RQ2/Classic. How do thrown weapons work? Arrows weight/amount

[iamdiggerdoug]

1a. Are thrown weapons 1h or 2h or off hand?

1b. If 1h or 2h does that mean I would have to use 10ap to put away a sword and shield and then 5 to ready the thrown weapon (+3/sr to use) and then another 10 to re-quip a shield and sword 10,5,3,10 Or 1h main hand? 5,5,3,5 or am i not required to put away any weapons but just ready my throwning weapon 5,3 or are they considered to always be ready so it just cost me to put away and re-equip the other weapon?

Or if they are off hand is it that i must choose between a shield or thrown weapon to have ready and pay ap when I choose to swap. Or if thrown wigh thr main hand can i have the off hand holding the thrown to nagate or reduce the draw time if I dont have anythinv equiped in that hand?

2a. If 1h can I use and train my off hand to throw weapons and keep a main hand weapon ready instead of my off hand?

2b. Can I further that and hold a 2h weapon in the one main hand while throwing weapons with my off hand and negate the re-equip. (Maybe if I have enough str or reduce it)?

 

Sorry I'm new!

[Zit]

I don't have the rules at hand but it would be:

1a 1H. However cannot be used with a medium or large shield only (or was it the sling ? Check it out)

1b 5sr for the shield, 5sr for the sword, 5 sr for the thrown weapon, DEX sr to throw it (and not +3). You need then 2 rounds.

 

Don't forget that the rule cannot solve everything. Don't hesitate to adapt it if it makes more sense. For example drop a weapon =no sr, or doing 2 things simultaneously. 

[MJ Sadique]

RQ2 is a pionner of RPG (just google " RQ2 pionner" for fun !), it's rules mostly follow antic warfare logic so thrown weapons are mainly sling, Axe, Dagger, pilum / Javelin. I'm not good at RQ2 rules but as ZIT said : adapt the rule to get a realist usage.

• Axes and Daggers are usually throwned with your right arm, so two per round or 3 if you're very fast (with Dex SR at 0 : 3SR to take, 1SR to shoot)
• Darts as roman soldiers used them can be used with a big shield, sometimes the shields included a string to help carrying several darts. (no really need to ready it)

• Shooting with sling/staffsling need place (it's a 1,5-2m length not a toy sling), shield wider than a cubit (0,3m) is out-of-question. (5SR to ready it  : "start spinning it")
• Javelin are usually throwed with a string -like atlat or swiss arrow- so having 2 hands to prepare it and one hand to throw it. (5SR to ready it  : to attach the string...)

Javelin in RQ2 are 20m range so more a pilum than true javelin (100m range for a 2kg javelin). Axes, daggers and pilums can be used with medium shield that are fixed to your arm. About the amount / weight / (and price !) question :

• Sling : The world is full of rock and troll money (bolg)  is fine for this.
• Daggers : daggers build to be throwable aren't common, you can have 12 but rarely need more than 6 and they cost a bit !. 6 daggers = 300 L
• Axes : Usually 4 at max, you rarely need more 4 and the weight will be the biggest limitation. 4 axes = 4kg
• Dart : Usually a pack of 5 plumbata behing the shield and helb by a string. 5darts = 2.5kg (on left arm alone + shield weight !!!)
• Javelin/pilum : rarely need more than 3 to the battle field, Because if you lose them = -105 L . The enemy better take them and run away...

[Mugen]

Given the list of thrown weapons in RQ2 (dagger, axe, rock, javelin), I'd say all are 1H weapons.

Concerning the skills, I'd use the same rules as for 1H Melee weapons: if you want to learn to throw a weapon with your off-hand, you have to learn a specific skill for this, with a base of 5%. I can perfectly envision a fighter using a sword in his right hand, and a dagger in his left one, which he throws occasionally.

Finally, I'd say you don't need to get rid of both weapons to use a thrown weapon, only the one in the hand you're going to use.

[styopa]

Yeah, I think the complexity for a thrown weapon comes down so many possible situational variants you have to go with logic/reasonability as the guide.

For example, even though a javelin is 'technically' a 1h weapon, you couldn't (for example) throw two at the same time (one each in your left and right hands) like you could supposedly attack with two melee 1h weapons.

I'd probably allow a character with reasonable preparations to have one 1h thrown weapon ready in-hand, and if the other hand isn't doing anything (and sometimes even if they are, like the dart+shield example), have 1-3 'ready' reloads available - with a commensurate penalty if they have to use that hand for something else and don't simply drop the spare reloads.  Those are the ones for which the "3 sr between shots" applies.

[Zit]

5 sr between shots in rq2, nor 3. 3 was in rq3, but with 10 sr a round instead of 12 for rq2.

[soltakss]

P29 of RQ2 says " A shield cannot be ready for use when the character is using any projectile weapon but the sling (and that must be a small shield). This exception does not include the staff sling, which needs two hands, as do all bows and crossbows", so Staff Slings are 2-Handed. Others in the rule book are 1-Handed, but I can imagine a thrown hammer (Olympics-style) being 2-handed.

 

[iamdiggerdoug]

Just getting my head around this. The rules give an example of reloading arrows at 5 sr an arrow. So a ready self bow can loose an arrow for 3sr (average in given example) then reload for 5sr then loose again for another 3sr; a total of 11. For an "archer"

This too would be true for throwing axes for our "woodsmen"

However after that 2 shots the arrows would do 1d6+1 and a chance to impale where as axes would do 1d6 plus 1/2 damage bonus 0 to 3 but likely +1 i.e the same damage but no impale and they have an ENC of one each

You cant parry with a throwing weapon but could have shield equiped giving 5 or 10% where as a bow has the same parry as a staff 20%

Oh and then there's range 80 vs 20.

The only saving grace i see (or not as it happens)is that after the two shots are fired the archer has to unequip the bow before equiping a melle weapon but he could just drop the bow before readying a main weapon for melee (oh and plus 5 extra for a shield but in this case you'd probable go 2h weapon) where as the woodsmen would not have to drop or unequip anything (unless he wants to match a 2h weapon of the archer then he'd have to unequip his shield or have not had any parry option earlier!). However after that melee combat ends the woodsmen would have to use up 5 ar per axe to pick up the axes he throw? (Right?) before he could use them again on the next target; where as if the archer that just droped his bow, which would likely be by his feet/easier to find than the woodsmens axes that are stuck in/under the enermy or worse missed and went off some where into the distance! So the bow would only require picking up once at 5ar compared to 5 per axe (if you can find them!) Then if you get 4 arrows/axes off over two rounds is the woodsmen picking up axes for 2 melee rounds 10 per round with maybe an extra 2 that you cant do much with!

On top of this speedart is the only spell used while arrows have firearrow,multiarrow and speedart.

So a running total for the woodsmen is . . .

2 less spells

2 axes cost 20L more and 90L if you want 4.

4 axes enc twice as much as the bow.

60 less range.

Double or quadruple the down time after melee.

No chance to impale,

No parry

One less damage if the woodsmen has no damage bonus but only recieves 1/2 if he does.

So when or why would you choose throwing axes over a self bow ? (this doesnt even consider an elf bow or comosite doing 1d8+1 or a sling at 1d8-spells and impale chance)

 

 

 

 

[iamdiggerdoug]

Wow that was long sorry.

Also there is no mention of arrows having weigh/enc or cost and if they can or can't be recovered ( i asume you can recover a thrown weapon!)

[soltakss]

15 minutes ago, iamdiggerdoug said:

However after that 2 shots the arrows would do 1d6+1 and a chance to impale where as axes would do 1d6 plus 1/2 damage bonus 0 to 3 but likely +1 i.e the same damage but no impale and they have an ENC of one each

Yes, someone with a 1D4 Damage Bonus does +1D2 with a thrown axe, someone with +1D6 DB does +1D3, someone with +2D6 does +2D3, so strong PCs throwing axes do more damage.

 

15 minutes ago, iamdiggerdoug said:

You cant parry with a throwing weapon but could have shield equiped giving 5 or 10% where as a bow has the same parry as a staff 20%

I don't know anyone who parried with a bow, they usually threw it down and drew a weapon and shield.

 

15 minutes ago, iamdiggerdoug said:

Oh and then there's range 80 vs 20.

Yes, bows have longer range than axes, because in the real world they do.

 

15 minutes ago, iamdiggerdoug said:

The only saving grace i see (or not as it happens)is that after the two shots are fired the archer has to unequip the bow before equiping a melle weapon but he could just drop the bow before readying a main weapon for melee (oh and plus 5 extra for a shield but in this case you'd probable go 2h weapon) where as the woodsmen would not have to drop or unequip anything (unless he wants to match a 2h weapon of the archer then he'd have to unequip his shield or have not had any parry option earlier!). However after that melee combat ends the woodsmen would have to use up 5 ar per axe to pick up the axes he throw? (Right?) before he could use them again on the next target; where as if the archer that just droped his bow, which would likely be by his feet/easier to find than the woodsmens axes that are stuck in/under the enermy or worse missed and went off some where into the distance! So the bow would only require picking up once at 5ar compared to 5 per axe (if you can find them!) Then if you get 4 arrows/axes off over two rounds is the woodsmen picking up axes for 2 melee rounds 10 per round with maybe an extra 2 that you cant do much with!

Yes, that is an advantage.

 

15 minutes ago, iamdiggerdoug said:

On top of this speedart is the only spell used while arrows have firearrow,multiarrow and speedart.

Not true, you can cast Firearrow or Multimissile on a thrown axe in the same way that you can an arrow.

 

15 minutes ago, iamdiggerdoug said:

So a running total for the woodsmen is . . .

2 less spells

2 axes cost 20L more and 90L if you want 4.

4 axes enc twice as much as the bow.

60 less range.

Double or quadruple the down time after melee.

No chance to impale,

No parry

One less damage if the woodsmen has no damage bonus but only recieves 1/2 if he does.

So when or why would you choose throwing axes over a self bow ? (this doesnt even consider an elf bow or comosite doing 1d8+1 or a sling at 1d8-spells and impale chance)

Several reasons:

• Cultural - Maybe you have a geas "Only use Axes" or don't like using bows, trolls wouldn't use bows, for example
• Speed - Put three or four throwing axes on a belt and you can flick them out without having to draw a bow first, you can do this in melee by dropping your melee weapon and grabbing axes
• Law - Maybe bows are not allowed to be carried in some towns but axes are OK
• Space - Readying and drawing a bo in a confined space might be hard whereas throwing axes might be easy
• Opponents - Zombies take minimum damage from impaling weapons, such as arrows, but full damage from slashing weapons, such as axes

But, generally, bows are better than axes, in RQ2 and in real life.

 

[MJ Sadique]

8 minutes ago, soltakss said:

P29 of RQ2 says " A shield cannot be ready for use when the character is using any projectile weapon but the sling (and that must be a small shield). This exception does not include the staff sling, which needs two hands, as do all bows and crossbows", so Staff Slings are 2-Handed. Others in the rule book are 1-Handed, but I can imagine a thrown hammer (Olympics-style) being 2-handed.

Staffsling are 2 handed ... why bother telling us ?? for the one who don't visualize the weapon (search "fustibalus") :

19 minutes ago, iamdiggerdoug said:

So when or why would you choose throwing axes over a self bow ? (this doesnt even consider an elf bow or comosite doing 1d8+1 or a sling at 1d8-spells and impale chance)

Throwing axes are a Axe that is throw-able... which mean you can use it as a axe in melee fight and if the enemy is/go out of the melee, you can throw it  or not !

Throwing axe and dagger aren't the best melee weapon but you can throw them so if you're going into a fight (behind a wall), you are ready wherever the enemy is on the ground (melee) or in a tree/on a house (distance) so :

Fighter (Dex SR0) with 2 axes in hands (prepared missile cost 0SR) (ranged attack, ready a weapon) SR : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 <2 strike per round>

 

[g33k]

I would consider an axe as a melee-weapon that CAN BE thrown if needed; I would not PLAN ON using it for ranged combat.  And sustained missile-fire is right out of consideration!

I see the advantage to be in the tactical  / situational versatility:  bows are dedicated missile-weapons (no matter how much you loved Jackson &Co choreography of Orlando Bloom), and a melee/ranged weapon just gives choices a bow doesn't give...

In rpg combat, I would estimate that roughly half the fights (of those with tactical / position constraints) have a situation where one character sees a situation where they want to intervene then and there, but cannot because it's too far away / too many intervening combatants / etc for them to get there.  If they are fighting with a throw'able weapon, they can still act/react on their SR (or with a penalty in SR's... but still, they CAN take action (across the battlefield) that round).

[soltakss]

15 minutes ago, iamdiggerdoug said:

Wow that was long sorry.

Also there is no mention of arrows having weigh/enc or cost and if they can or can't be recovered ( i asume you can recover a thrown weapon!)

A bow and a quiver of arrows has 2 ENC. We assumed that a bow chas 1 ENC and a quiver of 20 arrows had 1 ENC, but that was just a houserule.

I suppose you can recover arrows, especially if they missed the target. As a PC once said in our old RQ campaign "I don't suppose I can recover the arrows that exploded ..."

[soltakss]

5 minutes ago, MJ Sadique said:

Staffsling are 2 handed ... why bother telling us ?? for the one who don't visualize the weapon (search "fustibalus") :

Not everyone knows what a staff sling is, I didn't when I started playing RQ, as I had never seen one.

[soltakss]

4 minutes ago, g33k said:

I would consider an axe as a melee-weapon that CAN BE thrown if needed; I would not PLAN ON using it for ranged combat.  And sustained missile-fire is right out of consideration!

Throwing a melee weapon is good and bad.Good in the sense that it gives you a way of stopping an enemy who suddenly runs away. bad in the Three Musketeers sense of "Only Aramis could think of a way to disarm himself", if it was Aramis, I cannot remember.

[iamdiggerdoug]

In the rules it states several axes with none having the same value as a throwing axe and sort of says you can't parry with them either and doesnt state using them as melee weapons at all, so I was under the impression using them as such was wrong.

 

P.s this started out as me thinking I was not understanding the rules correctly as I couldnt image using a thrown weapon instead of a bow. Other than set peices where a bow may not be allowed or in a tight spot it still seems more logical to ready a bow and fire off an arrow over a thrown weapon, which to me seems to limit the amout thrown weapons would be used!

 

Pp.s My bad on the spells, although you would burn away the weapon uaed for a firearrow and multimissle says arrow but what the hell.

[MJ Sadique]

10 minutes ago, iamdiggerdoug said:

In the rules it states several axes with none having the same value as a throwing axe and sort of says you can't parry with them either and doesnt state using them as melee weapons at all, so I was under the impression using them as such was wrong.

RQ2 is one of the oldest RGP... don't except it to be exhaustive in terms of weaponry. If you think using a tomahawk, you can use Hatchet type for melee and throwing axe for distance. Just see it more as a list of "type of weapon" ...

a bit like the rapier thread ... you can have twenty different weapons corresponding to one weapon characteristic.

[soltakss]

37 minutes ago, iamdiggerdoug said:

Pp.s My bad on the spells, although you would burn away the weapon uaed for a firearrow and multimissle says arrow but what the hell.

In my copy of RQ2 Classic, it just mentions missiles in Multimissile and doesn't mention arrows. Under Firearrow, it does say this produces an arrow, but also says that it can be used on sling stones and thrown weapons. The names can be confusing. Firearrow does destroy the weapon, but does 3D6 damage, so could be worth the tradeoff.

 

[Yelm's Light]

First, there's no chance I'd allow three thrown attacks in a single round in my game.  And second, try throwing something accurately with your off hand.  Unless you're ambidextrous (estimated at less than 1% of the general population) , it's highly unlikely you'd ever be able to throw with even close to the same accuracy and strength as with your main hand.

[MJ Sadique]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

In my copy of RQ2 Classic, it just mentions missiles in Multimissile and doesn't mention arrows. Under Firearrow, it does say this produces an arrow, but also says that it can be used on sling stones and thrown weapons. The names can be confusing. Firearrow does destroy the weapon, but does 3D6 damage, so could be worth the tradeoff.

An arrow is just a stick of wood, destroyed by 1 pts damage but for a dagger or the metal head of an axe... no. Spells rules are one thing but a bit of realism, a firearrow spell on an tomahawk (throwing axe) is equivalent to fireblade on tomahawk (hatchet)...

 

12 minutes ago, Yelm's Light said:

First, there's no chance I'd allow three thrown attacks in a single round in my game.  And second, try throwing something accurately with your off hand.  Unless you're ambidextrous (estimated at less than 1% of the general population) , it's highly unlikely you'd ever be able to throw with even close to the same accuracy and strength as with your main hand.

[Happy to find some Popcorn !] Go out of your house, find some throwable stone (half punch size), call a friend to film you. If you can't throw more than 2 stones in twelve seconds... post it on youtube and give me the link please XD.

[Yelm's Light]

4 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

[Happy to find some Popcorn !] Go out of your house, find some throwable stone (half punch size), call a friend to film you. If you can't throw more than 2 stones in twelve seconds... post it on youtube and give me the link please XD.

Try swinging a sword three times in 12 seconds.  Pretty easy, right?  Yet the only way you can get three attacks in one round is if it's carried over from a previous round and timed just right.

Try to hit a fist-sized target with that rock, with enough force to do more than a bruise.  Now try it with a throwing axe, pulling one off your belt each time.

MGDV.  My game does vary, at least from yours.  No other unenhanced weapon attacks get three per round.  This one isn't either.

Edited October 12, 2016 by Yelm's Light

[iamdiggerdoug]

The issue isn't being able to throw 3 axes in a single round but more that due to the draw time you would be better off carrying a bow in most situations. This thread has really helped tho, I think I will ask our group to do one of the following;

1.Allow an axe that can be both used in melee and thrown. but likely two seperate skills to train. (This gives me the ability to throw quickly but at the risk of leaving me unarmed briefly.)

So just 3sr to throw axe currently held axe and then 5 to pull another, a total of 8.

Rather than 5 to put away main 5 to pull throw-able, 3 to throw it and another 5 to replace 18 sr. (Note the time taken is 13sr from the point when you begin the process of throwing, this gives the target the ability to move 39 meters away! But that's the same time to draw and fire a bow and 39 meters would put a thrown weapon out of range!)

Or

2. Allow a main hand weapon to be transferred to a the off hand (perhaps costing 2sr) freeing the main hand to draw a thrown weapon for 5sr [or maybe less? ] then the sr to throw (3sr likely) so a little slower than above but a more ready for the next melee encounter.

This would work with a 1h weapon going to an off hand already equip with a small or medium shield (however both shield and weapon are useless and just holding ground for the weapon) or a 2h weapon in the off hand ( again useless until the main hand is free to properly wield the weapon again).

 

I think this would give the throw-able weapons more viability without breaking real life logic or making trow-ables op.

What do you guys think?

 

 

 

Edited October 12, 2016 by iamdiggerdoug
update mistakes

[Yelm's Light]

Just to make clear, I'm an RQ2 guy.  I've read RQ3, but my conclusions are based solely on RQ2 and my own experiences running it.  Also, one of the favorite acronyms you'll see around here is YGMV (Your Game May Vary).  So anyway, this is what I'd do in my game:

Case 1:  Both modes would be treated in the appropriate category...Axe, 1H (Hatchet) in melee and Axe, Throwing for missile combat.

Case 2:  I'd rule that switching weapons counts as one action and thus is equivalent to drawing a weapon, so it'd be 5 SR.  Drawing the second weapon is an action as well, so that's another 5 SR; you'd be at SR10 before adding for the actual first attack.

 

Edited October 12, 2016 by Yelm's Light

[MJ Sadique]

Just to make clear, I'm an RQ3 guy.  I've read RQ2, but my conclusions are based solely on RQ3 and my own experiences running it.  Also, one of the favorite acronyms you'll see around here is YGMV (Your Gagme May Vary).  So anyway, this is what I'd do in my game:

Case 1 :  200% agree with you two. Melee and ranged should be 2 skills. (I've even have a player with throwing sword skills... XD)

Case 2 :  Drawing/preparing a weapon take time because you can't take out a weapon easily with a enemy at bay... BUT when using a bastard sword 1H, you can drop a shield for 0 SR (shield without string) and attack with 2 hands without extra SR. Having right hand free and a weapon in the left should not count as preparing a weapon (personnal POV). If your right hand isn't free FULL 5 SR !

PS : forcing a player to use 5 SR to switch a weapon having a free hand will only make him to devellop "Throwing axe (left hand)". Start this and you'll end up to print extras sheet just for the list of weapon.

• 4 skill per weapons : Axe (right hand), Axe (left hand), Throwing axe (right hand), Throwing axe (left hand)) X 3 Weapons = Start of a Hellish nightmare...

If you don't mind this, go ahead but I don't like the idea of a simple game like RQ2 going in "collection of weapon skill game"...even in RQ3, I won't do it !

Edited October 12, 2016 by MJ Sadique
forget some color XD

[Zit]

The OP (and its topic) is about rq2.

Many weapons  = a lot to train = you are good at nothing. This is a choice left to the players but which makes not so much sense .

You can always find a case where the rule does not apply well. Keep it simple when possible and adapt it if it seems to be a nonsense. But make sure the players agree. However you won't have to in more than 99% of the cases. I don't even remember having needed this.

Preparing a weapon is not just holding it but holding it properly with the right stancea and in the right position  to be able to use it efficiently.

Edited October 12, 2016 by Zit