Movement

[Trifletraxor]

How does the Move rate rules in BRA ZERO works? Is it just a number like in RQ3, or is it a speed? Could someone give me some values and how it works? I've had a new idea for a houserule for move, but I'm not sure if it's needed.

SGL.

[Atgxtg]

How does the Move rate rules in BRA ZERO works? Is it just a number like in RQ3, or is it a speed? Could someone give me some values and how it works? I've had a new idea for a houserule for move, but I'm not sure if it's needed.

SGL.

You get a MOV score. It is similar to RQ2. Humans are MOV 10, and can move at 30m per turn or sprint at up to 50m per turn. Horses have Move 12.

Vehicle MOV is a little different. It's abstract, but seems pretty close to kph, at least for everthing except ships. You can but you can go a little faster if you are pushing for top speed instead of combat speed. Some sample speeds:

Modern sportscar: 200

Motorcycle: 166

Vintage tank: 42

Modern tank: 83

Jet: 1084

[Trifletraxor]

You get a MOV score. It is similar to RQ2. Humans are MOV 10, and can move at 30m per turn or sprint at up to 50m per turn. Horses have Move 12.

So, is there a rule that you can move up to MOV x3 per MR, and up to MOV x5 sprinting? Would horses horses be at 36m and 60m? :confused:

Does the MOV score means anything? Is it some sort of speed score, or is there some rule to convert it to one?

SGL.

[Trifletraxor]

What about just using average speed for walking/running/sprinting for the different species?

For humans using MOV = (DEX+SIZ)/5 seem to work well.

Average walking speed = MOV km/h, running = 3xMOV km/h (sprinting 4xMOV km/h).

Distance covered by running one MR (with gear) = 10 x MOV meters.

Distance covered moving during combat as an action (is it an action by the way, moving during combat?) = 2 x MOV meters.

For animals, move could be given walking/running/sprinting, using average km/h numbers.

Vehicles would only have cruising speed/max speed I guess?

Not really relevant for BRP as I whole I know, but I like to tweak!

SGL.

[Atgxtg]

So, is there a rule that you can move up to MOV x3 per MR, and up to MOV x5 sprinting? Would horses horses be at 36m and 60m? :confused:

Does the MOV score means anything? Is it some sort of speed score, or is there some rule to convert it to one?

SGL.

Not really. The MOV number appears to be abstract. If it were a direct relationship the horse would have more like a 15 than a 12. Of course it could be that Horses might be able to sprint at greater that MOV x5 and than x5 might be a canter and that the could gallop at 75m or so.

The book is more RQ2ish in terms of MOV.

[Atgxtg]

What about just using average speed for walking/running/sprinting for the different species?

For humans using MOV = (DEX+SIZ)/5 seem to work well.

Average walking speed = MOV km/h, running = 3xMOV km/h (sprinting 4xMOV km/h).

Distance covered by running one MR (with gear) = 10 x MOV meters.

Distance covered moving during combat as an action (is it an action by the way, moving during combat?) = 2 x MOV meters.

For animals, move could be given walking/running/sprinting, using average km/h numbers.

Vehicles would only have cruising speed/max speed I guess?

Not really relevant for BRP as I whole I know, but I like to tweak!

SGL.

I'm not big on fomulatic speed because it doesn't really work.

On the other hand rating creatures by an advange speed and giving a boos for a running skill would appeal to me.

As for vehicles, that is pretty close to the way the work now, and is exactly what I did with that vehicle plug in that I sent out to some people.

[Chaot]

For humans using MOV = (DEX+SIZ)/5 seem to work well.

I use MOV = (DEX+SIZ)/2. It was mentioned on this board that SIZ isn't a great way to indicate movement because you get the really fast fat guy. I still think it's a simple and effective solution.

I've also played around with having MOV be affected by the character's skill by multiplying the Stat by the Skill. Say you've got a character with a MOV of 11 and Climb 56% and Run 106%. The character would climb at a speed of MOV 7 and run at MOV 12.

Problems with this approach are:

1. It's more work than people probably want to put in to a Stat that, in my experience, doesn't get that much use.

2. You have to make the lower ends of MOV more granular. I don't have BRP0 on me right now, so I'm looking at Stormbringer5. A horse there has an average SIZ 26, Dex 11, placing it at MOV 19. A Run 60% would put the horse at MOV 12.

The approach works pretty well but could be seen as breaking down at extremes. Using frequent MOV:MOV contests and puting in fatigue or stamina rules helps even it out.

[threedeesix]

I use MOV = (DEX+SIZ)/2. It was mentioned on this board that SIZ isn't a great way to indicate movement because you get the really fast fat guy. I still think it's a simple and effective solution.

In the new version of BRP, SIZ is more dependent on height than weight. Look at SIZ 13 for example, an average human. Height only varies a couple inches, but weight about a hundred pounds. (I'm at work and don't have the book with me). So I agree that the above formula could work for me.

Rodney Leary

[Trifletraxor]

I'm not big on fomulatic speed because it doesn't really work.

Actually, I found the average human walking speed first - 5 km/h, then made to formula to get some variations to it. So the average of the calculation is a MOV of 5. Running at x3 this speed and Sprint at x4 seems to fit as well. Even the extremes (the range for humans are 2-7, though 4-6 are the numbers to be likely in use) aren't that unlikely.

For animals, I would use no formula, just give the average running speed.

I use MOV = (DEX+SIZ)/2. It was mentioned on this board that SIZ isn't a great way to indicate movement because you get the really fast fat guy. I still think it's a simple and effective solution.

In the new version of BRP, SIZ is more dependent on height than weight. Look at SIZ 13 for example, an average human. Height only varies a couple inches, but weight about a hundred pounds. (I'm at work and don't have the book with me). So I agree that the above formula could work for me.

That's a good move, which have been a pretty common houserule before too I think. (SIZ being dependent on height I mean)

SGL.

[Atgxtg]

Actually, I found the average human walking speed first - 5 km/h, then made to formula to get some variations to it. So the average of the calculation is a MOV of 5. Running at x3 this speed and Sprint at x4 seems to fit as well. Even the extremes (the range for humans are 2-7, though 4-6 are the numbers to be likely in use) aren't that unlikely.

Where did you get you data? People can run quite a bit faster than what you got there. Some people have been clocked at 47kph, and 5km/hr seems a bit low for walking pace.

Admittedly 47kph running would be a sprint rate, and that would work out to about 256m/MR.

Plus I think the formula won't hold up for non-humans very well. Elves will get slighted, trolls will get faster, and giants will become speed demons.

[Trifletraxor]

Where did you get you data?

As always, by Googling! If it's online, it gotta be true!

People can run quite a bit faster than what you got there. Some people have been clocked at 47kph, and

Michael Johnson is the record holder with 10.352 m/s (=37,27 km/h).

This is sprinting, by the world fastest runner alive today human. 20 km/h for an average chump with gear seems like an okay approximation - 12 mph came up as the average human running speed in a lot of what I read (which is about 19.2 km/h, so the estimation with gear is actually a bit excessive).

5km/hr seems a bit low for walking pace.

Walking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - wikipedia never lies!

Admittedly 47kph running would be a sprint rate, and that would work out to about 256m/MR.

Speedy Gonzales!

Plus I think the formula won't hold up for non-humans very well. Elves will get slighted, trolls will get faster, and giants will become speed demons.

The formula is for humans only. Other PC races should have their own (using the averages for NPCs though, to keep it simple overall).

SGL.

[Atgxtg]

Michael Johnson is the record holder with 10.352 m/s (=37,27 km/h).

This is sprinting, by the world fastest runner alive today human. 20 km/h for an average chump with gear seems like an okay approximation - 12 mph came up as the average human running speed in a lot of what I read (which is about 19.2 km/h, so the estimation with gear is actually a bit excessive).

That was over 200m. People have run much faster over shorter distances.

Speedy Gonzales!

"The fastest recorded instantaneous velocity achieved by a human was supposedly by Donovan Bailey, who set the World Record in the 100 m (9.84 s). He was clocked at 12.1 m/s, although this figure is perhaps a bit rough (recorded by a radar gun). Accurate data was taken at the 1997 World Championships in Athens, where the top speeds of both Maurice Greene and Bailey were recorded at 11.87 m/s (althogh neither set records in the race -- Greene ran 9.86 s to Bailey's 9.91 s). Bailey was also clocked at 11.91 m/s in the 4 x 100 m relay final at the same championship."

"I have run some simulations which suggest that Michael Johnson probably hit a maximum velocity of 11.6 m/s in his 19.32 s world record race, but was able to sustain speeds in excess of 10.0 m/s for the duration of the race (something no other 200 m runner has ever accomplished, in theory)."

Quiites from:

Speed of the Fastest Human, Running

So unless PCs are going to be running a long distance, they can hit higher speeds.

The formula is for humans only. Other PC races should have their own (using the averages for NPCs though, to keep it simple overall).

SGL.

Wouldn't be simpler to just use a running skill. We don't use a formula for jumping or other physical activities?

[Trifletraxor]

That was over 200m. People have run much faster over shorter distances.

World records:

200m - Michael Johnson - 19,32s - 10,35 m/s

100m - Asafa Powell - 9,74s - 10,27 m/s

60m - Maurice Greene - 6,39s - 9,39 m/s

So, no they don't. Acceleration time makes the speed go down the shorter the distance is, at least below 100m. The numbers you have is the max speed during the sprint probably.

So unless PCs are going to be running a long distance, they can hit higher speeds.

Acceleration slows them down, gear slows them down, not being the worlds best runners also slows them down. Normal humans don't hold that speed.

With the rules I outlined above, a normal chum could sprint at 20 km/h (= 5,56 m/s), a big fast one at 28 km/h (7,78 m/s). With successful run skill, it could be increase by 1 or 2 km/h maybe, depending on how you define the skills. Those numbers fit pretty well I think.

Wouldn't be simpler to just use a running skill. We don't use a formula for jumping or other physical activities?

It would be simpler, but not better I think. It would work somewhat like MRQ's the brute force skill (STR 3 guy wins arm-wrestling contest over STR 18 guy because of better brute force skill) if a DEX 18, SIZ 18 guy is outrun by a DEX 3, SIZ 8 guy because of a running skill. The running skill is nice, could up the speed a bit maybe, but still I like stats to add to it too. I've always used (DEX+SIZ)/8 for human move rate in RQ3, and like the variation.

SGL.

[Atgxtg]

World records:

200m - Michael Johnson - 19,32s - 10,35 m/s

100m - Asafa Powell - 9,74s - 10,27 m/s

60m - Maurice Greene - 6,39s - 9,39 m/s

So, no they don't. Acceleration time makes the speed go down the shorter the distance is, at least below 100m. The numbers you have is the max speed during the sprint probably.

Which is the kind of movement characters will be doing when they move flat out. More like, can they get behind that rock before the archers shoot than can they get 200m.

And the three and four minute miles require speeds of 32kph and 24kph to be possible over long distances.

Acceleration slows them down, gear slows them down, not being the worlds best runners also slows them down. Normal humans don't hold that speed.

With the rules I outlined above, a normal chum could sprint at 20 km/h (= 5,56 m/s), a big fast one at 28 km/h (7,78 m/s). With successful run skill, it could be increase by 1 or 2 km/h maybe, depending on how you define the skills. Those numbers fit pretty well I think.

It would be simpler, but not better I think. It would work somewhat like MRQ's the brute force skill (STR 3 guy wins arm-wrestling contest over STR 18 guy because of better brute force skill) if a DEX 18, SIZ 18 guy is outrun by a DEX 3, SIZ 8 guy because of a running skill. The running skill is nice, could up the speed a bit maybe, but still I like stats to add to it too. I've always used (DEX+SIZ)/8 for human move rate in RQ3, and like the variation.

[Trifletraxor]

Which is the kind of movement characters will be doing when they move flat out. More like, can they get behind that rock before the archers shoot than can they get 200m.

If you take a look at the numbers again, the speed go down when the distance go down. So when Michael Johnson is running for the stone 20m away, while you try to put an arrow in his bakc, his average speed will be much lower during his 200m world record.

And the three and four minute miles require speeds of 32kph and 24kph to be possible over long distances.

There is some info on human speed and what causes it. Turn out it is really a factor of how high you can jump. Everyone moves their legs at the same same, but those who can get higher off the ground can take longer strides with their steps, and so move father in a give amount of time. See:

A tall person generally have a longer stride than a small one, hence SIZ. DEX have always been the "coordination and speed" attribute, so adding it into the equation will also be appropriate I think.

Rather than using a formula to determine speed. Why not give a base speed and have the abilities modify the speed? That way the same formula could be applied to all creatures. You would just need to swap out the base rate.

For isntace if you wanted to have DEX, SIZ or STR give a +/-1 per 4 points away from 10, and set the base range for humans to 4m/s or so you could get about the same results, and the apply the same modifier for horses, elves, cheetahs, and elephants, just by changing the base move rate.

I see no need to apply a formula to all creatures. It would anyhow need to be different formulas to each creatures as I doubt one would fit all. For NPCs, animals and monsters I'd just use average speed.

SGL.

[Atgxtg]

I see no need to apply a formula to all creatures. It would anyhow need to be different formulas to each creatures as I doubt one would fit all. For NPCs, animals and monsters I'd just use average speed.

SGL.

I do. Otherwise you will end up with fast huumans zipping past evens or what not.

The coll thing about using a base speed plus modifiers is that the formula could work for every creature just by change different creature base speeds. THat would allow for faster racing horses.

For instance if we gave a +1 per 4 points of DEX and SIZ (your favored stats) over 10 and a -1 per 4 under 10. We'd have:

[table] DEX or SIZ| Modifer

1|-3

2-5|-2

6-9|-1

10-13|+0

14-17|+1

18-21|+2

22-25|+3

+4|+1[/table]

So if we set the base human speed at 5, we would get results pretty close to your formula, but be able to plug in different base speeds for different creatures.

For instance horses could have a Base Speed of 8 with a +5 for being SIZ 30ish.

Race Horses would have a higher base speed.

We could give dwarves a base speed of 3 or 4 and elves a base speed of 6 or 7.

This way the math would be the same for everybody and the modifier could be applied universally.

We could even factor in STR with SIZE and DEX without upping the numbers much.

[Trifletraxor]

I do. Otherwise you will end up with fast huumans zipping past evens or what not.

Zipping past what?

The coll thing about using a base speed plus modifiers is that the formula could work for every creature just by change different creature base speeds. THat would allow for faster racing horses.

The base speed couldn't be the same as their average speed then though.

For instance if we gave a +1 per 4 points of DEX and SIZ (your favored stats) over 10 and a -1 per 4 under 10. We'd have:

[table] DEX or SIZ| Modifer

1|-3

2-5|-2

6-9|-1

10-13|+0

14-17|+1

18-21|+2

22-25|+3

+4|+1[/table]

So if we set the base human speed at 5, we would get results pretty close to your formula, but be able to plug in different base speeds for different creatures.

For instance horses could have a Base Speed of 8 with a +5 for being SIZ 30ish.

What about the elephant? :cool:

SGL.

[Trifletraxor]

If setting the base MOV as the average speed, then using a tables like yours based on difference from the average stat, that could maybe work. Maybe STR should be worked into the equation too, as it's certainly relevant for fast running. :cool:

SGL.

[Atgxtg]

Zipping past what?

Evens. They are a potential race for the shared fantasy world very similar to elves, with only 3 degrees of separation on the Typo scale of species.

The base speed couldn't be the same as their average speed then though. No but it could be figured from the average speed after accounting for DEX, SIZ and maybe STR.

What about the elephant? :cool:

SGL.

Elephants have been clocked charging at 25mph, or about 12m/sec

So at DEX 10, SIZ 53 they would get +10m for size so would have a base of 2., adjusted 12.

If we factored in for a 45 STR (another +8), base would need to drop to -6 to get the right speeds.

BTW, Here is a table of animal speeds:

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004737.html

[Trifletraxor]

Elephants have been clocked charging at 25mph, or about 12m/sec

Nature says 15 mph.

So at DEX 10, SIZ 53 they would get +10m for size so would have a base of 2., adjusted 12.

Don't like those calculations. I'd rather have a base at the average speed, and then adjust up and down, so the GM don't have to calculate for every single critter unless he/she really wants too.

SGL.

[Atgxtg]

Nature says 15 mph.

You'll find a lot more too. Generally animal speeds are hard to get because there is no way to know if the animal is going flat out, just how far the animal is traveling and to measure the time precisely. Well, except for horses and dogs, which we run in races.

For instance the speed of a sprinting cheetah was usually listed at 60mph when I was a kid, crept up to 65mph when I got out of school, and last time I checked had gotten up to 70mph.

I suspect most animals probably have the same variance in running speed that humans do. We just haven't had the chance to work it out. Plus, when a Elephant, rhino, bear or cheetah is charging, the folks who could be working out speeds are probably trying to stop it with a rifle before it gets to them.

Don't like those calculations. I'd rather have a base at the average speed, and then adjust up and down, so the GM don't have to calculate for every single critter unless he/she really wants too.

SGL.

Well the simple way to do that would be to apply modifiers for DEX, SIZ different from the norm. So if an Elephant has a 53 SIZ then 4 points above that would be 57, so at that SIZ the elephant would get a bonus.

[Chaot]

In the new version of BRP, SIZ is more dependent on height than weight.

Yeah, and I think it's the right way to go. Since SIZ is a weird hybrid of mass and reach (height) it's hard to quantify and apply to a rules system. I've always thought that some of the strength of BRP is that it can be abstracted and can be played fast and loose. When viewing an attribute, I generally take it at it's most optimum use. That's why I included SIZ in the equation.

If one wanted to get crazy with it, they could factor a low CON or STR in to determine whether the SIZ stat describes a large athletic person or not. One could also incorporate body sizes from Stormbringer4. That's too crunchy for my taste.

There's a lot of number crunching in this thread, which is good. I haven't bothered to do that. I'm only concerned is whether something is slower, as fast, or faster than something else. So, using the BRP0 rules and my simple equation (1'm assuming Humans are 3d6 with an average of 11):

Centaur MOV 20

Human MOV 11

Horse MOV 19

Elf MOV 12

Dwarf MOV 9

Halfling MOV 11

Orc MOV12

Giant MOV 72

Wolf MOV 11

Hawk MOV 16

etc.

It works pretty well. One issue is that vehicles and PC/NPC MOV rules won't work the same unless you want to assign stats to vehicles.

[Trifletraxor]

You've got the wolf and the halfling at the same speed with that formula though. I think a wolf should be able to run down a halfling pretty easy.

SGL.

[soltakss]

Personally, I've never liked formulae for working things like this out.

What I prefer to do is to compare with existing movement rates. So, is a leopard as fast as a tiger? You don't need exact matches, after all, because of the integer numbers.

After all, what do you need movement for?

Round by round chases - relative MOV is what's important here.

Turn by turn scenario movement - most people walk at about the same rate and many creatures move at about the same rate.

Day by day movement - all you really need is a table showing how far people can move. Sure, some things can move slightly faster than others but it isn't going to make a huge difference.

So, I wouldn't bother with fancy formulae or give every creature its own indivudually crafted MOV rate. I'd keep it simple.

[Atgxtg]

In the new version of BRP, SIZ is more dependent on height than weight. Look at SIZ 13 for example, an average human. Height only varies a couple inches, but weight about a hundred pounds. (I'm at work and don't have the book with me). So I agree that the above formula could work for me.

Rodney Leary

That isn't because Height is more important. It has to do with something known as the square-cube law. Basically if you take an object (or person) and double it's size (twice the height, width, depth) you cube the mass.

The table looks like the old one from Strombringer, and gives you a range of size for a character, probably so that all SIZ 13 characters don't all weight exactly the same. Based on the SIZ scores for horse, cars, and other things, SIZ doesn't look like it has changed much. Using the vehicle masses and comparing with the RQ3 chart, it looks like the same formula holds, just that some of the values have been rounded off to the nearest number divisible by 5.