Worlds Beyond

[rust]

It seems that I am a bit more old fashioned ...

While I have no problem at all with intelligent starships and thelike, I never

could "get into" any kind of cybertech- or transhumanist-SF.

In my settings I always had to introduce some legal obstacle (above 50 %

cybertech and you are a robot and someone's property ...) or religious rea-

son (He/She/It created us without artificial enhancements ...) to keep such

stuff to a minimum and the game "believable" for me.

But then, I am almost as old as dirt, and being old fashioned probably fits

me well. :cool:

[FunGuyFromYuggoth]

Possibly Perry Rhodan type stuff makes for a better and more easily accessed game, but I'd be interested to see game material derived from (off the top of my head) Peter Hamilton, Cordwainer Smith, Larry Niven, Stephen Baxter.

I'm curious about this too and would welcome it if something came down the pipe. Actually, long ago, I read alot of "1970s" science-fiction that actually addressed many of the issues you described. I think the difference is "space opera" versus "high science fiction" (is there such a thing like "high fantasy" versus "swords and sorcery")? I would agree that accessibility would be an issue. GURPS seems to have gone after these topics somewhat (have they missed any? they were going after everything in the 1990s), but I never much cared for the GURPS or other systems like RIFTS.

[GerallKahla]

Many of the elements Shaira was describing fit into Iain M. Banks' Culture novels...

Drones are sentient, and full citizens. Ships are tremendously intelligent and participate in their own sub-culture as well as interacting with people who merely walk about. Teleportation is so commonplace that, while the Mind who is about to fling you through a wormhole is explaining carefully about the 1 in 1200000 chance you won't emerge on the other side, you lightheartedly click the "I Agree" box on the EULA and permit Microsoft Vista to ruin the computer...

Wait - that's not right.

Regardless, I agree that the interesting bits of science fiction gaming are deep under the chrome and rayguns. Hell, the "chrome and rayguns" paradigm is, what?, 50 years old now?

Let's see what happens when evolution starts taking root in technology and some bored researcher turns it up to 11.

Which 3 aspects of human existance do we want to radically change for the setting?

Intelligence / Cognition?

Reproduction / Longevity?

The Human sensorium?

Human's place in the cosmos?

We'd also have to define Humans' place in the culture found in the new environment.

What specific things do we want to tinker with? How do these changes interact with each other?

Too many things, and you run the risk of a setting that's too alien for most gamers to invest in. Too few things (or not developing them deep enough), and you are in danger of seeming cliche.

This thread's very interesting...

[Conrad]

It seems that I am a bit more old fashioned ...

But then, I am almost as old as dirt, and being old fashioned probably fits

me well. :cool:

I'm in my mid forties and although I love Traveller and Firefly, but I would like to see a supplement for BRP that enables a GM to run space opera that is of a more modern type, like Iain M. Banks or Alastair Reynolds or Charles Stross. There are plenty of Traveller type roleplaying games out there.

Edited January 30, 2009 by Conrad

[Conrad]

Many of the elements Shaira was describing fit into Iain M. Banks' Culture novels...

Regardless, I agree that the interesting bits of science fiction gaming are deep under the chrome and rayguns. Hell, the "chrome and rayguns" paradigm is, what?, 50 years old now?

We'd also have to define Humans' place in the culture found in the new environment.

What specific things do we want to tinker with? How do these changes interact with each other?

Too many things, and you run the risk of a setting that's too alien for most gamers to invest in. Too few things (or not developing them deep enough), and you are in danger of seeming cliche.

This thread's very interesting...

I thought that "chrome and rayguns" went right back beyond even E.E. Smith's Lensman series.

If Iain M. Banks Culture books don't alienate readers then they could be used as some sort of starting point for developing a more modern type of space opera roleplaying for BRP.

As for things seeming cliched, even modern space opera has its recurring ideas, but that doesn't hurt a roleplaying game that needs commonly accepted tropes to keep players from being alienated.

Edited July 15, 2008 by Conrad

[Shaira]

I think one of the issues with SF roleplaying is simply that the future ain't what it used to be. To future proof what you're writing beyond a few years you have to think *very big* indeed, otherwise you end up producing rules or settings that contain retro elements and you have the "alternate history" klooge to enable it (kind of like starting up a Twilight 2000 or Traveller OTU campaign now. My phone outsmarts a Model 2/bis every time...). The only SF writer I can think of from more than 50 years back who isn't riddled with anachronism is Cordwainer Smith, and his marvellousness mostly holds together from placing little emphasis on chrome and more on societal and psychological future development. Dune, although younger, is another prime candidate for still holding water - and for similar reasons.

Does anyone remember Alternity? Tried to be a universal set of SF rules, IMHO ended up spreading itself so thin you had to rewrite most of the rules for your own setting (unless playing space opera). The conclusion I would draw from Alternity is that to get a usable set of SF rules, you more or less have to pin down the setting first (even though you can gloss over the fact by using generic names like "Space Opera", "Traditional SF RPG", "Super-tech", "Transhuman", whatever).

So, when we sit here discussing SF rules for BRP, maybe we're talking about (at least) 3 different things:

i.) Space Opera, Traveller-type stuff.

ii.) Hard SF - 2300, Aliens-type stuff

iii.) "Predict the amazing future and blow your mind" type stuff (a la Ian Banks, Cordwainer Smith, Stephen Baxter, Peter Hamilton, etc).

Here's my take on it:

1.) BRP could easily be expanded to incorporate Hard SF chrome. Vehicle-design rules, laser & particle weapons, space travel & manoeuvre rules, planetary & star-system design, all extrapolated from what we currently know and our current understanding of physics and tech. This would fill out one area of the BRP "hard rules" which would be very usable.

2.) Doing the above would satisfy gearheads and provide a rules basis for the type i and ii SF styles above. For example, you could probably use the "hard SF rules" to fire up your Traveller game in BRP. Or more or less any other Hard Tech or Space Opera game.

3.) The Super-tech approach would need a loose set of assumptions to work from which would need to be predefined. You could use the Culture setting as the basis, or you could roll your own. You would then use that loose setting (sort of like the original OTU setting implied by the 3 LBBs in Classic Traveller - no real detail but heaps of assumptions) to fill out a set of rules - ie how intelligent starships work, what kind of geneering everyone can have, longevity effects, all that good stuff.

So, that looks like 2 projects to me. The first - a Worlds Beyond rewrite involving the best of Ringworld minus the setting (but with the "implied" setting), to cover the Space Opera / Hard Tech games - effectively a "rules expansion" for BRP. The second - a completely new beast Which Has Not Been Written Yet, which might use some of the rules from the SF Rules Expansion (ie planetary design, some vehicles, etc), but would ignore stuff like computer programming skills, in favour of its own background - ie effectively a "setting sourcebook".

How does that sound?

Cheers,

Sarah

[rust]

How does that sound?

It sounds very good, although I have to admit that I would probably buy

only Supplement I, the Worlds Beyond rewrite.

[Conrad]

So, that looks like 2 projects to me. The first - a Worlds Beyond rewrite involving the best of Ringworld minus the setting (but with the "implied" setting), to cover the Space Opera / Hard Tech games - effectively a "rules expansion" for BRP. The second - a completely new beast Which Has Not Been Written Yet, which might use some of the rules from the SF Rules Expansion (ie planetary design, some vehicles, etc), but would ignore stuff like computer programming skills, in favour of its own background - ie effectively a "setting sourcebook".

How does that sound?

Cheers,

Sarah

Could a supplement be large enough to combine the two and make Chaosium some money?

[Conrad]

It sounds very good, although I have to admit that I would probably buy

only Supplement I, the Worlds Beyond rewrite.

I will e mail Dustin to ask if Chaosium has any plans to reissue a revamped version of the game.

Edited July 20, 2008 by Conrad

[Nightshade]

Could a supplement be large enough to combine the two and make Chaosium some money?

I suspect there's a dance of resources that go on here; there are complicating issues with big books, and if it doesn't sell well, you take a bath; with two smaller ones, you're less likely to have both not sell (because someone didn't want to spend money on a big book they weren't going to use half of) and as such you're a little safer.

[Conrad]

I suspect there's a dance of resources that go on here; there are complicating issues with big books, and if it doesn't sell well, you take a bath; with two smaller ones, you're less likely to have both not sell (because someone didn't want to spend money on a big book they weren't going to use half of) and as such you're a little safer.

I like the sound of a book of generic space opera rules ( ship design and combat and world generation) plus a few different backgrounds ( an updated Worlds Beyond plus an updated Future World possibly?). The generic rules would be essential to any of the backgrounds so that all the book was useful to the GM.

Edited July 17, 2008 by Conrad

[Guest Vile Traveller]

I like the sound of a book of generic space opera rules ( ship design and combat and world generation) plus a few different backgrounds ( an updated Worlds Beyond plus an updated Future World possibly?). The generic rules would be essential to any of the backgrounds so that all the book was useful to the GM.

There was talk of such a thing on one of the BRP Yahoo! groups, but then DBRP happened and blew everything else out of the water. If Chaosium were interested in an "SF Toolkit" book of worldgen and shipbuilding (and maybe vehicle design, but I draw the line at having to design my own guns) I would definitely get on board. It's the one area where BRP has never tread, and it would open what few doors remain closed in terms of settings.

[rust]

Generic SF rules for BRP would jump right to the top of my RPG shopping list.

[NickMiddleton]

There was talk of such a thing on one of the BRP Yahoo! groups, but then DBRP happened and blew everything else out of the water. If Chaosium were interested in an "SF Toolkit" book of worldgen and shipbuilding (and maybe vehicle design, but I draw the line at having to design my own guns) I would definitely get on board. It's the one area where BRP has never tread, and it would open what few doors remain closed in terms of settings.

Would it though? To quote that disucssion on the BRP group:

I'm not sure I hate it, but I'm doubtful of it's commercial viability. Who has the time to build a universe these days? Why buy BRP Space rather than GURPS Space or d20 Future: and why buy any when in order to run a game I'll need to spend several days in preparation mapping some stars and creating worlds?

Gateway Domain or GURPS Interstellar Wars at least give me a backdrop so I don't have to do so much work. But what I actually want is the SF equivalent of Arkham Unveiled or Griffin Mountain or The Traveller Adventure (Hold on a sec...): a book that immediately enables me to game. To say "right, your mercenaries hired by this Multi-corps, just arrived at the neutral Tripoint Facilty at the edge of settled Space to find out what happened to the Survery Vessel Charon when it visited Trellinie VI..." and know that I have at least the obvious relevant people, places and things statted for me, with a sufficiently broad set of info that I can improvise in response to player action.

(see here for my original post).

Don't get me wrong, if someone wrote and Chaosium (or a licensed third party) published a "BRP Space" I'd probably buy it - but I think that those of us who did would be a relatively small, select few I'm afraid.

On the other hand a strongly presented, coherent BRP SF setting, that resonates well with currently popular written SF ideas even if it's an original creation and not a licensed property? That I think would sell very well. That to me seems the best route forward in the currrent climate, with perhaps a "BRP Space" as a monograph.

Cheers,

Nick

[GerallKahla]

On the other hand a strongly presented, coherent BRP SF setting, that resonates well with currently popular written SF ideas even if it's an original creation and not a licensed property? That I think would sell very well. That to me seems the best route forward in the currrent climate, with perhaps a "BRP Space" as a monograph.

Now there's an idea; monographs to provide the "core rules" for a given setting, and a full book devoted to a specific setting (which, incidentally, provides the content of the monograph).

Very intriguing method of organizing systems / settings.

For the record, I'll agree with Nick - one of the strengths of BRP has been there has (up until the BRP core book) always been a setting to fall back on with the purchase of a given game.

However, I'm curious about how something like a "BRP Space" monograph and "BRP <insert Setting Name here>" book would fare?

Anyone interested in building such a setting together? I've got some rules to contribute to the BRP Space portion of the work, and I'm sure we could develop a specific setting if we focus on it... Feel free to contact me about it!

[Dredj]

Personally, I would be up for a toolkit. There are several fine space settings that I would like to play in already. Starcluster would be my choice for settings.

This game Starquest Main Page has an interesting take on the space opera genre.

Maybe something like Hero Games Star Hero system would be cool. And they have setting books with the main toolkit book. HERO Games

I would be very interested in "retro futures". Maybe have supplements for the future as it was seen through the eyes of the decades of the 30s, 40s, 50s, through the 80s. Plus lots of cool artwork from the time periods to go with them (yeah, I know this is a pipedream).

Edited July 17, 2008 by Dredj

[Conrad]

Don't get me wrong, if someone wrote and Chaosium (or a licensed third party) published a "BRP Space" I'd probably buy it - but I think that those of us who did would be a relatively small, select few I'm afraid.

On the other hand a strongly presented, coherent BRP SF setting, that resonates well with currently popular written SF ideas even if it's an original creation and not a licensed property? That I think would sell very well. That to me seems the best route forward in the currrent climate, with perhaps a "BRP Space" as a monograph.

Cheers,

Nick

Just generic "BRP Space" rules I don't think would sell as well as generic rules plus a few space opera backgrounds with it.

Edited January 30, 2009 by Conrad

[Dredj]

Btw, all you people who bought Shock: Social Science Fiction shock: social science fiction . How is that working for world building?

[rust]

How is that working for world building?

I did buy it, but the mail from the USA takes up to 60 (!) days to arrive in

Germany, so I am still waiting for it ...

[rust]

Just generic "BRP Space" rules I don't think would sell as well as generic rules plus a few space opera backgrounds with it.

On the other hand, it could be useful to "test the water" with a generic BRP

Space PDF monograph, and it could create important feedback for a possible

later printed version with the improved rules from the monograph plus a set-

ting, I think.

[Guest Vile Traveller]

I used to think a generic SF rules companion* would not be commercially viable, until I looked at how popular GURPS Space is. The advantage of putting a "BRP Space" out sooner rather than later is that it provides a unifying basis for people to go off and write their own, fully BRP-compatible setting books under the Chaosium license or directly for Chaosium itself.

On the other hand, if everyone comes up with their own rules for their own setting, not only are they wasting effort re-inventing the wheel but the result might be further dilution of the "core" of BRP.

I'm not saying it would be easy, nor that I am qualified to write more than a small part of it. But I am saying it would be commercially viable, and provide a valuable common ground for launching SF BRP settings. As for not having enough time to create our own setting backgrounds ... actually, most of the gamers I know spend more time "armchair-gaming" than "tabletop-gaming" these days. I haven't been able to get a game together in over a year, but I have managed to co-produce a pretty extensive Traveller setting in that time.

*Everybody knows a BRP rulebook needs a companion :thumb:

[Nightshade]

The problem is that what will work for dedicated toolkit systems like GURPS and Hero may not work as well outside of it, and BRP is sort of neither fish nor fowl in that regard; its a somewhat generalized system, but until now its never really been presented primarily as a universal system. (And I say this almost never having used it for any of the specific worlds versions of it were presented for).

As someone noted, its almost always been packaged as the system to use to play very specific worlds. I'm not entirely sure heavily fishing in the pond that the two big universal systems swim in is going to work for additional products, though it'd be nice to be proven wrong.

[Conrad]

I used to think a generic SF rules companion* would not be commercially viable, until I looked at how popular GURPS Space is. The advantage of putting a "BRP Space" out sooner rather than later is that it provides a unifying basis for people to go off and write their own, fully BRP-compatible setting books under the Chaosium license or directly for Chaosium itself.

*Everybody knows a BRP rulebook needs a companion :thumb:

GURPS Space popular? With astrophysicists? The main failing of the current edition of GURPS Space is that it has no background that is ready to use.

[Conrad]

On the other hand, it could be useful to "test the water" with a generic BRP

Space PDF monograph, and it could create important feedback for a possible

later printed version with the improved rules from the monograph plus a set-

ting, I think.

Such a thing would be nice to see, but is there even a market for such a supplement? A few of us posting about such a thing may not give Chaosium the impetus to publish even a monograph. And even if it did you know how slowly Chaosium is in publishing such stuff.

We may be better off getting our heads together and cobbling a BRP Space supplement together ourselves.

[Simlasa]

We may be better off getting our heads together and cobbling a BRP Space supplement together ourselves.

I can see that moment when Nightshade, Soltakss, and Badcat all come into stellar alignment on weapons stats...

I can hear the harp music and the angelic choir... the glistening golden tablets handed down from on high...

But for now I think I'll just keep stealing stuff from Ringword, Future*World, and Worlds Beyond.