summon up doesn't cause more trouble than the thing they are trying to get rid of. All with no help from the rest of mankind, who would lock the PCs up if they told them what was really going on. If, by some stroke of good fortune the PCs succeed, they get to do it all over again next session.

It's like playing catch with the trigger for an ICBM, week after week. The outcome is a given. The only question is when. There really isn't much that the PCs can do to prevent the inevitable.

That is really the worst case game, but is the typical image from outside.

At least in my experience a CoC campaign more closely follows the mold of X files or Supernatural with stand alone "episodes" in between the deeper tied together conspiracy. The PCs usually meet with lower level horrors more easily dealt with by human means, conventional supernatural beings (vampires, ghosts, mad scientists etc) or minor mythos critters, ghouls, deep ones, cultists etc only occasionally encountering the mind blasting things man was not meant to know.

The original source material is less bleak than what many see to believe the game covers.

[Atgxtg]

That is really the worst case game, but is the typical image from outside.

At least in my experience a CoC campaign more closely follows the mold of X files or Supernatural with stand alone "episodes" in between the deeper tied together conspiracy. The PCs usually meet with lower level horrors more easily dealt with by human means, conventional supernatural beings (vampires, ghosts, mad scientists etc) or minor mythos critters, ghouls, deep ones, cultists etc only occasionally encountering the mind blasting things man was not meant to know.

A good COC campaign has to follow that mold. It's the only one that won't eat the PCs! Seriouslt, Vampires, mad scientists, and even the occasional Deep Ones (iDeep Sixes?), are all beatable menaces.

The original source material is less bleak than what many see to believe the game covers.

LOL! The original source material is, if anything, bleaker. Lovecraft doesn't give us any hope. But his progtagonist got better support form the NPCs. Even animals know enough to band up against Mythos stuff. I don't buy the SAN rules either. Sure, some people might freak out when they see a dead body, but that is more because they already have SAN problems than the cause of the SAN problems. Most of the SAN stuff stemmed from H>P.'s personal problems. They guy was a recluse, and racist. Ryleth was his inability to handle NYC.

Hell, he makes the Elric stories seem upbeat!

But that's my take on CoC. I think it is a lousy setting, a pointless game, did a butcher job on the rules to what was the greatest RPG out at the time, and helped turn Chaosium from a frontrunner to a has been.

Edited September 1, 2012 by Atgxtg

[ORtrail]

If by "helped turn Chaosium from a frontrunner to a has been" you meant, "the license that carried the company for more than two decades" then yeah, I TOTALLY agree.

[Atgxtg]

If by "helped turn Chaosium from a frontrunner to a has been" you meant, "the license that carried the company for more than two decades" then yeah, I TOTALLY agree.

Carried it into what? Obscurity?

Before CoC Chaosium was a leader in the RPG field and one of the top companies in the field. In the past two decades it's been a minor company that produces a niche of a niche in a niche hobby. Virtually all the original staff have left, the company has split off, and it doesn't even own most of the games that it produced when it was a big player. It's such a successful company that the fanbase was uncertain if BRP would even make it to print. CoC has gotten support to the determent of every other RPG line. Look at the support their other lines have gotten since CoC infected the company. Stormbringer was likely to get a new edition before a new supplement. Chaosium is like the Curtis Mathes of RPG companies. You had to be around in the 80s to know what people are talking about. They haven't done anything innovative since, what Pendragon?

And with MRQ and RQ6 Chasoium isn't even the leader in producing BRP product. Certainly not in getting hardcopy out. You pretty much have to be a fan of Chaosium to begin with to find their stuff. The chances of finding a copy of a Chaosium BRP book in a store is only slightly lower than the fumble chance at 200%.

Edited September 1, 2012 by Atgxtg

[Toadmaster]

A good COC campaign has to follow that mold. It's the only one that won't eat the PCs! Seriouslt, Vampires, mad scientists, and even the occasional Deep Ones (iDeep Sixes?), are all beatable menaces.

LOL! The original source material is, if anything, bleaker. Lovecraft doesn't give us any hope. But his progtagonist got better support form the NPCs. Even animals know enough to band up against Mythos stuff. I don't buy the SAN rules either. Sure, some people might freak out when they see a dead body, but that is more because they already have SAN problems than the cause of the SAN problems. Most of the SAN stuff stemmed from H>P.'s personal problems. They guy was a recluse, and racist. Ryleth was his inability to handle NYC.

Hell, he makes the Elric stories seem upbeat!

But that's my take on CoC. I think it is a lousy setting, a pointless game, did a butcher job on the rules to what was the greatest RPG out at the time, and helped turn Chaosium from a frontrunner to a has been.

I suspect you have not read a large number of Mythos tales. Many of the related authors, Howard in particular wrote in a more upbeat style, and even HPL has numerous stories where the protagonist not only survives but does so largely intact. There is even a bit of humor in some of his stories and a fair bit of whimsy in the case of his dreamlands stories.

As far as CoC dragging Chaosium into the abyss, I think talking with the owners you will find them quite candidly admitting that at times the company has not been well managed. The companies problems do not stem from CoC, they withdrew to basically supporting a single game line due to their other problems, so CoC didn't drag them down, it was the only thing they had to keep them going all these years.

[Gollum]

Carried it into what? Obscurity?

Before CoC Chaosium was a leader in the RPG field and one of the top companies in the field. In the past two decades it's been a minor company that produces a niche of a niche in a niche hobby. […] You pretty much have to be a fan of Chaosium to begin with to find their stuff. The chances of finding a copy of a Chaosium BRP book in a store is only slightly lower than the fumble chance at 200%.

Your vision of Chaosium is as desperate as Call of Cthulhu itself! ;-)

First, the problem you noticed about finding a copy of Chaosium BRP book in a store is not at all due to Call of Cthulhu. It is the problem of role playing games in general, and especially of universal role playing games.

Yes, sorry to say that, but we belong to the past. Nowadays, pen and paper role playing games are just considered as an old ancestor of computer role playing games and MMORPG… Just ask to hundred young adults what is a role playing game, and you will inevitably notice it. Chaosium are producing a niche because pen and paper role playing games are a niche…

And with universal role playing games, it is even worse. What you describe here is what have been said many times on Steve Jackson Games’ GURPS forum. Despite of the extraordinary fourth edition, and very appealing licenses like Discworld or Hellboys, GURPS doesn’t sell well. Steve Jackson Games are still on the market because they send Munchkin, which is their best selling game. GURPS is not. Neither is the Hero System, Savage or the others…

Second, you can thing that Call of Cthulhu is a bad game, but it is the first Chaosium’s game which has been translated in French (and one of the firsts american role playing games ever translated in French). It comes just after D&D in terms of popularity. Opinion polls show it every year.

Yes, Call of Cthulhu is loved in France! So much loved that the french sixth edition came out before the american sixth edition, with dozens of supplements just for it… The company who published it (Sans Detour) is one of the biggest now. It sells a lot of big books with hard cover and amazing illustrations. It even published a collector edition of “Les masques de Nyarlathotep” Masks of Nyarlathotep), with an old-fashioned leather bag to pull it in!

Les Masques de Nyarlathotep - Edition Collector | Sans-Détour éditions

It costs 159 € (about $200 today) and sells well. Despite of the decline of tabletop role playing games...

So, as you can see, Call of Cthulhu is not at all pointless. You may not like it. You may even hate it. But it is a great game. His extraordinary success in France during decades proves it.

Edited September 1, 2012 by Gollum

[Gollum]

Oh... I just noticed it after posting the previous message... "Les masques de Nyarlathotep" sold so well that it is now out of stock!

Edited September 1, 2012 by Gollum

[Gollum]

Okay. The goal of COC is supposed to be to stop the Mythos horros from detroying the world as we know it (not to mention mankind), yet the human PCs are virtually helpless against Mythos beings. The vast majority can't be defeated physically, and any other means of defeating them requires the use of magic to summon and compel other Mythos creatures. THat is assuming the PCs don't go permantely off the deep end learning how to do so, or that the new thing they summon up doesn't cause more trouble than the thing they are trying to get rid of. All with no help from the rest of mankind, who would lock the PCs up if they told them what was really going on. If, by some stroke of good fortune the PCs succeed, they get to do it all over again next session.

It's like playing catch with the trigger for an ICBM, week after week. The outcome is a given. The only question is when. There really isn't much that the PCs can do to prevent the inevitable.

This is quite right…

But precisely, it is a specific genre. Desperate action in a desperate and terrifying world…

Horror is rarely fun and optimistic. Just look at other horror styles… Zombies, like in Walking Dead series? Heroes don’t either have a great hope of surviving… Aliens series? No matter what do the heroes, they always come back… The Invaders? David Vincent will certainly dye…

And there are so much horror movies where the heroes’ victory was just marginal… Just before the end credits, something shows that it will start again… Over and over again…

Yes, finally, horror genre is always desperate. Sadly and cruelly desperate. Because it symbolizes our death. No hope. Whatever we do, we all will dye.

Maybe you just don’t like horror genre.

Edited September 1, 2012 by Gollum