So here is a “where would I set this” question.

[Spence]

In the way back, 80-90’s?, we played RQ with the visualization of classical Greece.   Like the old 50’s/60’s  sword and sandal movies.

 

There was a part of the RQ world that was close enough and we did the whole galleys (bireme/trireme), merchantmen, alongside Hoplites and such.  We had a great time of it.  And even though I cannot remember details, I can remember how fun it was.

 

So I guess the meat of the question is where in the RQ world would come closest to this style/theme of play? 

[g33k]

Coastal Esrolia would be my 1st consideration here.

If you want to do a mashup of hoplites/galleys with the archetypal "wretched hive of scum and villainy" then maybe Corflu, at the mouth of the Zola Fel.

[Spence]

Since I've decided to reenter RQ with RQG I am hesitent to start buying large numbers of older pdf's. 

With that in mind, which reference would be best to read up on that location?

[g33k]

There is always the entry in the Guide to Glorantha, of course. It's the "view from 30,000 feet" version, but it should be completely-correct if not complete.

 

http://glorantha.wikia.com/wiki/Esrolia

http://www.glorantha.com/docs/esrolian-culture/

http://glorantha.tumblr.com/post/104888618753/tell-us-of-ernaldas-most-favored-land-esrolia

http://www.chaosium.com/esrolia-the-land-of-ten-thousand-goddesses-pdf/  -- despite being an "older PDF" this is probably the most-comnplete content available on Esrolia(the "Stafford Library" docs are classice core "source material" for line authors and Glorantha Geeks.  I don't have it, myself, but will probably be getting it.

 

Edited May 20, 2017 by g33k
trying to get rid of the "link" effect on the initisal sentence...

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

Coastal Esrolia would be my 1st consideration here.

If you want to do a mashup of hoplites/galleys

Esrolia certainly has the galleys, particularly Nochet and Rhigos.  While they do have spearmen and axe men (and of course Axe Maidens), they don't have classical hoplites/phalanx.  However, they do hire mercenaries at various times, probably including the Sun Dome Templars from Dragon Pass who are hoplites.  Before 1622 they might also hire other hoplite-style mercenaries from the Lunar provinces to help defend against the barbarian Greymane.

The classic Gloranthan hoplites are the regiments of the Lunar Empire (e.g. Marble Phalanx, Granite Phalanx, etc.).  There is an expeditionary force of Lunars sent in 1623 to try to retake Nochet for their Esrolian ally, Queen Hendira, and they besiege the city for a good part of the year until more anti-Lunar forces (including Argrath and Harrek the Berserk) arrive in 1624.  The siege is not complete since the Lunars don't control the sea.

1 hour ago, g33k said:

probably the most-comnplete content available on Esrolia

It is still the best current source for the history (though there are also references in History of the Heortling People).

If you think Minoan mixed with Etruscan, some ancient Vedic Indian, and a Bedouin-style, but matriarchal rulership, you'll have the general feel for Esrolia.

[g33k]

6 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

... and a Bedouin-style, but matriarchal rulership ...

This element surprises a bit.  Can you go into a bit more about the "Bedouin-style" ?

 

[jajagappa]

3 minutes ago, g33k said:

This element surprises a bit.  Can you go into a bit more about the "Bedouin-style" ?

Esrolian culture, particularly in the cities, is dominated by the Grandmothers of the clans (also called 'houses') who all the Esrolians agree have the authority to tell their kinfolk what to do (e.g. what cult to join, who to marry, what duties and obligations they need to perform, etc.).  Day-to-day law and order isn't delegated down - it is the responsibility of individuals to manage themselves (as in Orlanthi society in general). If they can't manage themselves, their Grandmother will. Kin protect kin, and when you have disputes between kinship groups, it ends up being negotiated by the Grandmothers.  If the Grandmothers are deadlocked, they may appoint an arbiter (e.g. a priestess from a relevant temple).  These are loose agreements though and do not set binding precedents, though may be roughly based on the Four Virtues of Imarja (failure to maintain such whether at the individual or clan level leads to Disorder, and causing Disorder may result in Ernalda and the goddesses withdrawing protection and opens the individual or clan to spirits of disease).

[Spence]

So I dug out my copies of the RQ Rulebook and the Big Rubble. 

Unless they were just slapping anything on the page the majority of the humans in armor on the Core book and most of the Pavis guards in the Big Rubble are clearly cribbed from from the classical Greek hoplite.  

The Lunar pics appear to be taken from Rome.  I picked out Roman cavalry, a Centurion and a Legionnaire with Moon Crescents in for the plume.

So it looks like they took some things from the classical and ancient worlds.

I didn't think my memory was too far gone. 

[Spence]

@jajagappa

 

49 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Esrolia certainly has the galleys, particularly Nochet and Rhigos.  While they do have spearmen and axe men (and of course Axe Maidens), they don't have classical hoplites/phalanx.  However, they do hire mercenaries at various times, probably including the Sun Dome Templars from Dragon Pass who are hoplites.  Before 1622 they might also hire other hoplite-style mercenaries from the Lunar provinces to help defend against the barbarian Greymane.

The classic Gloranthan hoplites are the regiments of the Lunar Empire (e.g. Marble Phalanx, Granite Phalanx, etc.).  There is an expeditionary force of Lunars sent in 1623 to try to retake Nochet for their Esrolian ally, Queen Hendira, and they besiege the city for a good part of the year until more anti-Lunar forces (including Argrath and Harrek the Berserk) arrive in 1624.  The siege is not complete since the Lunars don't control the sea.

It is still the best current source for the history (though there are also references in History of the Heortling People).

If you think Minoan mixed with Etruscan, some ancient Vedic Indian, and a Bedouin-style, but matriarchal rulership, you'll have the general feel for Esrolia.

 

Hmmm...   Well the setting may be calling the Lunar Empire troops Hoplites, but the pictures they used are clearly based on Roman Legions.  The hoplite art is repeatedly used in the core rulebook and in the Big Rubble setting when referencing the native Pavis troops (I haven't read to see exactly what nation/culture/people in the Core Book/Big Rubble belong to). . 

I can picture the mix you are describing for Esrolia, but don't see how the classic Greek influenced adventure base gets shift to a Etruscan/Indian/Bedouin adventure base?

 

Edited May 20, 2017 by Spence

[Mankcam]

In the current view of Glorantha, the Theylan/Orlanthi culture is very Mycenaean Age, so dong online searches for Mycenaean Age cultures around the Mediterranean is a good fit for visuals of Orlanthi.

I tend to use Thracians as an Orlanthi foundation, and mix it up from there, depending upon whether they are Sartarites, Tarshites, Pavisites, Hendriki, Esrolians, etc.

For Sartarites I am mixing up the Achaeans with Thracians, in liberal brushstrokes.

For Esrolians I am mixing Minoans with Thracians, it seems to fit a lot of the imagery associated with them.  Plus they are adept with ocean travel since The Opening, so the harbour of Nochet will be filled with Galleys and Tiremes.

For Pavasites I tend to mix Ionians with Thracians, as I always felt that Old Pavis was a Trojan analogy in some ways.

If someone is wanting to play 'Ancient Greece' then I don't see any close analogy to the Hellenic Era, but using the earlier era fits well. 

 

Edited May 21, 2017 by Mankcam

[Mankcam]

For Lunar Empire, I would portray the core Pelorian culture as a mix between Sumerians, Hittites, and Achaemenids (early Persians).

Then for the Lunar Imperial Army I use a lot of Roman Republic military trappings, but overlay this over the base Sumerian/Persian mix. That way you get a very different flavour for the Lunars, far less Roman than they were portrayed in RQ3/HW era products.

Edited May 21, 2017 by Mankcam

[jajagappa]

8 minutes ago, Spence said:

I can picture the mix you are describing for Esrolia, but don't see how the classic Greek influenced adventure base

That's why I was noting those aspects because I didn't think it was a strong fit, despite the presence of galleys.

6 minutes ago, Mankcam said:

If someone is wanting to play 'Ancient Greece' then I don't see any close analogy to the Hellenic Era, but using the earlier era fits well.

I agree with that - at least among the cultures we know well.

4 minutes ago, Mankcam said:

for the Lunar Imperial Army I us a lot of Roman Republic trappings, but overlay this over the base Sumerian/Persian mix.

Which seems a reasonable approach.

Probably the best still for classic 'Greek' hoplites are the Sun Dome Templars.

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, Spence said:

There was a part of the RQ world that was close enough and we did the whole galleys (bireme/trireme), merchantmen, alongside Hoplites and such.  We had a great time of it.  And even though I cannot remember details, I can remember how fun it was.

So I guess the meat of the question is where in the RQ world would come closest to this style/theme of play? 

Although the new RQG is getting back to the Bronze Age roots, you certainly don't need to feel obligated to follow that if you like a classical Greek style.  YGWV.

Karse might be a good city to use.  It's on the Mirrorsea Bay, it's been captured by the Lunars, and it's not far from Sun Dome Temple lands.

[Mankcam]

Karse is an excellent choice if one doesn't want Matriarchs running everything, and wants a coastal setting to sandbox.

I have been considering using Karse myself, it feels very Mediterranean-flavoured, and it has lots of possibilities. It's certainly not as big or as powerful as Notchet, yet it is still a pivotal port.

The city is a Theyalan/Orlanthi settlement, which looks to be the coastal port for the Hendreiki people.

At this stage I am mixing Dorians with Thracians for a cultural flavour to help portray the Hendriki, although published sources may alter this in future. The coastal Hendriki of Karse will have a nautical flavour, as would any population living on the shores of the Mirrorsea. 

There may also be many Pelaskasites trading their deep sea catches here. I envision that they may be analogous with the historic Pelasgian culture (a rudimentary people who were adept with fishing & sea travel, sporadically populating the Adriatic, Aegean, Marmara, and Black Seas; whom eventually were subsumed into one of the more prominent Mycenaean cultures. Sometimes referred to as 'The Sea Peoples', especially those whom were involved in piracy). So again another potential reference for ancient Mediterranean flavour.

The Lunar presence here is also quite important, adding to the tension and local politics of the city. The Lunars finally have a seaport now (alongside the more remote Corfu), so Karse will be quite important in their future plans. However it is a long way from the Empire, and Lunars have no experience with the sea, so they will be relying on working with pre-existing local interests in order to develop any potential trade or travel routes.

Lots of great sandbox potential here.

I would perhaps use Mycenaean-era Argos as a reasonable analogy for Karse; an excellent choice for the type of setting Spence is describing in the original post.

 

Edited May 21, 2017 by Mankcam

[Mankcam]

56 minutes ago, Mankcam said:

.

 

Edited May 21, 2017 by Mankcam

[MOB]

 

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Esrolian culture, particularly in the cities, is dominated by the Grandmothers of the clans (also called 'houses') who all the Esrolians agree have the authority to tell their kinfolk what to do (e.g. what cult to join, who to marry, what duties and obligations they need to perform, etc.).  Day-to-day law and order isn't delegated down - it is the responsibility of individuals to manage themselves (as in Orlanthi society in general). If they can't manage themselves, their Grandmother will. Kin protect kin, and when you have disputes between kinship groups, it ends up being negotiated by the Grandmothers.  If the Grandmothers are deadlocked, they may appoint an arbiter (e.g. a priestess from a relevant temple).  These are loose agreements though and do not set binding precedents, though may be roughly based on the Four Virtues of Imarja (failure to maintain such whether at the individual or clan level leads to Disorder, and causing Disorder may result in Ernalda and the goddesses withdrawing protection and opens the individual or clan to spirits of disease).

Excellent stuff. Substitute 'Bedu' for 'Esrolian' and 'Sheikhs' for 'Grandmothers' and the Hadith for the four virtues, and this aptly describes how traditional Bedouin society operated - well, to my experience, still operates to a large extent. 

[kaydet]

7 hours ago, Mankcam said:

For Lunar Empire, I would portray the core Pelorian culture as a mix between Sumerians, Hittites, and Achaemenids (early Persians).

Then for the Lunar Imperial Army I us a lot of Roman Republic military trappings, but overlay this over the base Sumerian/Persian mix. That way you get a very different flavour for the Lunars, far less Roman than they were portrayed in RQ3/HW era products.

I think this is on point. I've always seen the Lunar army on more of a Persian model, with lots of detachments (or regiments) of significant variance in equipment, origin, and capability.

Perhaps Carmanian troops could represent a semi-professional force on the Marian Roman model -- though with their cataphracts it might be more reasonable to represent them with Byzantine themata. These would, of course, represent only a small portion of the overall strength of the army.

 

Edited May 21, 2017 by kaydet

[Joerg]

Yelmalio is listed among the Noble Brothers (Esrolia p.38), but the Esrolians have a hate relationship after having betrayed a Tharkantus-worshipping king (p.43) whose temple was placed on their lands by the dragonlords without saying pretty please. Seems to be a typical sequence - a queen woos a militarily powerful leader, helps him destroy her enemies, then backstabs the king and his people, and puts all the blame on the dead husband.

Anyway, hoplites next to triremes make sense, though not exactly on triremes, especially if the triremes are primarily ramming ships rather than corvus-equipped infantry platforms.

Neither are Bronze Age, although they make good visuals if you don't want to look for other iron age cultures.

 

 

 

[MOB]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

Anyway, hoplites next to triremes make sense, though not exactly on triremes, especially if the triremes are primarily ramming ships rather than corvus-equipped infantry platforms.

Neither are Bronze Age, although they make good visuals if you don't want to look for other iron age cultures

I think the corvus, the movable boarding bridge with a big spike on the end of it, would work well for aquatic warfare on the Mirrorsea Bay, given the bay's propensity to be calm (ships that had them were dangerously top-heavy, especially in choppy waters).

I like the idea that the corvus is a Lunar innovation though, when they finally get to the Holy Country and need to contest for supremacy on the water. They are not a maritime empire, and don't have cadres of skilled rowers. But if they can get their infantry on board opposing ships they stand a chance. The Esrolian navy rams to sink, the Lunars board. I suspect the God Forgot Navy, such as it is, uses the Gloranthan equivalent of Greek Fire.

Edited May 21, 2017 by MOB

[MOB]

2 hours ago, MOB said:

I like the idea that the corvus is a Lunar innovation though, when they finally get to the Holy Country and need to contest for supremacy on the water. They are not a maritime empire, and don't have cadres of skilled rowers. But if they can get their infantry on board opposing ships they stand a chance. The Esrolian navy rams to sink, the Lunars board. I suspect the God Forgot Navy, such as it is, uses the Gloranthan equivalent of Greek Fire.

And to show that not everything has a proximate RW Ancient times analogue, here's what I reckon the God Forgot Navy, such as it is, deploys:

The Put-Put Barges of God Forgot

The flat-bottomed barges of God Forgot are commonly made of tin (or other metals) scrounged from the twisted remains of Zistorite war machines scattered across the archipelago. They make a distinctive “put-put” sound, due to their unique propulsion system which is unknown elsewhere in Glorantha. 

Though ignorant foreigners might think demons have been chained to the bottom of the barges, neither spirits nor magic is involved. The craft are actually driven by extremely rudimentary engines. Heating an internal tank causes water to be alternately sucked in and then expelled through the pipes at the stern (hence the “put-put” sound). It is difficult to regulate the speed, and the bargemen know the initial priming of the steam chamber is the trickiest part of the process. Nevertheless, once going the barges can putter along indefinitely, provided the heat is maintained. Wood is scare in God Forgot, so the bargemen often use mutton-bird oil extract or rendered puffin fat for fuel.

The put-put barges are one of the few overt technological items still in common use by the former adherents of the Machine God. Though the Clanking City fell over 700 years ago, the powers of the world fear any sign of a Zistorite resurgence. Perhaps the Ingareens were excused in the case of their barges due to the utter simplicity of the design, which has no moving parts.

c.f. pop-pop boat

[Joerg]

11 minutes ago, MOB said:

The Put-Put Barges of God Forgot

The flat-bottomed barges of God Forgot are commonly made of tin (or other metals) scrounged from the twisted remains of Zistorite war machines scattered across the archipelago. They make a distinctive “put-put” sound, due to their unique propulsion system which is unknown elsewhere in Glorantha. 

 

The Orlanthi might have a similar drive, fueled by the Trickster Fart spell, which might have been the original version of the Slontan precursor of these barges, too.

Are these barges turtle-clads, like the fire-barges mentioned in the History of the Heortling Peoples (pp.57, 62)?

In my old setting, I had a nation of (RQ) ogres who used seal skin stretched over flat-ribbed metal frames for their ship hulls.

I suppose the God Forgotten might also have a few windbag-runners using captured air elementals pushing platfoms surrounded by a leather skirt just above the surface of water or tidal flats.

[MOB]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Are these barges turtle-clads, like the fire-barges mentioned in the History of the Heortling Peoples (pp.57, 62)?

I suppose the God Forgotten might also have a few windbag-runners using captured air elementals pushing platfoms surrounded by a leather skirt just above the surface of water or tidal flats.

The "fire-spouting Zistorite Bronze Turtle Galleys" mentioned in that Second Age document are now part of the scrap metal that litters the archipelago, wreckage from the Machine War. It's from these the twisted remains that the God Forgot folk make their more innocuous barges. 

It is rumoured though, that Leonardo the Scientist has a fire-breathing metallic turtle to scare away the curious from his tower at Crab Key, a small islet off the westernmost point of Thoxos Island. (He's probably built a air-elemental-powered hovercraft as you've described too at some point—as with many of Leonardo's inventions, it's not that difficult for him to make something that works, but making something efficient, effective or scalable is an entirely different matter. Rarely would he get 3/3).

Edited May 21, 2017 by MOB

[styopa]

While the put-put boat is a charming idea, I have to admit that this is one of those RPG setting things that just baffles me?

"...ignorant foreigners might think demons have been chained to the bottom of the barges..."

Of course they would think that, because in a magic-uniquitous place like Glorantha, it's simpler, cheaper, and far more reliable to use fire-elementals bound into service to heat such chambers, if one felt that simply having water elementals pushing one's boat was somehow too vulnerable.  Yes, of course they'd be vulnerable to counter-magics, but certainly no more risky (and in the 90%+ of the time when such boats aren't actually in combat) cleaner, much more stable and controllable, and simply less dangerous than mucking about with pots of flammable/explosive quasi-napalm.

[Joerg]

16 minutes ago, styopa said:

While the put-put boat is a charming idea, I have to admit that this is one of those RPG setting things that just baffles me?

"...ignorant foreigners might think demons have been chained to the bottom of the barges..."

Of course they would think that, because in a magic-uniquitous place like Glorantha, it's simpler, cheaper, and far more reliable to use fire-elementals bound into service to heat such chambers, if one felt that simply having water elementals pushing one's boat was somehow too vulnerable.  Yes, of course they'd be vulnerable to counter-magics, but certainly no more risky (and in the 90%+ of the time when such boats aren't actually in combat) cleaner, much more stable and controllable, and simply less dangerous than mucking about with pots of flammable/explosive quasi-napalm.

The use of water elementals for propulsion was a Waertagi trademark - the biggest ones were called waves, up to Tidal Wave. Here's the question whether the God Forgotten are closer to Malkioni seafarers or closer to the ancient Brithini allies, the Waertagi.

The Ludoch will probably be firmly in the Waertagi camp, but the Rightarmers are the first and maybe most dedicated followers of Dormal, and wouldn't be very agreeable to the High Seas taken away from them again.

I am far from convinced that getting a bound fire elemental to heat the water would be cheaper. While the God Forgotten don't have any elemental preferences, the availability of such elementals would be limited. The equivalent to an oil lamp array isn't that hard to manufacture, and much less of a risk in a ship with a metal hull. Without a wicker, most oil sorts won't burn.

[styopa]

"...the availability of such elementals would be limited..."

There's a population limit on elementals?  As far as I can tell, every time you summon one, they come.

And then consider the PRECISE level of control one would have with an elemental, as well as the ability to instantly control temperatures, and it's not really arguable.

Plus, at that level of tech it's not like they're precisely refining such oils - they'd be prone to volatilization (ie storage would be a severe problem), leakage (petroleum solvents can be quite corrosive), not to mention extraordinarily vulnerable to something as mundane as a fire-arrow, not to mention malicious magic.

OTOH, a fire elemental binding is what, 3-4 POW for the enchantment?  For something as large-investment as a warboat that's trivial.