Androgeous

[Pentallion]

We all know about her gender roles and I've heard the myth of how he was the lone survivor from before men and women were separated during the Green Age.  But other than that, all that's really known about her was that he's one of only three "SuperHeroes" in the board game.  Someone as powerful and influential as Harrek and Jar-Eel.  Yet after 40 years since the game came out, what is really known about her?  What are his motives?  What is her role in the Hero Wars?  How important is he?

Edited November 3, 2017 by Pentallion

[jajagappa]

40 minutes ago, Pentallion said:

We all know about her gender roles and I've heard the myth of how he was the lone survivor

Sounds like you mean Androgeus.

there's a somewhat similar discussion/responses here: http://www.glorantha.com/forums/topic/androgeus/ 

I've copied some of my reply there here for easier reference.  The reference to her children is in Wyrms Footprints (article on the Half-bird).

“Androgeus came to Glorantha during the Great Darkness when the world was turned upside down and he did her best to turn the world from Darkness, using methods of war and love to achieve her ends. His travels covered three continents, and she even walked the upper slopes of the Spike before it crumbled into sand and pearls. During the God Time, he mothered five children and fathered four, and managed to save thousands of mortals from Death.”

Some of the children are noted: “Her children are too many to name, but five are well-known: The Preserver, the Twisted Horse, Goldtooth, Wily Joker, and Yellow Bear. The agonies which they inflicted upon mortals since the Dawn are hideous and innumerable.”

Some slight contradictions as to whether there are nine children or ‘too many to name’, but I don’t think ‘unclean’ here means untouchables. I think it’s more like horrors unleashed upon the world, as the children’s names suggest. The Vadeli have different origin and are noted in the Revealed Mythologies work. I think largely they are left to the minds of the GM to create at this point in whatever form suits their needs. Maybe they are horrible yellow furred bears with a taste for human flesh? Maybe gold-toothed ‘demons’?

Where do they exist? I’d say you can find descendants in Genertela, Pamaltela, and either Jrustela or the East Isles (remnant of Vithela). Probably drawn to places of corruption and horror like Dorastor or the Forest of Disease in Laskal or they mix in with the Andins of the East Isles.

An old email thread at https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/WorldofGlorantha/conversations/topics/18387 written by Sandy Peterson years ago commented:
“She has existed since the Godtime and wanders about Glorantha. In a private conversation with Greg, he said that in his opinion Androgeus only wandered through Dragon Pass once during the Hero Wars (there is a 3-player scenario in which Androgeus takes part). Most of Androgeus’s important activities take place in Fronela, which doesn’t mean that’s where he originated. It’s possible that she was trapped by the Ban, and only escaped recently when it was lifted. Thus the world got to have a few centuries free from this particular superhero.”

Also, Sandy Petersen has linked the varied superheroes to specific runes.  IIRC, Androgeus is associated to the Man Rune (though I can't currently find the reference).  Maybe it's in the Forgotten Secrets chapbook published by the Kraken?

In another Glorantha Digest post, Sandy noted:  https://glorantha.steff.in/digests/GloranthaDigest/vol01/1751.html 

"ANDROGEUS 

Everything I say about Androgeus might be wrong, but it is what I believe, and what other RQers, possibly including Greg, believed ten-fifteen years back.  Androgeus in the Gods Age was a vastly powerful being, a representation of one of the important Cosmic Truths, like unto the inhabitants of the Celestial Court, or the original Elementals. Originally, he was centered, a solid block of element, personality, and sex. But as time went on various entities (not excluding herself) were able to find power in separating his parts, dividing her essential two natures further and further apart, until his nature resembled two huge weights out on the ends of a seesaw. In addition, her strength and magic might was tapped by other beings, or wasted in attempts to save himself, until she gradually devolved into the degenerate state he now holds. Androgeus, though of superhero status, is the _weakest_ she has ever been. What does the future hold for him? Nothing good, I'm sure."

[scott-martin]

18 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Sandy Petersen has linked the varied superheroes to specific runes. 

Androgeus may get a rune in Forgotten Secrets (don't recall) but part of Sandy's work on her ended up pointing away from superhero status toward something stranger. Supposedly Garangordos was the Man at one point. In any event the portfolio of love and war is a fairly common Greg trope but it's tempting to look for connections to the god of Trowjang.

Bringing in Vadel is exciting. As a child I read the "five and four" detail as poetic license but naturally now I see hints of primeval tribes of Danmalastan everywhere in those numbers -- he may not be Malkion and she may not be his wives but both stories can be true in exotic corners of the mythic West. The "five" hideous ones may reflect orthodox opinions on the Vadelite caste founders (we know their mother from archaic texts but I don't recall hearing about their father; "Vadela" may be another name for Androgeus-as-a-woman) or (less likely) native Vadelite opinions on the sons of Malkion (Androgeus-as-a-man).

[metcalph]

8 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Some of the children are noted: “Her children are too many to name, but five are well-known: The Preserver, the Twisted Horse, Goldtooth, Wily Joker, and Yellow Bear. The agonies which they inflicted upon mortals since the Dawn are hideous and innumerable.”

Yellow Bear is a demigod of Fronela and mentioned in the Guide p228.  Goldtooth might be Jaldon Toothmaker because of his golden teeth.  Twisted Horse could be Sheng Seleris.  

 

8 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Some slight contradictions as to whether there are nine children or ‘too many to name’, but I don’t think ‘unclean’ here means untouchables.

I think that's because in the original writeup in White Bear and Red Moon, her other children were the Unclean Races: the Walkers of Chaos, the Eaters of Life and the Unnatural Ones.

[Steve]

13 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Also, Sandy Petersen has linked the varied superheroes to specific runes.  IIRC, Androgeus is associated to the Man Rune (though I can't currently find the reference).  Maybe it's in the Forgotten Secrets chapbook published by the Kraken?

Yep, it's in Forgotten Secrets.

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, metcalph said:

Goldtooth might be Jaldon Toothmaker because of his golden teeth.  Twisted Horse could be Sheng Seleris.  

I had a sense from the original text that the 9 noted children were fathered or mothered during the Great Darkness, which would work for Jaldon, but not Sheng.  On the other hand, the latter would make an interesting 'twist', so to speak.  It would also imply Androgeus was somewhere near Pent or Kralorela in 1220.  Given that we know little of her wanderings, other than references to him in Fronela during the Syndics Ban and her arrival in Dragon Pass at some point during the Hero Wars to aid the Tarsh Earth Twins, it's certainly feasible.

Speaking of the Earth Twins, I wonder who is birthed from that encounter with Androgeus?  I'd surmiss that he fathered one that is left behind, and mothers another born after his departure from Dragon Pass.  

[davecake]

It is very tempting to connect Androgeus to the various Pelorian hermaphrodite Gods and demons in some way - e.g. Jernotius, the Suvarian barzkarto, etc. 

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, davecake said:

It is very tempting to connect Androgeus to the various Pelorian hermaphrodite Gods and demons in some way - e.g. Jernotius, the Suvarian barzkarto, etc. 

But I think it would be misleading, as much as comparing this to the gender-fluidity of the Sea Tribe.

Androgeus is in many ways the antithesis of the unseparated utrum gender, she is conflicted about his sexual/gender nature all the time, as she shows by the use of his gendered pronouns. The gender changes might be hurtful and hateful experiences. When happening during a pregnancy, these experiences might warp the unborn child.

A major function of Androgeus is to antagonize the world. Saving humans in the Greater Darkness can be seen as such, just like bringing suffering through the offspring. Limiting her offspring during Godtime to nine significant direct children, some of which spreading like plagues, is a bit astonishing, but works if some of them are the founders of difficult races.

"Her children are too many to name" might indicate a much greater amount of fertile interactions during Time (as opposed to Godtime), too. He might possess a Green Age type of fertility overcoming normal boundaries of species with ease.

[davecake]

 

14 hours ago, Joerg said:

Androgeus is in many ways the antithesis of the unseparated utrum gender, she is conflicted about his sexual/gender nature all the time, as she shows by the use of his gendered pronouns.

Joerg, read the quote from Sandy above - Androgeus is now very conflicted about his gender, but she was not always that way. 

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, davecake said:

 

Joerg, read the quote from Sandy above - Androgeus is now very conflicted about his gender, but she was not always that way. 

Androgeus may have been whole in the Green Age, but leaving it was disastrous for the entity. Maybe that's his background - she embodies _all_ of the effects of exiting the Green Age.

[davecake]

Yes, I think Androgeus is a Green Age entity that has suffered a great deal in the gradual transition to modern times. It's gradual, though - Golden Age Androgeus was comparatively powerful and integrated compared to the current version. 

[Pentallion]

So does Chaosium have any plans for Androgeus in the upcoming Hero Wars?  Will Androgeus have participated in any significant events in the intervening years leading up to 1627?

[jajagappa]

On ‎11‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 12:06 PM, Pentallion said:

So does Chaosium have any plans for Androgeus in the upcoming Hero Wars?  Will Androgeus have participated in any significant events in the intervening years leading up to 1627?

I'd say the first would be "yes", and the second "not in Dragon Pass".  But I do believe Androgeus arrives by around 1638 or so.

Given the lack of reference in 1621 based on the core content in the Guide, and the suggestion that he may be in Fronela, it seems quite plausible that she is trapped in some section still under the Ban.  The area in Tastalar seems unlikely.  Charg is possible.  However, there's a nice area of Stomble/Jonatela along the shore of Samita Lake that is still under the Ban and quite close to the Yellow Bear Hills (where the Yellow Bear may be one of his children).  Given the battles and suffering with the Kingdom of War, that seems to fit as a place where Androgeus would show up.

I rediscovered in the Ethilrist bit on the Hero Wars (GtG p.750):  Penraltan had finally died two years before, fighting for Argrath of course, and Politean the Bright now led the Pure Horse People. Maroflo had been the priest-king of the Earth cultists for fourteen years, backed by the Shaker Priestesses, but I knew that his uncle Annstad was still the real ruler in Tarsh. Even the rebellion that the Unnatural One engineered could not dislodge Annstad; how could he think that she could succeed where Jar-eel had failed?  

KoS p.38 gives us the beginning of Maroflo's reign as 1632, so 14 years puts the writing around 1646. 

KoS p.194 notes both Penraltan and Politean: Penraltan the Killer was next, who loved to lead his men to distant battles, and fought at the side of the giants (1638). Politean the Bright was defeated by the scarlet specters, and hung in the sky for two years being roasted alive (1642-1644). When he died the bells of the Sun were heard by all survivors...

So Penraltan fought at Dwernapple in 1638.  Unclear whether he died there or not, but Politean seems to have succeeded Penraltan by 1640, then was captured in 1642 and roasted by the Lunars.  However, other text places Penraltan at the Great Wedding which occurs in 1643 (which seems too late for Penraltan, but could be text referencing Argrath's wedding to the Feathered Horse Queen instead). 

Overall it suggests that Androgeus attempted rebellion in Tarsh against Annstad somewhere in the period 1638-43 before the Red Emperor (with Ethilrist's aid) defeats Argrath and retakes Dragon Pass.  The old Fadabius Letters (in WF3 and RQ Companion) note the uprising by Wintertop aided by Androgeus against both Furthest and Sartar, but do not provide any details that would help date the event.

One consideration is this bit of text regarding the Battle of Dwernapple (KoS p.21): Jareel especially was eager to slice her foe, and to sing them to death. But when she saw Argrath, who was refusing to fight because of love, she was struck with awe, and remembered her own lover back at camp [i.e. Annstad]. She then lusted for him more than she had lusted to kill Argrath, and went to camp to take him.  And (KoS p.130): but soon only Annstad of Dunstop was left alive, surrounded by the corpses of the Demon Lovers regiment. Jar-eel the Razoress came to face him, and they spoke with magic for five minutes, each unmoving. They were both covered with gore and panting from exertion. Both were from nations which hated each other, and had come miles to murder. Yet there on that horrid field they fell in love, never a vocalized word heard from either of them. Rather than fight, the pair of them went from the field, ignoring the cries of the Lunar troops.

A natural reason for Wintertop to rise against Argrath's ally Annstad would be this betrayal with the Lunars.  So I can definitely see 1638-9+ as the time of the Tarsh Uprising, aided by Androgeus.  If the Grazelanders join with Wintertop/Androgeus (which is suggested in the Fadabius letters), then that might be under Politean - and his capture in 1642 might indicate the point where the Wintertop Rebellion is defeated (or perhaps it is in 1643 when Unstey's rule ends?).

[Joerg]

24 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I'd say the first would be "yes", and the second "not in Dragon Pass".  But I do believe Androgeus arrives by around 1638 or so.

Given the lack of reference in 1621 based on the core content in the Guide, and the suggestion that he may be in Fronela, it seems quite plausible that she is trapped in some section still under the Ban.  The area in Tastalar seems unlikely.  Charg is possible.  However, there's a nice area of Stomble/Jonatela along the shore of Samita Lake that is still under the Ban and quite close to the Yellow Bear Hills (where the Yellow Bear may be one of his children).  Given the battles and suffering with the Kingdom of War, that seems to fit as a place where Androgeus would show up.

I rediscovered in the Ethilrist bit on the Hero Wars (GtG p.750):  Penraltan had finally died two years before, fighting for Argrath of course, and Politean the Bright now led the Pure Horse People. Maroflo had been the priest-king of the Earth cultists for fourteen years, backed by the Shaker Priestesses, but I knew that his uncle Annstad was still the real ruler in Tarsh. Even the rebellion that the Unnatural One engineered could not dislodge Annstad; how could he think that she could succeed where Jar-eel had failed?  

KoS p.38 gives us the beginning of Maroflo's reign as 1632, so 14 years puts the writing around 1646. 

KoS p.194 notes both Penraltan and Politean: Penraltan the Killer was next, who loved to lead his men to distant battles, and fought at the side of the giants (1638). Politean the Bright was defeated by the scarlet specters, and hung in the sky for two years being roasted alive (1642-1644). When he died the bells of the Sun were heard by all survivors...

Penraltan apparently was the chief for Varnatol the Durtarl, and his exploits at Dwernapple are the last paragraphs of the Grazer section of Composite History of Dragon Pass.

It is a bit unclear how the author was able to mention Penraltan's gift of gold horses at the same wedding where Varnatol presented the Composite History, but I think this would have to be the wedding to Inkarne. (There may have been a previous wedding, but with the new information about Inkarne being the daughter of Moirades and Riches Without ... I think that Argrath married only one FHQ. In that case it is unclear how Inkarne became tied to Holay, though.)

King of Sartar names Jandetin as the Grazer chief at the first (1629) marriage to the FHQ, so Penraltan must have been there for a later wedding. On the other hand, if the 1640 date for the completion of CHDP was correct, we are looking at another marriage between Dwernapple and 1640. Did Argrath and the FHQ repeat their year weddings several times before the 1643 wedding? And how does Holay get into the game of weddings? Another Inkarne?

 

24 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

So Penraltan fought at Dwernapple in 1638.  Unclear whether he died there or not,

Unless Penraltan's gift of the gold horses preceded Dwernapple, the CHDP confirms that he survived (p.98 hardcover edition):

Quote

He and his men swooped upon the fleeing elf army, and his horse still has splinters, to hear him tell of it.

 

24 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

but Politean seems to have succeeded Penraltan by 1640, then was captured in 1642 and roasted by the Lunars.  However, other text places Penraltan at the Great Wedding which occurs in 1643 (which seems too late for Penraltan, but could be text referencing Argrath's wedding to the Feathered Horse Queen instead). 

That would have to be the 1629 wedding. If Inkarne is the daughter of Moirades, she would have been in her mid twenties. I am not sure when Moirades became King of Dragon Pass. Riches Without Tears first set her bride price high, but was outbid by Moirades. 

24 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Overall it suggests that Androgeus attempted rebellion in Tarsh against Annstad somewhere in the period 1638-43 before the Red Emperor (with Ethilrist's aid) defeats Argrath and retakes Dragon Pass.  The old Fadabius Letters (in WF3 and RQ Companion) note the uprising by Wintertop aided by Androgeus against both Furthest and Sartar, but do not provide any details that would help date the event.

Basically, that's the three player scenario in the Dragon Pass boardgame, and would come after the Full Game with complete diplomacy.

24 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

One consideration is this bit of text regarding the Battle of Dwernapple (KoS p.21): Jareel especially was eager to slice her foe, and to sing them to death. But when she saw Argrath, who was refusing to fight because of love, she was struck with awe, and remembered her own lover back at camp [i.e. Annstad]. She then lusted for him more than she had lusted to kill Argrath, and went to camp to take him. 

That sounds like lots of poetic license for the CHDP version:

24 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

And (KoS p.130): but soon only Annstad of Dunstop was left alive, surrounded by the corpses of the Demon Lovers regiment. Jar-eel the Razoress came to face him, and they spoke with magic for five minutes, each unmoving. They were both covered with gore and panting from exertion. Both were from nations which hated each other, and had come miles to murder. Yet there on that horrid field they fell in love, never a vocalized word heard from either of them. Rather than fight, the pair of them went from the field, ignoring the cries of the Lunar troops.

Basically, Annstad (a vassal of Argrath, and not quite in the league of Jar-eel) neutralizes the enemy superhero through his je-ne-sais-quoi (especially after having seen his portrait). "ignoring the cries of the Lunar troops" makes it quite clear that they regarded this as weakening their side.

"Both were from nations which hated each other" was unproblematic when I assumed that Annstad was one of the Tarsh Exiles. We learned about him being another Fazzurson only when some of the contents of the Glorantha book from the 13G kickstarter were leaked.

Annstad was a Lunar Tarshite already when he joined Argrath in 1624 or 25, and probably never ever hid his Lunar religion. Let's assume that he went over to Argrath after Fazzur resigned from leading the Tarshite force at Dangerford, and sent one of his sons to establish rapport with the new power that was able to deal with Pharandros. I'm a bit curious why he joined Argrath rather than Kallyr, but maybe Kallyr had proven immune to his charms after having shared the bedding with Rigsdal, and his advances might have earned him a dismissal from Boldhome.

 

24 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

A natural reason for Wintertop to rise against Argrath's ally Annstad would be this betrayal with the Lunars.  So I can definitely see 1638-9+ as the time of the Tarsh Uprising, aided by Androgeus.  If the Grazelanders join with Wintertop/Androgeus (which is suggested in the Fadabius letters), then that might be under Politean - and his capture in 1642 might indicate the point where the Wintertop Rebellion is defeated (or perhaps it is in 1643 when Unstey's rule ends?).

As far as I am concerned, Unstey is Annstad. 

The Fadabius letters are another version of the war history as played out in the Dragon Pass boardgame, so they naturally describe the line-ups in the scenarios of that game.

The Grazers certainly are part of the "independent" faction in the three player game, but the various FHQ switches brought switches of alliance quite a few times. Yoristina appears to have been the only FHQ allying with neither Tarsh nor Sartar.

[scott-martin]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Basically, that's the three player scenario in the Dragon Pass boardgame, and would come after the Full Game with complete diplomacy.

Worth keeping in mind here that Androgeus becomes Best Friends with the Twins so however she forges his bond with the Old Tarsh coalition, it happens fast.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

In that case it is unclear how Inkarne became tied to Holay

Queen Inrana's daughter, of course!

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

I think that Argrath married only one FHQ

Agreed.  But the FHQ doesn't bestow the sovereignty of Saird.  That's in the hands of another Earth/Horse Priestess, the Queen of Filichet/Holay.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

If Inkarne is the daughter of Moirades

Yes, the daughter of Moirades and Riches Without Tears, b.1605.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

As far as I am concerned, Unstey is Annstad

Possible.

 

[jajagappa]

4 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Androgeus becomes Best Friends with the Twins

And of course raises the question: who are the Earth Twins?  Children of Argrath and X?  Children of Unstey/Annstad and the Shaker Priestess?  

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

And of course raises the question: who are the Earth Twins?  Children of Argrath and X?  Children of Unstey/Annstad and the Shaker Priestess?  

Varstapoor and Vestenbora, Arim's twin children, I would have thought (King of Sartar p97)

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Varstapoor and Vestenbora, Arim's twin children, I would have thought (King of Sartar p97)

Yes, perhaps they are called forth from wherever they reside.  However, the fact that Varstapoor has dates noted on p.99 (1368-1375) of seven years strongly suggests that he was a sacrificial king and might not be able to be brought back.

It's equally possible that we have a new pair of Earth Twins.  One possibility is that Samastina gives birth to Argrath's twins in early 1625, and it's possible that Samastina owes them to the Shaker Temple.  If so, they'd be 13 in 1638 - young but certainly old enough given powerful magics.

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Yes, perhaps they are called forth from wherever they reside.  However, the fact that Varstapoor has dates noted on p.99 (1368-1375) of seven years strongly suggests that he was a sacrificial king and might not be able to be brought back.

Even if Varstapoor was sacrificed, King of Sartar does say about his end (and I assume the same thing applied to his sister)

Quote

In 1375 King Varstapoor ascended to immortal guardianship of the Great Temple of
Earthshaker in Wintertop

KoS p97

What's the point of having immortal guardians if they can't be brought back?

[Joerg]

8 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Queen Inrana's daughter, of course!

However, it is Inkarne who is remembered as ruling for a hundred years. So is Inrana's daughter named Inkarne, too?

We know that Inrana's daughter is brought to the Kerofin temple for further education in 1634, and is hidden there after the defeat at Yoran.

Quote

Agreed.  But the FHQ doesn't bestow the sovereignty of Saird.  That's in the hands of another Earth/Horse Priestess, the Queen of Filichet/Holay.

I sort of wonder whether Verenmars used anything like this when he founded his kingdom of Saird?

 

Inkarne:

Quote

Yes, the daughter of Moirades and Riches Without Tears, b.1605.

And through Moirades also the granddaughter of another Feathered Horse Queen (Guide p.175). Since Tarkalor married the third FHQ in contest with Phargentes, this means that Moirades is the grandson of Yoristina (assuming that she was "Keeps the Children"). CHDP states that Phargentes was happily married, and calculating Moirades' birth to 1558, he could have married her upon his ascendance as King of Tarsh.

Having married a sister or cousin of "Mother of Land" almost two decades earlier may have hindered Phargentes' ambitions to become King of Dragon Pass against Tarkalor.

Then we have Estal Donge, named in the Sartar section of CHDP as sister of Pharandros (and presumably a daughter of Hasta Orindori, making her Fazzur's niece). "A noblewoman from the city of Durnsa, in distant Oronin." On the other hand, Moirades was well known for orgiastic indulgences, and it would have been possible for a Lunar house like the Eel-ariash to slip a fertile daughter of their house into his amusements, e.g. during the coronation festivities of the current mask of the Red Emperor which Moirades is likely to have attended, more in his role as kin to the emperor (through Hon-eel and the Telsor lineage) than as provincial king.

Interestingly, the mention of Estal in the Tarsh section of CHDP for interceding with Argrath on behalf of Pharandros has been changed from the softcover to the hardcover edition to Pharandros' mother, Harsta, Fazzur's sister. The mention in the Sartarite CHDP still has Estal Donge and names her his sister.

 

Quote

A highly literate woman from Durnsa, a city in the far-off Oronin Satrapy of the Empire, Estal Donge is a sorceress who worships her foreign deities with celebrations of dissolute indulgence and orgiastic excess.

The Guide doesn't know anything about a city named Durnsa in Oronin. The closest it can offer is the city of Durnvok in Doblian, which also offers presumably ecstatic oEgret rites (compare the heron rites of Dorkath, on the other end of Suvaria) which are congruent with her description in Sartar Kingdom of Heroes. But old Pelanda has other ecstatic cults, too.

 

The Lost Fragment (exclusive to the hardcover edition of KoS) names Estal a rival of Fazzur, sent by the Emperor rather than by the Tarshite court (which is represented as being ruled by Moirades).

 

Speaking of weird lineages, who are the -Telsor lineage, descended from the Red Emperor, that married Phoronestes? They might have had a hand in Pharandros' education in Glamour.

Edited November 26, 2017 by Joerg

[metcalph]

47 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Speaking of weird lineages, who are the -Telsor lineage, descended from the Red Emperor, that married Phoronestes? They might have had a hand in Pharandros' education in Glamour.

Described in the Glorantha Sourcebook

Quote

Valar-telsor. This clan has ties to both the
Red Emperor and Great Sister. They claim the
pre-imperial Lunar heroine Valare Addi as an
ancestor and they rule the satrapy of Karasal (Guide has RastariIning - PHM). They
are notorious for their tendency to ally against
whoever is the most powerful of the other clans.
They are patrons of the Natha temple and of
several schools of Illumination.

 

[jajagappa]

10 hours ago, metcalph said:

What's the point of having immortal guardians if they can't be brought back?

I'd certainly expect they can be.  But will they be the active human Earth Twins, or part of the magical guardians/powers of them?  I'd expect the latter.

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

So is Inrana's daughter named Inkarne, too?

Of course!

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

And through Moirades also the granddaughter of another Feathered Horse Queen (Guide p.175). Since Tarkalor married the third FHQ in contest with Phargentes, this means that Moirades is the grandson of Yoristina (assuming that she was "Keeps the Children"). CHDP states that Phargentes was happily married, and calculating Moirades' birth to 1558, he could have married her upon his ascendance as King of Tarsh.

It's a magically powerful lineage:

1) Pyjeemseb m. Hon-eel (who is daughter of Red Emperor & grand-daughter of the Red Moon)

2) Phoronestes (b. 1491, d.1535) m. Kana-Telsor (who is from one of the 5 Great Families, granddaughter of the Red Emperor and Valare Addi).  And yes, they would have been involved in the raising of Philigos and Phargentes. 

3) Phargentes (b. ~1514, d.1579) m. daughter of a FHQ (yes, probably one of Yoristina's children).  Effectively he and is brother are Lunar Heartlanders.  From some discussion notes, picture the brothers with bright red hair, coiled and oiled beards, golden skin, and no tattoos.

4) Moirades (b. 1558, d.1610)

1. m. Harsta (daughter of Illaro Blacktooth, sister of Fazzur) -> one son, Pharandos (b.1582)
2. m. Virkala Tor,  aka Riches Without Tears (gt-granddaughter of Yoristina via Vorala Tor, Mother of Lands, and Sorana, Splendid Among the Proud) -> one daughter, Inkarne (b.1605)
3. w. Jar-eel (daughter of the Red Emperor & grand-daughter of the Red Moon) -> one son, Phargentes (b.1611)

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

Estal Donge, named in the Sartar section of CHDP as sister of Pharandros

It's unclear whether this is true or not.  There are no other references at this point placing Estal Donge as Pharandos' sister.  However, she could be a child via concubine, or one conveniently ignored in particular sources.

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

I sort of wonder whether Verenmars used anything like this when he founded his kingdom of Saird?

I placed the arrival of Holaya into Saird/Holay during the Verenmars period.  Verenmars befriends her and builds her a temple in Mirin's Cross, but does not marry her.  His great-grandson Yusando releases the Stallion that arrives at Lake Invaress and marks the spot where the temple to the Horse Goddess is founded.  Verenmars marries "Riyesta the Earth Mother" - the Green Woman rather than the Red Woman - and who may have been Queen at Heruvernalda.

[Joerg]

39 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

It's a magically powerful lineage:

1) Pyjeemseb m. Hon-eel (who is daughter of Red Emperor & grand-daughter of the Red Moon)

Pyjeemsab of course comes from a lineage that had avatars of Sorana Tor as mothers for two generations at least.

 

Quote

2) Phoronestes (b. 1491, d.1535) m. Kana-Telsor (who is from one of the 5 Great Families, granddaughter of the Red Emperor and Valare Addi).  And yes, they would have been involved in the raising of Philigos and Phargentes. 

And probably the two or three following generations as well.

 

Quote

3) Phargentes (b. ~1514, d.1579) m. daughter of a FHQ (yes, probably one of Yoristina's children).  Effectively he and his brother are Lunar Heartlanders.  From some discussion notes, picture the brothers with bright red hair, coiled and oiled beards, golden skin, and no tattoos.

Which makes me wonder about the Orindori family (Fazzur's father and ancestors). They appear to be of Tarshite lineages, but like Philigos and Phargentes had Sylilan holdings, so maybe the family came from Sylila and managed to establish itself in the leadership of a Tarshite clan.

On the other hand, the Orindori are named as one of the families taking care of the royal horse herds. Looking at the history of Tarsh, there is a good likelihood that these were established under Yarandros, and while the office may have turned into some kind of local kingship after Orios' demise, there is a quite high possibility that the current keepers of those herds trace that responsibility back to the establishment of the herds.

(I wonder whether the princes of Sartar had a similar establishment, possibly in cooperation with the Pol Joni?)

For a native Tarshite family to gain significant holdings in the (barbarian) Heartland Satrapy of Sylila the Orindori may have engaged in special marriages with Jillaro. The heirs of Hwarin Dalthippa don't seem to have supported Hon-eel's Tarsh adventure much, and Phargentes rising to the post of Provincial Overseer may have galled them a lot. Still, the exiles from Palashee's Tarsh appear to have prospered in that exile, except perhaps their deposed king Philigos himself.

 

Estal Donge related to Pharandros, Moirades and/or Fazzur:

Quote

It's unclear whether this is true or not.  There are no other references at this point placing Estal Donge as Pharandos' sister.  However, she could be a child via concubine, or one conveniently ignored in particular sources.

The author of the Sartar CHDP and the Fazzur fragment disagrees with the author of the Tarshite CHDP in a couple of points. (And I don't think that either of them was Densesros - that Vendref sage was most likely the collator and reluctant editor of those texts.)

Oronin Satrapy cries Eel-ariash, and while the clan left its name on two of the Inspirations of Moonson, it may have pursued yet other goals of its own with the Temertain plot.

 

When I designed my own campaign around the Lunar occupation of Sartar and Heortland, one of my leitmotives was the different approaches by the Tarshite royals, the Orindori, and the Dara Happans to managing the newly won lands.

Fazzur is credited as land owner of significant tracts of conquered Sartar. I wonder where, and whose clan lands were confiscated. Apart from the Lunar manor in Colymar lands and Wulfsland, there are no confirmed cases of Lunar landholders in occupied Sartar. The Sartar dynasty had little if any royal land - the roads, and maybe the three keeps named after Saronil's sons and surrounding lands. And possibly Duck Point, which might cast an avaricious note on Fazzur blaming the ducks for the rebellion. Depopulating the land around that town might have gained him control over what was left of the river trade with Nochet.

 

Quote

I placed the arrival of Holaya into Saird/Holay during the Verenmars period.  Verenmars befriends her and builds her a temple in Mirin's Cross, but does not marry her.  His great-grandson Yusando releases the Stallion that arrives at Lake Invaress and marks the spot where the temple to the Horse Goddess is founded.  Verenmars marries "Riyesta the Earth Mother" - the Green Woman rather than the Red Woman - and who may have been Queen at Heruvernalda.

So there wasn't really any time when a "High Queen of Saird" was a reality until Argrath made it so?

 

If Inrana's daughter is commonly named Inkarne, does Inkarne basically mean "sovereignty goddess avatar wife of the Liberator," and could this be a title also bestowed on Samastina for enabling Argrath's kingship over Kethaela?

Edited November 26, 2017 by Joerg
slight reduction of the quotes