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Combat Rounds: is it 12 or really 6


mrk

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If there's one major issue I have iwith BRP is this; The idea that combat rounds are thought of as 12 seconds intervals. Having been both a spectator and active participant in both sports and martial arts, It seems to me 12 seconds is an incredibly long time to act as a gage when people engaging physically with one another when so much happen in such a short amount of time. Infact, if you were to break down and analyze what's happening in a sporting or martial arts event, the six second rule does make sense to some degree. Here's a few random videos that I think give merit to what I'm saying.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dl4xpy7i_Bw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbUxZVNAO2w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZyzFLfmDeU&feature=related <--great documentry series on martial arts

Edited by mrk
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This is one major issue I have with BRP is that combat rounds are thought of as 12 seconds intervals. Having been interested in both sports and martial artist, It seems to me 12 seconds is an incredibly long time to act as a gage when you have people engaging physically with one another. In fact, if you were to break down and analyze what's happening in a sporting or martial arts event, the six second rule does make sense as a lot go's on within just a few seconds...

*shrug* change it if you like. In the end, it's an arbitrary figure pulled out of the air that has little impact on the specific game mechanics. Provided you leave the rules governing what goes on within the round unchanged you can redefine a round as 1 second, 3 seconds, 6 seconds or a minute, it doesn't really matter. The round, and whatever sequencing rules you choose to use (DEX ranks or Strike Ranks) are an abstraction whose sole purpose is to make a playable game out of sitting round a table rolling dice to pretend we are in a real melee.

Back when RQ/BRP was first on the scene it was regarded as a bit weird as the combat round was so short (D&D was a 1 minute round, Traveller was using 15 seconds IIRC). I first encountered six second combat rounds in FGU's Space Opera I think, and like a lot of the details in that much maligned game, I think they make a lot of sense - but it really doesn't bother me that much.

Cheers,

Nick

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*shrug* change it if you like. In the end, it's an arbitrary figure pulled out of the air that has little impact on the specific game mechanics. Provided you leave the rules governing what goes on within the round unchanged you can redefine a round as 1 second, 3 seconds, 6 seconds or a minute, it doesn't really matter. The round, and whatever sequencing rules you choose to use (DEX ranks or Strike Ranks) are an abstraction whose sole purpose is to make a playable game out of sitting round a table rolling dice to pretend we are in a real melee.

I have no such problems with changing it or any rule. I'm simply stating that I don't think this statement in the rules applies very well when compared to how physical confrontations manifest in the real world. Afterall, part of the comcept of BRP and FRPG's in general is to determine (and I say this in the broadest of terms) how " reality" is reenacted through the use of the games mechanics and rules.So, if I'm right ( and i believe I am) then maybe the idea of combat rounds are tweleve seconds long should be corrected for future publications.

Back when RQ/BRP was first on the scene it was regarded as a bit weird as the combat round was so short (D&D was a 1 minute round, Traveller was using 15 seconds IIRC). I first encountered six second combat rounds in FGU's Space Opera I think, and like a lot of the details in that much maligned game, I think they make a lot of sense - but it really doesn't bother me that much..

Actually, I believe the idea of the six second melee round might of originated from the Arduin System as it's mentiond in the first rules book which was printed back in '77.

Edited by mrk
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I say change it if you'd like.

Given carte blanche I'd have shortened the combat round to three seconds and completely done away with Strike Ranks... but I was trying to maintain the integrity of the system.

The 12-second combat round really breaks down applied to anything beyond melee combat (where you can use the D&D handwave of "there's a lot more going on than just a single attack"), and is utter abstraction when dealing with firearms.

When working on the firearms tables, I called my former army/cop friend James, and asked "Imagine you've got a fully loaded Glock, and have it pointed at a target. How many shots could you get off in a 12-second period?" His answer was: "Probably all of them, and I'd be already ejecting the clip and reaching for my spare." I can only imagine how much faster an energy weapon with no internal moving parts might be.

Faced with two paths:

1. Compatibility with previous rules sets and more-or-less utter abstraction

or

2. Abandon all backwards compatibility and strive for utter realism, which would eventually require changing every system in the game at some level

I picked path 1.

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Overall, six seconds in probably more realistic, but one thing keeps me in check on this.

Everything shown in the vids is either brawls, or martial artists in sparring situations. Presumably with opponents knowing each other and knowing something of the capability of their opponents, and with little chance of serious injury or death ensuing. Would people who didn't know the other, or who didn't have a clue as to the style of their opponent really react in such a manner?

To me, this video looks a bit more realistic. Still not necessarily a full 12 seconds, but certainly with much longer pauses between strikes (looking for an opening?)

Now, as to Jasons army/cop friend, an importation and modification of the shooting rules from Ringworld, which stated that you could shoot on each impluse after your initial dex rank.

SDLeary

Optional Rule Follows...

Firearms (Optional)

Most modern firearms are capable of fire at much higher rates than muscle powered missile weapons or early single shot firearms. In order to simulate this you might want to use the following.

Mulit-Barrel,Semi-Auto, and Automatic firearms in burst operation are initially shot at the characters DEX rank (or Strike Rank), and my be fired on each subsequent DEX rank (or strike rank) as long as all shots are at the same target and the weapon still has ammunition. If the target changes, they must wait till their next normal action (DEX rank or Strike Rank). Each shot or burst after the first incurs a penalty of -15% (cumulative) to the chance to hit. If at any point the weapon runs out of ammunition and needs to be reloaded, the target is changed, or the end of the Combat Round is reached, the sequence is broken and the character resumes the normal combat sequence.

Bolt Action and Lever Action firearms with internal magazines may shoot at the characters DEX rank (or Strike Rank), then again on the characters DEX rank -10 (or DEX SR + 3 + DEX SR if using Strike Ranks) as long as all shots are at the same target and the weapon still has ammunition. Each shot after the first incurs a penalty of -20% (cumulative) to the chance to hit. If at any point the weapon runs out of ammunition and needs to be reloaded, the target is changed, or the end of the Combat Round is reached, the sequence is broken and the character resumes the normal combat sequence.

Single Shot and Muzzle Loading firearms always shoot at their listed Attk value as the reload sequence is long enough and visual enough to disrupt any reasonable chance of being able to recover without having to reacquire the target.

For those who wish to lay down suppressive fire or simply shoot without aiming, please consult the Volley Fire spot rule.

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I say change it if you'd like.

Given carte blanche I'd have shortened the combat round to three seconds and completely done away with Strike Ranks... but I was trying to maintain the integrity of the system. .

Then maybe there should be two or three varations of what a combat round exactly is depending on the situation. A combat round with two swordsmen fighting one on one is a lot different then a FBI Agent on the hunt for a suspected Serial Killer who's hiding somewhere inside a house.

Everything shown in the vids is either brawls, or martial artists in sparring situations. Presumably with opponents knowing each other and knowing something of the capability of their opponents, and with little chance of serious injury or death ensuing. Would people who didn't know the other, or who didn't have a clue as to the style of their opponent really react in such a manner? To me, this video looks a bit more realistic. Still not necessarily a full 12 seconds, but certainly with much longer pauses between strikes (looking for an opening?)

Wit the exception of the documentary. All those clips are people are performing at the best of their abilities at tha given moment. Even the clip of Roy Jones Jr clip, he' still hitting his opponent as full contact though it's a sparing session( which so happen was videotaped at the time when he was traning to take on the world heavyweight champion) However, the Wing Chun vs Street Fighter clip is an actual full-out brawl and literally lasts about six seconds before the guy's taken to the floor and still dosen't stop as the other fighter contunies to stomp his opponent on the floor ( just like the old Engish pugist Lenny McLean).

To me, this video looks a bit more realistic. Still not necessarily a full 12 seconds, but certainly with much longer pauses between strikes (looking for an opening?)

I'm sorry for busting on ya here :), but that clip is not what I would consider a full-out match. It's more of a controlled sparring session with each guy trying to improve on what skills they already have . Personally, I think these's clips are a better example of higher skilled practitioners sparring at full contact speed without trying to main one another.

Edited by mrk
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I'm sorry for busting on ya here :), but that clip is not what I would consider a full-out match. It's more of a controlled sparring session with each guy trying to improve the skills they already have . Personally, I think these's clips are a better example of two opponents sparring at full contact speed without trying to main one another.

No, not a full out match, but people of differing schools/styles who appear to have not sparred much if at all before, and thus don't know the others capabilities. Still no chance of serious injury or death, and I have to imagine that if their weapons were real that their dance between strikes would have been longer. Similar to the third video you listed... the Kendo vs Escrima.

The first I've seen before, again a sparring match with people apparently of the same art/school, equipped the same, probably sparred before and have a decent understanding of the others capabilities.

The second... well that looks like me and my friends back in High School when we were playing with Shinai. ;-)

I'm not saying that 6 seconds in unreasonable for a combat round, but I can see why it might be as much as 12 seconds as well. Especially if the combatants are not familiar, with all the dancing and ranging taps to weapons and shields between actual strikes, and with the real stakes of serious injury or death ensuing.

SDLeary

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I have no such problems with changing it or any rule. I'm simply stating that I don't think this statement in the rules applies very well when compared to how physical confrontations manifest in the real world. Afterall, part of the comcept of BRP and FRPG's in general is to determine (and I say this in the broadest of terms) how " reality" is reinacted through the use of the games mechanics and rules.So, if I'm right ( and i believe I am) then maybe the idea of combat rounds are tweleve seconds long, should be corrected for future publications.

Actually, I believe the idea of the six second melee round might of originated from the Arduin System as it's mentiond in the first rules book which was printed back in '77.

The original 12 sec combat round in RQ was used with advice from people who also had experience similar to yours...

I think it is personal prefference.

I like 12 sec rounds and from the little experience I've had they seem to fit.

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The second... well that looks like me and my friends back in High School when we were playing with Shinai.

Those Russian guys are part of a Eatern European Renaissance Society and perform dualing exibitions at fairs. I wouldn't go so far to compare them to some of the other people I've presented, but they do have some skill and they are going at it at a fairly high rate. I've trained a bit with a jo staff and I can tell you holding onto a stick while someone is banging on it from the other end is a real strain as you feel the shock run up your wrist and arms. In fact, it f-----g hurts like hell!

I'm not saying that 6 seconds in unreasonable for a combat round' date=' but I can see why it might be as much as 12 seconds as well. Especially if the combatants are not familiar, with all the dancing and ranging taps to weapons and shields between actual strikes, and with the real stakes of serious injury or death ensuing. [/quote']

Dosen't mater if your stepping in the ring with Muhammad Ali or Don Knotts, twelve seconds is just way to long as so much can happen even in one. You could put two 12 year old girls in the ring and let them pillow fight and their easily going to get two or three strikes on one another within 6 seconds. In fact here's a perfectly good example of such combatants:

And this is what someone could do to you in a little more then a millisecond:

Edited by mrk
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Well, I don't want to insult any of the original creators of RQ, but I do feel they may of had a narrow point of view do to their own experiences and training. Anyway, just like I mentioned above, so much goes on in six seconds between two people let alone one. The average beginning Character in RQ/RPG get's one attack per combat round--that's one strike for every 12 seconds which in real time is BEYOND slow. If you had to make a comparison between reality and what BRP dictates is the length of a melee round, two teenage girls having a pillow fight on youtube are six times faster then a pair of seasoned Warriors from Dragon Pass fighting it out to the death. Sad but true if you believe the rules.

The original 12 sec combat round in RQ was used with advice from people who also had experience similar to yours...

I think it is personal prefference.

I like 12 sec rounds and from the little experience I've had they seem to fit.

Edited by mrk
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Thanks for posting these videos. I agree the 12 second rule is too long but was in its time a lot more realistic than the original D&D combat round. My memory is hazy, but wasn't that a full minute?

Ruling that a round is anything that permits everyone to take an action is what I've worked with for years and Jason did right by preserving the 12 second rule on paper, but perhaps a future edition should note clarify that this is only a guideline?

Off topic: I was a little troubled by the kendo vs. eskrima video. I think there is always something a little off when you have practice weapons try to simulate what would happen in real life.

If the fellow were wielding a katana with any real zest or tried anything but an overhead (which may be a bias of kendo--I don't know the sport very well), the eskrimador would be moving A LOT more to keep the hell out of the way of the katana. He never seemed to take the kendo player seriously because he'd just time the overhead strike. With double baston/sticks, he probably would be better off tying up the weapon arm, but I notice that no standing grappling was allowed (unfair to the kendo practicioner unless he has some actual jujutsu training). If the eskrimador were wielding two bolos (similar to machetes), well that would be ugly and unwieldy. I've seen it done in shadowboxing/demos, but it never looks right with blades. They were never designed for dual wield because don't have the right balance. The eskrimador should've gone in with espada y daga (sword and dagger) or at least rattan stick and a wooden dagger/rubber knife. To make it fun, throw in no masks or pads and just safety glasses. I think you'd get a more realistic result and a more interesting match.

Edited by FunGuyFromYuggoth

Roll D100 and let the percentiles sort them out.

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Thanks for posting these videos. I agree the 12 second rule is too long but was in its time a lot more realistic than the original D&D combat round. My memory is hazy, but wasn't that a full minute?

Was that listed in the very first edition back in 73? Either way, you can't fault Gygax and Arneson too much as they were working of what they knew from Wargames at the time.

Ruling that a round is anything that permits everyone to take an action is what I've worked with for years and Jason did right by preserving the 12 second rule on paper, but perhaps a future edition should note clarify that this is only a guideline?

I don't fault Jason in the slightest and support him 99.99%:D. But yeah, something dose need to be clarified in the next edition.

Off topic: I was a little troubled by the kendo vs. eskrima video. I think there is always something a little off when you have practice weapons try to simulate what would happen in real life.

Tournament fighting is a lot different then full contact as its more about getting the point then trying to knock someone out( although it dose happen). They also have to adhere to the sponcers rules or they're liable to be disqualified. That's why nobody is throwing their weapons at one another or targeting the groin.

If the eskrimador were wielding two bolos (similar to machetes), well that would be ugly and unwieldy. I've seen it done in shadowboxing/demos, but it never looks right with blades. They were never designed for dual wield because don't have the right balance. The eskrimador should've gone in with espada y daga (sword and dagger) or at least rattan stick and a wooden dagger/rubber knife.

Don't jude a book by it's cover:) .Eskrima/Kali is a VERY deadly martial art and it's style can be applied to many types of weapons; dosen't matter if it's a buttery knife or a broom handle. Same goes for the Kendo Swordsman, who if he had Katana in his hands could easly cut through those sticks like a strand of spaghetti. Never pass judgement on the style, but only the man who uses it.

If you want to see some real hardcore freestyle stick fighting. Check out the videos for the DogBrothers on youtube. Even the people who sponcer Ultimate Fighting turned them down because they thought it was too dangerous :eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jz-iGAJhZ6c

Edited by mrk
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The average beginning Character in RQ/RPG get's one attack per combat round--that's one strike for every 12 seconds which in real time is BEYOND slow. QUOTE]

In RQ / Burp a strike is not one swing of the sword it includes fients, dancing around and all that other crap.

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Feints, footwork, bobbing and weaving is all part of the principles of fighting, but none of it is considerd an actual physical attack. A fenit could be used to "psych" your opponent into lowering his left arm, but it's the right cross that's going to actually knock him out...BURP:D

In RQ / Burp a strike is not one swing of the sword it includes fients, dancing around and all that other crap.
Edited by mrk
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When working on the firearms tables, I called my former army/cop friend James, and asked "Imagine you've got a fully loaded Glock, and have it pointed at a target. How many shots could you get off in a 12-second period?" His answer was: "Probably all of them, and I'd be already ejecting the clip and reaching for my spare." I can only imagine how much faster an energy weapon with no internal moving parts might be.

Though its to be noted that by the statistics that exist, in a real combat situation he'd probably miss with most of them (and that's assuming he's a pretty good shot); so the question you have to ask is that how many shots in combat make sense given the relatively high hit chances involved?

That doesn't mean that a 12-second round isn't overly long, because it is, but the real truth is to represent real rates of fire, you also have to seriously penalize hit chances in actual combat (as compared to shooting at the range) to represent them, because an incredible amount of ammo goes into anything but the opponent in most firefights, even for the most experienced shooters.

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I do also want to note that BRP (and honestly, most game) have a problem in that there's no reason mechanically to have the pauses that almost alway occur in the middle of most combats; one of the GURPS designers noted this problem in GURPS (where its very pronounced--things resolve incredibly faster than _most_ real world fights of any nature (note the emphasis here)). What you usually get in reality is bursts of activity followed by pauses as people reassess and get their psychological footing, bursts of activity, rinse, repeat.

Its just hard to implement that mechanically, but if you don't, you can end up with rounds that are unrealistically _fast_.

Edited by Nightshade
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I always prefer to go with the idea of:

How long is a round?

As long as it needs to be.

Well, what about magic lasting so many rounds? How long would that spell last outside of combat if you just wave off time rules?

*Shrug* As long as the GM says it does.

But then the GM can rip you off!!

That's not really anything he couldn't do already. If he's a jerk, he'll rip you off. If he's a decent GM, he'll have decent reasoning and be agreeable.

"Men of broader intellect know that there is no sharp distinction betwixt the real and the unreal..."

- H.P. Lovecraft

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I always prefer to go with the idea of:

How long is a round?

As long as it needs to be.

Well, what about magic lasting so many rounds? How long would that spell last outside of combat if you just wave off time rules?

*Shrug* As long as the GM says it does.

This shoots the ability to make plans using expected duration in the foot way too much for me. Magic of unpredictable duration may be a virtue to some people, but certainly not to everyone.

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I have to seriously question whether unpredictable duration magic pleases most people, however; in particular, it seems to make most longer duration spells of questionable value.

I think you're reading into my words a bit too deeply. 15 minute spells still last 15 minutes, but combat round spells last however long the combat round has to last.

Since most spells are determined per combat round, I see very little difficulty and very few issues with running time a bit more narratively.

"Men of broader intellect know that there is no sharp distinction betwixt the real and the unreal..."

- H.P. Lovecraft

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Don't jude a book by it's cover:) .Eskrima/Kali is a VERY deadly martial art and it's style can be applied to many types of weapons; dosen't matter if it's a buttery knife or a broom handle. Same goes for the Kendo Swordsman, who if he had Katana in his hands could easly cut through those sticks like a strand of spaghetti. Never pass judgement on the style, but only the man who uses it.

A misunderstanding then, speaking as someone who's practiced kali for a long time, not passing judgement on the art :), but at the rules in that video seem to heavily favor the eskrimador and eliminate the threat of a real steel katana wielded with banzai enthusiasm--instead of trying to whack the other fellow like an old lady with an umbrella. Heck, I knew if somebody with skill came at me with a katana and I only had doble baston, I'd be worried and not trying anything as foolish as an x-block as shown in the video. :eek: The kinetic energy of the blow from a longsword held two handed is enough to crash past two sticks or blades and because a real blade is going to cut down on your head/face and/or shoulders--well it's just not a good idea, nor does it represent either art very well. He does so at least three times (time frames :08, :22, and 1:43). They aren't very helpful in illustrating your point.

My former instructor was a student of the man who taught the Dog Brothers (Guro Inosanto). They used to hold tournaments at a park near where I grew up, so I know them well and have a couple of their old instructionals on VHS (before "the Internets"). To their credit, there is recognition that what they do is stickfighting and not swordfighting. I certainly do like them more than the heavily padded tournaments that encourage people wading in without regard--like Bruce Lee's old criticism of point fighting that crept into sport karate. My bottom line is that the video of eskrima versus kendo doesn't support your argument or otherwise "make the cut" because they're not behaving the way one would behave if the blades were live. It's two guys with sticks exploring angles of attack but not behaving particularly consistently because the eskrimador is in stickfighting mode and the kendo player is still playing within the rules of kendo. A more interesting match might be videotaping an earnest kenjutsu player with a hardwood bokken versus an eskrimador with a training espada y daga (sword and knife). Allow throws, trips, kicks, etc. that you'd see on the battlefield. Get a sharp eyed ref and the first to score a "kill shot" wins. Not real, but real-er.

:focus:Sorry to derail.

Was that listed in the very first edition back in 73? Either way, you can't fault Gygax and Arneson too much as they were working of what they knew from Wargames at the time.

You asked an interesting question because I never really put much stock into the number of seconds, minutes, etc. in combat it took except when spellcasting was involved. I agree that it could be a shorter number, but I'm less interested in pinning it down to an exact number. By that point, I just want to know how many arrows or bullets my players can put downrange at the deranged high priest. >:-> If you use SR, there are spell SR's from RuneQuest you can employ, but using the optional rules for Strike Ranks conflicts directly with the rules for Weapon Rate of Fire and Skills Over 100%. Under the header "Multiple Attacks and Strike Ranks" on page 201, it states "it is not recommended to combine them in any fashion."

IIRC, I believe the one minute combat round made it into 2nd edition AD&D, which was in 1995. That's almost twenty years after RQ/BRP and more than two decades after Gygax and Arneson thought it'd be a neat idea to roleplay those metal figures. :confused: So yeah, I do kinda fault Gygax because he should've known better when he broke it down into segments, rounds, and turns years later in AD&D (early 1980s). TSR went on and kept it as a rule that continued until the mid-1990s. Not that everybody bought it. Much later, some people have tried to dissect what a round really is in later editions of D&D. See here.

I believe that 4th edition did away with the time frame completely. Segments, rounds, and turns seem to be a thing of the hoary past in D&Dland.

In any case, I think a round should last as long as you need for it to last in Basic Roleplaying, but for the purposes of describing how much ground you can cover before actions happen at distance, you may want to see how shortening it could affect/distort the Movement Rate.

Edited by FunGuyFromYuggoth

Roll D100 and let the percentiles sort them out.

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