Who broke Hippoi and why?

[Pentallion]

Hippoi/Gamara had his(her) wings and fangs shorn.  Then Elmal(Yelmalio?) took it in and named it horse.  Thus began the horse cultures.  Hippogriffs were later reborn (how?) and hate Griffins for their betrayal, suggesting, perhaps, that Yelm had a hand in the torture of Gamara.

But search as I may, I can find nothing about how/why Hippoi was so mistreated.

I could use that myth right about now or the story of how Hippogriff was reborn.  This is all I could find:

Quote

In the Golden Age, Hippogriff was one of many joyful aerial creatures. The
airs were full of beautiful flying plants, animals, and people, but the Gods
War destroyed most of them. The griffins, former friends, destroyed the hippogriffs
in an ambush. They found themselves in the Spirit World, where
Source and Master, their own great spirit, comforted them and showed
them the way back to the world of life. They now war against the treacherous
griffins, with fights inevitable if they ever meet. - Anaxial's Roster

 

Edited October 9, 2017 by Pentallion

[Yelm's Light]

Unless it's been Gregged, Zorak Zoran tore off Hippogriff's 'golden wings.'  ("The Tale of the Horse", WF 11, p. 26, reprinted in Wyrms Footprints, p. 61).  There doesn't seem to be much in the way of motivation, but then, why would the god of hate need a reason other than that she was on the opposing side?  Just one of several humiliations visited on her by opponents, although her confrontation with ZZ isn't explicitly described as a battle, where those with Storm Bull (her fangs) and Maran Gor (her claws and broken legs) are.

(Btw, Hippogriff was her original name, until Hyalor renamed her Hippoi, or horse, and 'broke' her.)

There's a little bit more info in that piece (it's a single-column box in Wyrms Footprints), but there's not much about motivation or the rebirth, other than that

Quote

... When the sun rose again [at the end of the Great Darkness] Hyalor was ready to accept him, having survived the Darkness through great faith and courage.  The horse, already used to slavery, leapt to meet her old master.  The pair together received great bounty in the first years, and their herds and numbers increased greatly with the Blessings of Yelm. ...

(same reference)

[Pentallion]

Thanks, I don't have any of the WF's.  That will help greatly.  Instead of facing a demon griffin in Lunar Hell, my player will face a ZZ.  Alas, that means no lunar hell, so I have more work ahead of me, I can't just use SKoH's for my stations.  But my premise is her black horse demon steed already has its fangs and claws back so if she can get the wings back, she can return from Hell with her Black Horse transformed into a hippogriff.  Now I just need to make up the rebirth myth Source and Master taught the first hippogriffs to return to the mortal world.  Since the player is a Lunar, her moon rune might come in handy there.

[David Scott]

There's a few more references, but this one is the most interesting as it has King Hippogriff:

Sartar KoH, p151:

Quote

In the Darkness a new beast came to Orlanth’s tula wounded and suffering. None of the thanes present recognized it. But Elmal, who had been with the Fire Tribe, recognized King Hippogriff with his wings torn off, his claws cut off and his fangs ripped from his mouth.

 

[Pentallion]

Maybe get the wings from ZZ and take them to Gamara in lunar hell.  Sounds like a plan.

[David Scott]

43 minutes ago, Pentallion said:

Maybe get the wings from ZZ and take them to Gamara in lunar hell.  Sounds like a plan.

Eaten long ago - a bit like chicken wings but bigger. You need to create a horse sized ritual pair from spun gold and feathers, that will do. Perhaps the wing bones exist in ZZ's trophy room...

 

[Pentallion]

Then regrow limbs on Gamara will have to suffice.

[jajagappa]

20 minutes ago, Pentallion said:

Then regrow limbs on Gamara will have to suffice.

Probably have to break Gamara out of Hell first and bring her back to the world of the living.  Otherwise Regrow Limbs will likely just regrow dead skeletal wings.  Or the attempt will attract those who will simply break off and devour the wings again.  Gamara is one of the eternally suffering, so I'm sure a good demon or two around to ensure she stays that way.

[soltakss]

13 hours ago, Pentallion said:

Hippoi/Gamara had his(her) wings and fangs shorn.  Then Elmal(Yelmalio?) took it in and named it horse.  Thus began the horse cultures.  Hippogriffs were later reborn (how?) and hate Griffins for their betrayal, suggesting, perhaps, that Yelm had a hand in the torture of Gamara.

 

I had forgotten that Gamara/hippogriff was Yelm''s Steed before he rode Grandather Griffin, perhaps the betrayal was simply changing Steed. 

Hippogriffs were reborn, probably through HeroQuesting. The EWF brought back a lot of mythic beasts, so it was probably done then, maybe during the time of the Golden Dragon Emperor, when they messed around with Dara Happan Myths .

 

[Pentallion]

6 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Probably have to break Gamara out of Hell first and bring her back to the world of the living.  Otherwise Regrow Limbs will likely just regrow dead skeletal wings.  Or the attempt will attract those who will simply break off and devour the wings again.  Gamara is one of the eternally suffering, so I'm sure a good demon or two around to ensure she stays that way.

Well, the idea is she gives Gamara/Hippogriff back her wings and that's how she gets out of hell.  Which is why I'm trying to learn how the hippogriffs returned.  And I agree with soltakss, it was probably something the EWF did.  Unfortunately, the PC was taken involuntarily to hell on her demon steed, while unconcious.  So she didn't happen to bring a fancy golden wove set of wings.

I see how they brought Hofstarings hands back and then he leaped out of hell, so the same idea means bring Gamara's wings back.  I suppose get the wingbones from ZZ and put them back on.  Once Hofstarings hands were put on his stumps, they magically reattached themselves.  I could see placing the wing bones on her, being as she's a God of Hippogriffs and Hofstaring was just a Hero, that she could magically sprout full blown wings again.

At some point, you just have to say mythical enough, the game must go on.

[Joerg]

You could always ask the Char-un, who succeeded in breeding a winged mare (and a carnivorous stallion). It isn't quite clear what their horse goddess was, though, but the chances are high that their origin has some connection to Nivorah.

I don't think that Yelm ever had the need for a steed or a draught beast - he had his throne, and once he had it, he never left it. Kargzant is the sun horse, not a rider - at best the mythical union of horse, rider, and sun. Reladivus may be just another name for this deity.

Hippogriff was the steed of Yamsur. The best known fact about Yamsur is that he was slain by Chaos at Earthfall, and that we are lucky that we remember his name at all; most of his myth and history was destroyed when he died. HIs folk may easily have been remnants of the Ratite Empire that we see prior to better known inhabitants of the Northeast, somewhat remembered in Rinliddi.

The original steed provided at the arming of Murharzarm was an augner, the ratite bird of Rinliddi. But then Murharzarm's main job was to have his butt keep the throne from cooling, too, rather than moving it into any kind of saddle. A throne-mounted howda or palanquin carried by gazzam might have been a respectable alternative to the throne in Raibanth, but that's about it.

[soltakss]

4 hours ago, Pentallion said:

Well, the idea is she gives Gamara/Hippogriff back her wings and that's how she gets out of hell.  Which is why I'm trying to learn how the hippogriffs returned.  And I agree with soltakss, it was probably something the EWF did.  Unfortunately, the PC was taken involuntarily to hell on her demon steed, while unconcious.  So she didn't happen to bring a fancy golden wove set of wings.

I see how they brought Hofstarings hands back and then he leaped out of hell, so the same idea means bring Gamara's wings back.  I suppose get the wingbones from ZZ and put them back on.  Once Hofstarings hands were put on his stumps, they magically reattached themselves.  I could see placing the wing bones on her, being as she's a God of Hippogriffs and Hofstaring was just a Hero, that she could magically sprout full blown wings again.

At some point, you just have to say mythical enough, the game must go on.

Ah, now I see the context, I thought it was a mythical question rather than a practical one.

Several solutions spring to mind:

• Quest for Hippogriff's wings and gain the ability to fly (Hard)
• Re-Enact the lost EWF quest to create Hippogriffs (Hard)
• Find a demon, rip its wings off and give it to the demon steed (Easier)

[g33k]

4 hours ago, soltakss said:

Ah, now I see the context, I thought it was a mythical question rather than a practical one.

Several solutions spring to mind:

• Quest for Hippogriff's wings and gain the ability to fly (Hard)
• Re-Enact the lost EWF quest to create Hippogriffs (Hard)
• Find a demon, rip its wings off and give it to the demon steed (Easier)

Dunno 'bout that last ...  Demon-Steed + Demon-wings = still a demon AFAICS.  Sure, it maybe a somewhat hippogriff-shaped demon; but it's not an actual hippogriff (let alone Hippogriff reborn).  YGMV.

But it may just be in-keeping with the flavor of the campaign to go a-Heroquesting and come back with a hippogriff-shaped demon... 

[Joerg]

23 hours ago, Pentallion said:

Thanks, I don't have any of the WF's.  That will help greatly.  Instead of facing a demon griffin in Lunar Hell, my player will face a ZZ.  Alas, that means no lunar hell, so I have more work ahead of me, I can't just use SKoH's for my stations.  But my premise is her black horse demon steed already has its fangs and claws back so if she can get the wings back, she can return from Hell with her Black Horse transformed into a hippogriff.  Now I just need to make up the rebirth myth Source and Master taught the first hippogriffs to return to the mortal world.  Since the player is a Lunar, her moon rune might come in handy there.

When you say black horse demon steed, are you talking about one of Ethilrist's demon horses?

They are hell creatures, not really related to any regular or sun horses, and only share the general body plan, excepting the dentition. If you want to add wings to them, bat-like or draconic wings might be easier than the feathered wings of a sky creature. Insect wings might also be elementally appropriate, but would look extremely silly.

Ethilrists demon steeds aren't descended from either Gamara or Hippoi, and Grazers and Pentans regard them as evil and a perversion of what they hold holy about their horses. To think of a parallel, if you wanted to recreate a centaur, you wouldn't use a dark troll for the humanoid part either, but a regular human, preferably one of those horse worshipers who claim that they are the human descendants of a horse deity or spirit.

The Middle Sea Empire from the Stafford Library has a short section of a visit to the EWF during its draconic heyday, and that text mentions how sheep and cattle have taken on draconic characteristics and features in the heartlands of the EWF near Dragon's Eye. If the re-creation of the hippogriff was a successful EWF experiment, then draconic mysticism might help your demon steed to achieve wings. Maybe it should start following the Path of Immanent Mastery - Ethilrist's demon steeds are sapient and should able to follow a mystic's teachings. Eastern mystics have taught terrible antigods and elemental outsiders how to fit into their system, so why not a demon steed? A winged dragon horse definitley would be a cool steed.

Attaining bat wings would be more appropriate for an Underworld entity, but the Blue Moon bat-winged trolls Greg had us play at Tentacles when HeroQuest 1 just had replaced Hero Wars sadly aren't mentioned in the Guide. There was one six-limbed type (arms, legs, bat wings) which may have been a result of applying EWF magics, and an older four-limbed type with wings instead of arms. I hope these will return when we get an in-depth treatment of the uz. Anyway, if the uz managed to use a heroquest to alter one of their clans into balrog-like bat-winged flyers worshiping the bat goddess of the Blue Moon Plateau and Rinliddi, a horse-shaped demon hero might be able to do the same for its own kind.

If the player is a lunar, she might be able to access the Blue Moon Plateau and contact the Bat Goddess.

[Joerg]

23 hours ago, Pentallion said:

Thanks, I don't have any of the WF's.  That will help greatly.  Instead of facing a demon griffin in Lunar Hell, my player will face a ZZ.  Alas, that means no lunar hell, so I have more work ahead of me, I can't just use SKoH's for my stations.  But my premise is her black horse demon steed already has its fangs and claws back so if she can get the wings back, she can return from Hell with her Black Horse transformed into a hippogriff.  Now I just need to make up the rebirth myth Source and Master taught the first hippogriffs to return to the mortal world.  Since the player is a Lunar, her moon rune might come in handy there.

When you say black horse demon steed, are you talking about one of Ethilrist's demon horses?

They are hell creatures, not really related to any regular or sun horses, and only share the general body plan, excepting the dentition. If you want to add wings to them, bat-like or draconic wings might be easier than the feathered wings of a sky creature. Insect wings might also be elementally appropriate, but would look extremely silly.

Ethilrists demon steeds aren't descended from either Gamara or Hippoi, and Grazers and Pentans regard them as evil and a perversion of what they hold holy about their horses. To think of a parallel, if you wanted to recreate a centaur, you wouldn't use a dark troll for the humanoid part either, but a regular human, preferably one of those horse worshipers who claim that they are the human descendants of a horse deity or spirit.

The Middle Sea Empire from the Stafford Library has a short section of a visit to the EWF during its draconic heyday, and that text mentions how sheep and cattle have taken on draconic characteristics and features in the heartlands of the EWF near Dragon's Eye. If the re-creation of the hippogriff was a successful EWF experiment, then draconic mysticism might help your demon steed to achieve wings. Maybe it should start following the Path of Immanent Mastery - Ethilrist's demon steeds are sapient and should able to follow a mystic's teachings. Eastern mystics have taught terrible antigods and elemental outsiders how to fit into their system, so why not a demon steed? A winged dragon horse definitley would be a cool steed.

Attaining bat wings would be more appropriate for an Underworld entity, but the Blue Moon bat-winged trolls Greg had us play at Tentacles when HeroQuest 1 just had replaced Hero Wars sadly aren't mentioned in the Guide. There was one six-limbed type (arms, legs, bat wings) which may have been a result of applying EWF magics, and an older four-limbed type with wings instead of arms. I hope these will return when we get an in-depth treatment of the uz. Anyway, if the uz managed to use a heroquest to alter one of their clans into balrog-like bat-winged flyers worshiping the bat goddess of the Blue Moon Plateau and Rinliddi, a horse-shaped demon hero might be able to do the same for its own kind.

If the player is a lunar, she might be able to access the Blue Moon Plateau and contact the Bat Goddess.

[Pentallion]

You are mistaken - possibly Gregged - about the Demon steeds.  He raided them from Yelm's pasture in Hell.  His herd represents but a fraction of what Yelm still keeps.  They followed Yelm to Hell and their existence in hell changed them, but they are horses and descended from Hippogriff.

Per Jeff Richards, this is the Demon Steed that we will see in RQG:

Quote

The Black Horses of the Black Horse Troop were taken from the herds started when the Sun was a resident of Hell. The conditions of Hell made for a very different breed of horse, to the extent that they are carnivorous and capable of fighting with bite and claw like a cat. They are also heavily armored naturally and can see in the dark like Trolls. A new Black Horse is not foaled until one has died, for only a set number of Black Horse spirits, 2600 to be exact, were taken from Hell.

My PC rides one of Yelm's demon steeds, not one of Ethilrist.  Ethilrist would be most displeased to have her summon one of his away.

Edited October 10, 2017 by Pentallion

[jajagappa]

16 hours ago, Pentallion said:

So she didn't happen to bring a fancy golden wove set of wings.

Lots of lost things in Asrelia's Hut/Cavern too, particularly in the Dancing Jar. 

11 hours ago, soltakss said:

Find a demon, rip its wings off and give it to the demon steed (Easier)

Yes, there should definitely be demons around.  Of course, it may not exactly enjoy having its wings ripped off...  And the wings might be Giant Fly wings, or Bat wings, or even Angelic wings that it gained (or perhaps it's even a Fallen Angel!) ...  But agree that it is the "Easier" solution.

4 hours ago, Pentallion said:

My PC rides one of Yelm's demon steeds

Yes, makes sense.  Of course, another option is to take the wings from Gold-Gryphon, who stands guard at Yelm's Palace in Hell.  After all, he was no friend of Hippogriff.

[Pentallion]

Well, as of tonight she's stolen the bones of Gamara's wings from ZZ's lair of debris (more fitting in my mind than trophy room).  Now she's off to complete the quest.

Thank you all for all the great information you emparted.