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Joerg

How did the Sartarite clans/houses in Nochet come to be?

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Recently necessary disclaimer: This is not presented as fact, but as proposal for working out the background of Sartarite clans or houses in Nochet.

 

A clan grows overcrowded in one of the city confederations in Sartar. What can they do?

Prior to the city confederations, a clan would have sent off a splinter clan with some of the herds, seed grain, and the tools necessary to claim a new clan tula elsewhere. Rarely, they would have land to spare for the new clan, but more often that new clan would start over far from home.

By the time of Sartar, most places suitable to start a new clan had been claimed. Occasionally a place on the border to some unpleasant neighbors would become available, like the Pol Joni establishment at Barbarian Town which opened some farmland south of the Dundealos, or the opening of Pavis County by Dorasar’s founding of New Pavis.

But with the city confederations, there was another option. Even before reaching the critical population size, excess people could be shunted off to the cities, where the constituting tribes controlled plots or even housing. These folk would formally retain their clan identity, at least for a while, but they usually were too removed from clan activities to participate in the decision making.

Over time, these folk could join the guilds, or possibly move on. Are there “urban nomadic” clans in Sartar, taking temporary residence in a place but moving on after a while?

And over time, Sartarites began populating the Sarli district of Nochet.

Some may have started as squatters, putting up camp on plots that weren’t inhabited (although quite likely someone would have used them as pastures or even gardens).

Others may have looked for a sponsor, an established house in Nochet that would lease their ancient claim on some plots in the city to the newcomers, possibly defining a client relationship and imposing some of the civic duties tied to that plot, too. This might demand the formation of a house or a guild.

Would such clans or guilds be Adjusted (Heortling-style mildly patriarchal) or Traditional Esrolian (i.e. mandatorily female-led)?

Later (Lunar, but also internal) troubles might send entire clans (or what remained of them) packing from Sartar. How would a refugee clan establish itself in Sarli?

 

Another question is how such a clan would feed itself. I get the impression that the granaries of Nochet are one very real power instrument in the hands of the Queens of Nochet, although failure to feed the city was a surefire symptom of not being fit to be Queen. How could a newcomer clan partake from that source, and how would that clan be expected to contribute? Does this require intercession of an Enfranchised House who would take the feeding upon their own responsibility, and who would define a se of demands to the new clients?

 

I have some questions about the history of Sarli district, too. The presence of Orlanth Hill makes this a logical point for Adjusted clans, providing a priesthood to the temple that sin not so easily cowed by the demands of the Grandmothers. Such clans/houses will originaly have hailed from Heortland, or from a fusion of Adjustment warlords from Heortland with an Esrolian house.

Following the conflict between Finelvanth and his wife, there probably wasn’t much sympathy for Adusted houses in Nochet. However, there was plenty of space available, especially in the neighborhood of Orlanth Hill which may have been a symbol of bad luck in Grandmother circles.

 

Do the temples own land in Nochet (apart from their actual sites) where they can install clients without consulting any of the Enfranchised Houses? Does Orlanth Hill priesthood have claims for plots in Sarli?

 

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I have always envisioned Sartar and Esrolia having a close relationship; sometime tumultuous, sometimes placid, occasionally icy, but never uncaring.

I have presumed quite a bit of cross-border trade, and quite a bit more cross-border marriage than the average pair of kingdoms; that a few families -- or even larger groups -- in Sartar had some distinctly-Esrolian features in their Sartarite identity ...  and vice versa!

 

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Those kinds of cross-marriages are behind my research, really...

But about a quarter of Nochet is Sartarite in origin, and the Sartarites have either come in clans or guilds or have founded them here, and given them the appearance of Esrolian houses or guilds.

I suppose that means that they send a female leader to deal with the powers in Nochet.

Sartarite guilds and houses may be reckoned as unreliable and disorderly, lacking the absolute obedience a Grandmother can command. This lack of grandmothers may limit their participation in city decisions, but it helps maintaining a Heortling identity.

I am trying to get something analogous to a clan questionnaire for the Sartarites in Nochet.

When did they come into the city? That shows until when they participated in Sartar events, and when they started to participate in Nochet events.

This may concentrate around major setbacks for Sartar, e.g. the aftermath of the Battle of Grizzley Peak, the invasion in the middle of Terasarin's reign, the troubles after Terasarin's Death leading up to the conquest of Sartar, the Starbrow Rebellion, or other more local events and rebellions.

Did they come to Nochet at once, or did they spend some time in their tribal confederation city, and maybe form a new clan out of folk that didn't quite achieve what they wanted in say Jonstown or Wilmskirk? Were they sent by a city guild to provide representation in Nochet?

Who sponsored their establishment? Does it have to be a Nochet House or Guild, or can it be a temple (Grace Temple or Orlanth Hill)?

What other obligations did they have to enter?

Do they maintain a tribe-like network, e.g. preferred marriage partners?

How are their links to the Sartarite homeland?

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There's quite a few associations between the House of Sartar and Nochet - Arkilia, for one. And several members of the House were murdered there, obviously having taken refuge among the multitudes... There may even be descendants of Marlesta somewhere, among the Nochet demimonde.

You may wish to consider if any betrayed the Sartar princelings described in the "Crimes of Assassination" there.

It wouldn't surprise me if Sartar spent time there before venturing north into Quiviniland (he was kind of a cosmopolite and a wanderer). Maybe he has relations there (though his clan seems to be from near the Stone Woods).

So I suspect this goes back to the beginning of the kingdom.

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18 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

There's quite a few associations between the House of Sartar and Nochet - Arkilia, for one.

Yes, and Sartarites have made Nochet their biggest urban presence despite that problem. The death of Sarotar was followed by a number of violent deaths, probably including ancestresses of Hendira. Relationships between House Norinel and the Sartar dynasty were best described by "secret war".

 

18 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

And several members of the House were murdered there, obviously having taken refuge among the multitudes...

True. After the Opening, there was a well-established Sartarite presence in Nochet. That may have had to do with the death of Tarkalor at Grizzley Peak. Tarkalor was the last of the people involved in that secret war.

 

Basically, over the course of fifty years, a Sartarite presence worth about five tribes has been established in Nochet. The later arrivals will have been sponsored or at least promoted by earlier arrivals, but how did the early arrivals find acceptance in this Grandmother-ruled city?

 

18 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

There may even be descendants of Marlesta somewhere, among the Nochet demimonde.

I doubt it, unless there is a permanent Puppeteer presence in Nochet. The Puppeteers are a tribe unto themselves, a tightly knit group of entertainers and magicians.

 

18 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

It wouldn't surprise me if Sartar spent time there before venturing north into Quiviniland (he was kind of a cosmopolite and a wanderer). Maybe he has relations there (though his clan seems to be from near the Stone Woods).

There is that possibility, although I think for Sartar a visit at Ezel would have been more important. Sartar was well versed with Heortland cities. And he may have been the first Larnsti in at least half a millennium to have left Hendrikiland.

 

18 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

So I suspect this goes back to the beginning of the kingdom.

Not quite the beginning of the kingdom, but possibly the early reign of Saronil, and no more than one or two clans' population. Most likely merchants maintaining ties with their home city or clans, organized in a guild.

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The side-by-side nations of Sartar and Esrolia seem to be mythically "wed," with lots of... um... "intercourse" between them.  :blink:

I'm inclined to think that Orlanth's role as Ernalda's husband (husband-protector from the Esrolian POV) probably included some sort of ritual marriage (or at least amorous relationship) between Sartar (the man) and someone in the rulership of Esrolia, as part of creating his kingdom; there was probably some heroic or military action in defense of Esrolia, for them to acknowledge the "protector"part of things, and validate the role.

 

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The Sartar tribes came from Heortland, or Tarsh, as exiles, runing either from the Pharoah or from the Red Goddess. They are ultra-conservative and have really big chips on their shoulders about the clans they left.

Some of the Sartarits clans left on good terms with their original clans, but I think most did not. So, some of the marriage links between Sartar and Heortland are broken and marriages between the clans might be limited.

When the Pharoah died, one of the reaons for the Sartarites to be hostile to the Heortlanders went away and they could re-establish old links.

Nochet is, of course, different, as it is part of Esrolia, but it is a very big metropolis all by itself and has its own culture, laws and ways of doing things. Some new clans could have come in after the Opening, as traders from Pavis County, or from Sartar looking to travel the seas and rivers. Some older clans might have settled there when the Lunars came, having run back from Sartar. Some might be founded by exiles, or wanderers, or just opportunists breaking away from other clans.

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On ‎4‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 1:14 PM, Joerg said:

This may concentrate around major setbacks for Sartar, e.g. the aftermath of the Battle of Grizzley Peak, the invasion in the middle of Terasarin's reign, the troubles after Terasarin's Death leading up to the conquest of Sartar, the Starbrow Rebellion, or other more local events and rebellions.

All of the above.  There were earlier Heortlings who came, likely in the same period that the Colymar came to Sartar and Andrin became Belintar's Governor over Heortland.

As trade developed between King Sartar/Boldhome and Queen Bruvala/Nochet, there would have been trade/merchant communities, likely coming from the various confederations.  These make up the oldest "Sartarite" clans.  Intermarriage likely between clans with bases/factors in Karse and Nochet would have added to these.

Starting with Grizzly Peak there begins to be a steadier stream of refugees.  The Lunar invasion of 1602 and battles at Runegate/Boldhome sets off whole bloodlines toward Nochet, continued by the infighting between 1603-5.  Failure of Starbrow's Rebellion brings more.  By 1623, it's built up to over 20k.

On ‎4‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 3:42 AM, Joerg said:

Another question is how such a clan would feed itself. I get the impression that the granaries of Nochet are one very real power instrument in the hands of the Queens of Nochet, although failure to feed the city was a surefire symptom of not being fit to be Queen. How could a newcomer clan partake from that source, and how would that clan be expected to contribute? Does this require intercession of an Enfranchised House who would take the feeding upon their own responsibility, and who would define a se of demands to the new clients?

The granaries are run by the Asrelia temples.  Of course, those are controlled by the Enfranchised Houses, so it's a bit of both, and with the Queen participating in the rituals to keep the grain fresh/ripe.

Newcomers could donate to the Asrelia temples (which are also granaries), and thus receive benefit as well.  Or they could become clients of a greater house (directly to the Enfranchised House, or to other clients of the Enfranchies House) - creates a bit of a pyramid scheme.  They owe duties and tribute to the greater house, and for such duties get to share the benefits.  

On ‎4‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 3:42 AM, Joerg said:

I have some questions about the history of Sarli district, too. The presence of Orlanth Hill makes this a logical point for Adjusted clans, providing a priesthood to the temple that sin not so easily cowed by the demands of the Grandmothers. Such clans/houses will originaly have hailed from Heortland, or from a fusion of Adjustment warlords from Heortland with an Esrolian house.

Following the conflict between Finelvanth and his wife, there probably wasn’t much sympathy for Adusted houses in Nochet. However, there was plenty of space available, especially in the neighborhood of Orlanth Hill which may have been a symbol of bad luck in Grandmother circles.

The Adjustment Wars brought Nochet down to around 5000 people, most living in the Sacred City.  Over time, and particularly with Belintar's ascension to power, Nochet's population grew internally, and via immigration.  Some Heortland clans begin to settle after 1320 or so, and do so in Sarli given the presence of Storm Hill.

On ‎4‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 3:42 AM, Joerg said:

Do the temples own land in Nochet (apart from their actual sites) where they can install clients without consulting any of the Enfranchised Houses? Does Orlanth Hill priesthood have claims for plots in Sarli?

The temples largely 'own' their sites.  Some are quite large - the Esrola temple being the best example.  Some reclaimed sites/land as Nochet population grew post-Adjustment Wars.  But all the Enfranchised Houses also have claims over most of the land in Nochet (excluding Kena Hill, Storm Hill, and the Sacred City), so attempts by temples to claim sites are going to be largely tied to those who also have connections to those same noble houses (e.g. the Grace Temple in Sarli is heavily influenced by House Delaeos and vice versa).  

Orlanthi priests do not have claims in Sarli - and the guardians at Storm Gate ostensibly keep "Orlanth" out of the city.  House Delaeos has claims over and receives tribute from many/most in Sarli.

On ‎4‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 1:14 PM, Joerg said:

I suppose that means that they send a female leader to deal with the powers in Nochet.

Most have prominent women, usually in one of the Ernalda temples and participating in one of the Societies of the Cloth.  However, they will also have Issaries merchants and Lhankor Mhy scribes to deal with various relationships in the city, so not exclusively female.

On ‎4‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 1:14 PM, Joerg said:

I am trying to get something analogous to a clan questionnaire for the Sartarites in Nochet.

Most of my House Generation questionnaire focuses on the non-Sartarite houses.

The one related to the Storm Tide is this:

The Storm Tribe Flood

As the Lunar Empire advanced south through Tarsh and then into Sartar, many of the Storm Tribe folk fled their homes leaving hearth and clan behind.  Many have come to Nochet with their strange and often barbaric ways and customs.  They have crowded into Sarli particularly and taken over many privileges from old families, or even married into some houses!

What did your House do when the Storm Tribe flood came?

o  1. We opened our homes and hearths to the refugees from the north. {House residing in Sarli} 

o  2. We welcomed the refugees into the city as long as they stayed in Sarli or outside in Rivertown. {Delaeos, Hulta} 

o  3. We waited to see if Ernalda blessed the refugees.

o  4. We opposed the entry of the refugees into the city. {House residing in Sarli, Evaeo}

 

Answers:

1. Your House tried to absorb and adopt the newcomers, but was overwhelmed and socially bankrupted by the influx of refugees, and in many cases married into the newly arrived Orlanthi clan with their foreign and warlike ways. You were forced to find a new patron: choose between Houses Delaeos, Delainaeo, Hulta, or Oranaeo, or the Temple of Grace.  Reduce your Communication Resource to 1.  Add 1 check to the Generous, Hospitable, and Proud Virtues. 

Optional: complete the Sartar Clan Questionnaire to determine the background of the clan you ‘adopted’.

2. Your efforts were rewarded.  Add 1 to your Communication Resource and 1 check to the Ambitious and Generous Virtues.  You have gained one of the Sarli clans as your own client hall.  Name the clan and add the ability Patron of Clan {X}. 

3. You carefully waited, but have yet to see benefit from your actions.  Add 1 check to the Traditional, Miserly, and Cautious Virtues.

4. Your strategy failed and you lost an old privilege to the newcomers.  If you lived in Sarli, you have been forced to move to either Tershis or Kalava.  Add 1 check to the Miserly and Vengeful Virtues. You have a particular hatred of one of the Sarli clans who is now your enemy.  Name the clan and add the flaw: Hate Clan {X}.

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10 hours ago, jajagappa said:

All of the above.  There were earlier Heortlings who came, likely in the same period that the Colymar came to Sartar and Andrin became Belintar's Governor over Heortland.

So they would still live under Belintar's rulership, but not under that travesty of a king?

Such clans would have been sceptical of Belintar's rulership, and the houses welcoming them most likely would at least have been willing to hedge a bet against Belintar's long-term success. So it might be interesting to see which houses those were, and whether they burnt their fingers.

Given the cautiousness of Grandmothers, I suspect they would have made second tier houses in their client scheme take the risk, rather than expose themselves.

I suppose that Hendrikiland and Sartarite origins aren't much differentiated in Nochet, and that they will likely have intermarried after a few generations to a degree that they have become a single subculture. (Renting out rooms to students from abroad shows me how notions of "home" broaden when you are living abroad.)

10 hours ago, jajagappa said:

As trade developed between King Sartar/Boldhome and Queen Bruvala/Nochet, there would have been trade/merchant communities, likely coming from the various confederations.  These make up the oldest "Sartarite" clans.  Intermarriage likely between clans with bases/factors in Karse and Nochet would have added to these.

So their presence may have started as guilds, possibly working their way up in status as they profited from their ties to the Quivini trade routes. But this arrival would be about six to eight generations after their ancestors left Heortland for Dragon Pass. Enough for the threat of Belintar to have become something abstract, with more pressing new troubles like beastmen, Telmori, Praxians or Grazers occupying their image of enmity.

Such mercantile establishments would have been sponsored by the major mercantile Houses, possibly including Enfranchised ones. By taking a role in establishing new houses, their status would rise a lot even if those new houses didn't become direct clients. It would still be a risk, because when (not if) those newcomers misbehaved, it reflected badly on their sponsors.

 

10 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Starting with Grizzly Peak there begins to be a steadier stream of refugees.  The Lunar invasion of 1602 and battles at Runegate/Boldhome sets off whole bloodlines toward Nochet, continued by the infighting between 1603-5.  Failure of Starbrow's Rebellion brings more.  By 1623, it's built up to over 20k.

Grizzly Peak coincides with the boom of the Opening. While not a direct threat for the Principality, it opened up a huge opportunity. Even war clans could have been welcome, as the Melib venture provided plenty of occupation for mercenary work.

10 hours ago, jajagappa said:

The granaries are run by the Asrelia temples.  Of course, those are controlled by the Enfranchised Houses, so it's a bit of both, and with the Queen participating in the rituals to keep the grain fresh/ripe.

Ok. I wonder about the urban diet, anyway. Given the presence of the fisherfolk, I expect a certain portion of protein to come in the shape of sea-food, whether clams, crabs, or fish. Geese appear to be an important factor in food, too, both for the eggs and for the meat. Pigs are another companion beast of Ernalda well suited for the city. Sheep and dairy on the other hand would be rather under-represented in the direct neighborhood of the city. Cattle less so since you need to breed oxen on a regular schedule to keep plowing the land and doing overland transportation.

With the Antones Estates consuming most of the land directly adjacent to the city, farmers' markets require almost an entire day delivery to the city. The farmland north of the Lyksos may have shorter routes into the city than the farms to the west.

10 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Newcomers could donate to the Asrelia temples (which are also granaries), and thus receive benefit as well.  Or they could become clients of a greater house (directly to the Enfranchised House, or to other clients of the Enfranchies House) - creates a bit of a pyramid scheme.  They owe duties and tribute to the greater house, and for such duties get to share the benefits.  

This patron-client-subclient scheme probably defines Nochet society, only that obligations flow up to other houses, too, if I read your campaign correctly.

10 hours ago, jajagappa said:

The Adjustment Wars brought Nochet down to around 5000 people, most living in the Sacred City. 

Does this take the Aeolians south of the city and the fisherman communities into account? Both these communities appear to have an ongoing history of presence in the region.

Either would have been bystanders in the Adjustment wars, possibly co-opted by one side or the other.

10 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Over time, and particularly with Belintar's ascension to power, Nochet's population grew internally, and via immigration.  Some Heortland clans begin to settle after 1320 or so, and do so in Sarli given the presence of Storm Hill.

I guess those are now subsumed in the "Sartarite" population of Nochet.

10 hours ago, jajagappa said:

The temples largely 'own' their sites.  Some are quite large - the Esrola temple being the best example.  Some reclaimed sites/land as Nochet population grew post-Adjustment Wars.  But all the Enfranchised Houses also have claims over most of the land in Nochet (excluding Kena Hill, Storm Hill, and the Sacred City), so attempts by temples to claim sites are going to be largely tied to those who also have connections to those same noble houses (e.g. the Grace Temple in Sarli is heavily influenced by House Delaeos and vice versa).  

So basically, the less prestigious houses (whether of native or Sartarite origin) live on leased land, and the land-owner has great influence over them?

10 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Orlanthi priests do not have claims in Sarli - and the guardians at Storm Gate ostensibly keep "Orlanth" out of the city.  House Delaeos has claims over and receives tribute from many/most in Sarli.

Makes sense. Any Orlanth temples besides Orlanth Hill will be sponsored by local houses, then?

10 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Most have prominent women, usually in one of the Ernalda temples and participating in one of the Societies of the Cloth.  However, they will also have Issaries merchants and Lhankor Mhy scribes to deal with various relationships in the city, so not exclusively female.

I was assuming that quite a few of the Sartarite houses would have male heads of the houses, but that those would be treated like master guildsmen rather than the equivalent of a house's "mother" when dealing with native houses. Sending female envoys/ring members would ease that a bit. But then it would be hard to be of Sartarite origin and a member of the polite society of Nochet at the same time, anyway. You would have to be quite rich or quite well related.

10 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Most of my House Generation questionnaire focuses on the non-Sartarite houses.

Yes. That's why I started this thread.

10 hours ago, jajagappa said:

The one related to the Storm Tide is this:

The Storm Tribe Flood

As the Lunar Empire advanced south through Tarsh and then into Sartar, many of the Storm Tribe folk fled their homes leaving hearth and clan behind.  Many have come to Nochet with their strange and often barbaric ways and customs.  They have crowded into Sarli particularly and taken over many privileges from old families, or even married into some houses!

What did your House do when the Storm Tribe flood came?

o  1. We opened our homes and hearths to the refugees from the north. {House residing in Sarli} 

o  2. We welcomed the refugees into the city as long as they stayed in Sarli or outside in Rivertown. {Delaeos, Hulta} 

o  3. We waited to see if Ernalda blessed the refugees.

o  4. We opposed the entry of the refugees into the city. {House residing in Sarli, Evaeo}

 

Answers:

1. Your House tried to absorb and adopt the newcomers, but was overwhelmed and socially bankrupted by the influx of refugees, and in many cases married into the newly arrived Orlanthi clan with their foreign and warlike ways. You were forced to find a new patron: choose between Houses Delaeos, Delainaeo, Hulta, or Oranaeo, or the Temple of Grace.  Reduce your Communication Resource to 1.  Add 1 check to the Generous, Hospitable, and Proud Virtues. 

Optional: complete the Sartar Clan Questionnaire to determine the background of the clan you ‘adopted’.

 

Basically a merger between a pre-existing house and a clan of Sartarite refugees. In the long run, possibly a slightly more respectable origin for the Sartarite house than starting with their Sartarite identity, separate from any Imarjan connection.

10 hours ago, jajagappa said:

2. Your efforts were rewarded.  Add 1 to your Communication Resource and 1 check to the Ambitious and Generous Virtues.  You have gained one of the Sarli clans as your own client hall.  Name the clan and add the ability Patron of Clan {X}. 

 

So basically, a lot of my questions aim at these instances of "Clan {X}".

Is there such a thing as "second storey houses" (clans, guilds, whatever) - independent factions too poor or too lacking in influence to have some claim on the soil of Nochet?

10 hours ago, jajagappa said:

3. You carefully waited, but have yet to see benefit from your actions.  Add 1 check to the Traditional, Miserly, and Cautious Virtues.

4. Your strategy failed and you lost an old privilege to the newcomers.  If you lived in Sarli, you have been forced to move to either Tershis or Kalava.  Add 1 check to the Miserly and Vengeful Virtues. You have a particular hatred of one of the Sarli clans who is now your enemy.  Name the clan and add the flaw: Hate Clan {X}.

So option 4 also hits our Clan {X}.

Basically, a Sartarite Clan {X} would have to choose a patron from either an earlier establishment of Heortlings, a direct client-patron relationship to one of the houses in Nochet plus a hostility or two to houses that feel deprived of earlier privileges, or a significant loss of identity through a merger with an Esrolian House but resulting access to the Imarjan traditions.

This looks a bit like there are quite a few newcomer clans who fail to make such connections, and who end up either as unrecognized communities or being absorbed by existing houses piecemeal. Unrecognized communities do include beggars, thieves, bandits, mercenaries, unaffiliated entertainers etc., but then I suppose those would have to face a similarly established counterpart of natives.

The overseas communities would have been established post 1586, mainly by House Delaineos, I guess, although second tier houses of other Enfranchised Houses would have been "suggested" to invest in exotic clients, too. I expect that little of this will have gone to the established Sarli merchants for lack of influence in those quarters.

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3 hours ago, Joerg said:

So they would still live under Belintar's rulership, but not under that travesty of a king?

Such clans would have been sceptical of Belintar's rulership, and the houses welcoming them most likely would at least have been willing to hedge a bet against Belintar's long-term success. So it might be interesting to see which houses those were, and whether they burnt their fingers.

Ostensibly yes, though perhaps they came simply to take advantage of more opportunity in Nochet (and with less trouble than colonizing Sartar).

Here are a few from the Sarli Clan "Triads": among themselves, the clans of Sarli reference themselves by the so-called Clan Triads.

The Three Old Clans:  arrived 3 centuries ago following Belintar

  • Calm Waters
  • Birch Staff
  • Bronze Scale

The Three Rich Clans: are blessed by great wealth (due primarily to control/tolls on the routes out of the Great Market)

  • Bronze Scale
  • Fresh Rain
  • Sunheart

The Three Market Clans: noted for their interests in the Great Market (closely associated to the cult of Issaries)

  • Bronze Scale
  • Green Pot
  • Calm Waters

Note that the overlap reinforces the idea that some who have been in Sarli a long time have deep roots and strong connections in Nochet.

The Three Troubled Clans: arrived in the Times of Troubles (they carried many feuds and grudges from Sartar)

  • Black Crab
  • Five Rings
  • Urvarestra
3 hours ago, Joerg said:

Ok. I wonder about the urban diet, anyway. Given the presence of the fisherfolk, I expect a certain portion of protein to come in the shape of sea-food, whether clams, crabs, or fish. Geese appear to be an important factor in food, too, both for the eggs and for the meat. Pigs are another companion beast of Ernalda well suited for the city. Sheep and dairy on the other hand would be rather under-represented in the direct neighborhood of the city. Cattle less so since you need to breed oxen on a regular schedule to keep plowing the land and doing overland transportation.

Yes, seafood from both bay and river.  Waterfowl including geese and ducks (but not Ducks).  Pigs are very common in Nochet, and many wander free in the streets.  Sheep and cattle are brought in during particular seasons for slaughter at the great stockyards in Tendayvora.  Goats can be found in Meldektown.

Nochetites love pies: fish pies, shellfish pies, meat pies, fruited pies, and other varieties of and variations on pies that can be found with a whole range of spices both native and brought from places such as Teshnos and Fonrit.

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

The farmland north of the Lyksos may have shorter routes into the city than the farms to the west.

Farmers to the west follow paths towards the Lyksos and then into the city via the two western gates.  Farmers to the north are dependent on river/ferry crossings.  Farmers to the south come in through Meldektown and the south gate.

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

land-owner has great influence over them

"Land owner" implies a feudal arrangement that doesn't exist in Nochet.  Houses have claims over tribute from those occupying (or building) upon particular lands from the Godtime.  Whether they can enforce such is another question.

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

Any Orlanth temples besides Orlanth Hill will be sponsored by local houses, then?

There are no "Orlanth" temples in the city.  There are temples to cults such as Heler or Barntar, or the collective Lightbringer's Temple, but not to Orlanth.  Ernalda keeps her husband at arm's length.

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

I was assuming that quite a few of the Sartarite houses would have male heads of the houses, but that those would be treated like master guildsmen rather than the equivalent of a house's "mother" when dealing with native houses.

That's reasonably correct.  For instance, the Yelmalion houses are headed by male chieftains, and they control the hiring of Yelmalion mercenaries, but most of the neighborhood issues are handled by their spouses through the local Society of the Cloth (women-controlled weaving 'guilds', of which there are around 19 in the city).

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

independent factions too poor or too lacking in influence to have some claim on the soil of Nochet?

If you are a family without a clan in Nochet, you will likely be prey to someone, so if you don't make arrangements with a neighborhood house, you'll likely need temple support and protection.  And odds are you'll gravitate to wherever that temple is based.  Now that could be a Lanbril cult or some 'guild', though in both cases those are still likely to be structured as 'houses' or extended adopted 'clans'.  

If you can't manage that, you'll likely either become beggars in the city or dwellers in the Riverside slums west of the city or bandits eking out a living in the marshes south of the city.

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4 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Ostensibly yes, though perhaps they came simply to take advantage of more opportunity in Nochet (and with less trouble than colonizing Sartar).

Their means of arrival would be interesting. The route north of the Shadow Plateau seems the least likely, so they must have crossed Choralinthor Bay, either on ships, or using the Fish Road. I guess at least one clan/house should have a Fish Road migration in its history.

 

4 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Here are a few from the Sarli Clan "Triads": among themselves, the clans of Sarli reference themselves by the so-called Clan Triads.

The Three Old Clans:  arrived 3 centuries ago following Belintar

  • Calm Waters
  • Birch Staff
  • Bronze Scale

The Three Rich Clans: are blessed by great wealth (due primarily to control/tolls on the routes out of the Great Market)

  • Bronze Scale
  • Fresh Rain
  • Sunheart

The Three Market Clans: noted for their interests in the Great Market (closely associated to the cult of Issaries)

  • Bronze Scale
  • Green Pot
  • Calm Waters

Note that the overlap reinforces the idea that some who have been in Sarli a long time have deep roots and strong connections in Nochet.

The Three Troubled Clans: arrived in the Times of Troubles (they carried many feuds and grudges from Sartar)

  • Black Crab
  • Five Rings
  • Urvarestra

Duh - that info has been under my nose.

But it still doesn't tell us who their sponsors or patrons were (and are), and whether some emancipated themselves from former patrons, or moved upward in the pyramid of patron-client relations.

4 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Yes, seafood from both bay and river.  Waterfowl including geese and ducks (but not Ducks). 

Except in Trolltown? :P

Burial by troll might be a form of post-mortal punishment, even if the bones are returned.

4 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Pigs are very common in Nochet, and many wander free in the streets.  Sheep and cattle are brought in during particular seasons for slaughter at the great stockyards in Tendayvora. 

Probably from quite far away, too.

4 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Goats can be found in Meldektown.

Meldektown has sort of an open border to the Antones Estates, so their goats are likely to be found intruding there.

4 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Nochetites love pies: fish pies, shellfish pies, meat pies, fruited pies, and other varieties of and variations on pies that can be found with a whole range of spices both native and brought from places such as Teshnos and Fonrit.

Pies in bread crust and pies in clay crust?

4 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Farmers to the west follow paths towards the Lyksos and then into the city via the two western gates.  Farmers to the north are dependent on river/ferry crossings.  Farmers to the south come in through Meldektown and the south gate.

Farmers from the north are dependent on water traffic, but that water traffic may bring their goods to markets that are far from the city gates.

And in case of dairy or eggs, they might be at an advantage over the farmers having to take the overland approach. But then the fisherfolk are also a good source for seabird eggs.

4 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

"Land owner" implies a feudal arrangement that doesn't exist in Nochet.  Houses have claims over tribute from those occupying (or building) upon particular lands from the Godtime.  Whether they can enforce such is another question.

So who decided whether a plot may be built over? Modern Nochet has only one area inside the walls where there is open ground, and that is after Hendira and her Lunar allies razed a lot of the previous (presumably anything but well-to-do) quarter there.

I wonder whether Hendira had precedents for uprooting a significant part of the population of the city by force and/or decree. Perhaps there was a recompensation program, with diminishing recompensation the longer the inhabitants held out.

And I do wonder how the new landlords got rid of the buildings occupying their prospective temple grounds. Systematic "unbuilding", demonstration of Lunar siege engines, or how?

 

How secure can a House be of the "ownership" of their estates?

 

We hit upon the question of reclamation of burial ground in an earlier discussion - there is a map showing the Antones Estates encroaching the Argan Argar and Esrola temple.

4 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

That's reasonably correct.  For instance, the Yelmalion houses are headed by male chieftains, and they control the hiring of Yelmalion mercenaries, but most of the neighborhood issues are handled by their spouses through the local Society of the Cloth (women-controlled weaving 'guilds', of which there are around 19 in the city).

Basically local consensus-generating meetings for neighborhoods?

4 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

If you are a family without a clan in Nochet, you will likely be prey to someone, so if you don't make arrangements with a neighborhood house, you'll likely need temple support and protection.  And odds are you'll gravitate to wherever that temple is based.  Now that could be a Lanbril cult or some 'guild', though in both cases those are still likely to be structured as 'houses' or extended adopted 'clans'.  

So even the most destitute and anti-social elements will present a House-like front to the rest of the city.

4 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

If you can't manage that, you'll likely either become beggars in the city or dwellers in the Riverside slums west of the city or bandits eking out a living in the marshes south of the city.

I wonder about that. Is Riverside all "slums"? I would have expected some quite respectable neighborhoods for boatfolk plying the riverine trade up to New Crystal City, including the main grain import of the city.

 

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51 minutes ago, Joerg said:

 

So who decided whether a plot may be built over? Modern Nochet has only one area inside the walls where there is open ground, and that is after Hendira and her Lunar allies razed a lot of the previous (presumably anything but well-to-do) quarter there.

I wonder whether Hendira had precedents for uprooting a significant part of the population of the city by force and/or decree. Perhaps there was a recompensation program, with diminishing recompensation the longer the inhabitants held out.

And I do wonder how the new landlords got rid of the buildings occupying their prospective temple grounds. Systematic "unbuilding", demonstration of Lunar siege engines, or how?

 

It's next to the Fish market and seems to be among the most ancient parts of the city, curiously enough. Probably a Water-cult affiliated slum, I think... 

Edit: the Maps in Esrolia, the GS book, are schematic, but suggest there was building there continuously from the period following the Green Age. The choice of site was perhaps based on some innate power in the landscape there but perhaps the original village was not under the protection of a House, being in a sense, older than the Houses, with its own peculiar fishy customs... (I'm not an expert on Esrolia, so maybe I'm way off the mark).

Edited by jeffjerwin

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The area extends inland quite a bit, and while the Pelaskites (plus River Folk) probably form the second-largest minority in Greater Nochet and play an important role in constructing and crewing the city's navy and trading fleet, they might be less protected than regular houses when it comes to their ties to the land they live on. (I wonder how much their burial traditions have been adapted to use of the Antones Estates.)

However, I had the impression that the general neighborhood was one of - possibly overcrowded - insula-like multi-storied houses on both sides of the road before space was claimed for the Lunar temple, and I suspect that many of those would have been under the management of mid- to upper-tier houses of Nochet.

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4 hours ago, Joerg said:

Their means of arrival would be interesting. The route north of the Shadow Plateau seems the least likely, so they must have crossed Choralinthor Bay, either on ships, or using the Fish Road. I guess at least one clan/house should have a Fish Road migration in its history.

Yes, I think crossing the Choralinthor is most likely, probably from Karse or Sklar.  I like the Fish Road migration story.  Most likely the Calm Waters clan, which is also one of the earliest to arrive.

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

But it still doesn't tell us who their sponsors or patrons were (and are), and whether some emancipated themselves from former patrons, or moved upward in the pyramid of patron-client relations.

No, it doesn't.  But if everything is spelled out, then it doesn't leave much for GM's to plug their own stories into.

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

Probably from quite far away, too.

Valadon is likely main point for the North March.  Nochet will receive herds coming from the area south of Valadon and west of the Shadow Plateau.  They will also draw from the west, but so will Ezel.  Likely some typical divide between the two based on whether a given clan needs more Wealth (Nochet) or more magical benefit (Ezel).

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

Pies in bread crust

bread crust typically given the grain supplies.

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

Modern Nochet has only one area inside the walls where there is open ground

The former Moontown is the most accessible/available area.  But there's also a certain amount of rebuilding, adding-on, expanding into former 'gardens', etc.  As for who decides, well, you try to build and see who comes around asking for 'protection' tribute, or demanding tribute or duties, etc.  If you've got enough muscle (physical, magical, monetary) then fine.  If not, well perhaps your building 'accidentally' collapses.

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

How secure can a House be of the "ownership" of their estates?

That's why you build a strong network of relationships, obligations, duties, marriage alliances, etc.  

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

Basically local consensus-generating meetings for neighborhoods?

Think Bedouin tribal politics crossed with mafia-style families.  It is almost all local consensus-generation.  The Queen's power is mostly in maintaining the religious rituals and Ernalda's will.  

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

I would have expected some quite respectable neighborhoods for boatfolk plying the riverine trade up to New Crystal City, including the main grain import of the city.

That's in the Tershis district within the walls.  Or Ferrytown across the way in part of old Forenes where they can charge a pretty clack to cross.  Now, the Sky River Temple is outside the walls in Rivertown, so there are certainly priests living there, but they are largely drawn from houses within the city.

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

And I do wonder how the new landlords got rid of the buildings occupying their prospective temple grounds. Systematic "unbuilding", demonstration of Lunar siege engines, or how?

The new Lunar Temple does/did not occupy that much space.  But they would have used a combination of earth magics, controlled earth elementals, and contracted dwarf help.  And, yes, maybe the Lunars brought in some magics and techniques too.

The razing of Moontown after Hendira's fall by Samastina was much more destructive and I think drew on a range of elemental powers including sea/tidal magics to weaken foundations along the bay, earth powers to break the Lunar Temple, and the powers of Veskarthan (Lodril) and his wildfire to burn and consume many buildings.

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Once more I exhume a dead topic, sorry for my necromantic streak (but what is Delecti about if not picking up the best!!??), but this discussion was fascinating! It often refers to an ongoing campaign or some kind of sourcebook by @jajagappa, is it something published, that one can read on a blog, or an ongoing editorial project?

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1 hour ago, Minlister said:

Once more I exhume a dead topic, sorry for my necromantic streak (but what is Delecti about if not picking up the best!!??), but this discussion was fascinating! It often refers to an ongoing campaign or some kind of sourcebook by @jajagappa, is it something published, that one can read on a blog, or an ongoing editorial project?

Harald (aka @jajagappa) runs his campaigns on the RPGGeek web site in the format of Play-by-Forum games these days (I'm a lucky participant in two of them 😍). So I guess, what you're looking for is his Nochet Campaign.

In addition you can find the Nochet, City of Queens page on glorantha.com. I may be wrong, but I was under the impression, that the Nochet map on this page is from @jajagappa too ...

  • Thanks 2

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While we are worshipping at the altar of Vivamort, I have a suggestion. The bronze age concept of guest friendship could help explain why Sartarites came to Nochet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenia_(Greek) It is way creating hereditary obligations between groups, for instance   Diomedes and Glaucus meat during the Trojan war, Diomedes ask about lineage and discovers that Glaucus and his father where guest friends. So instead of fighting   Diomedes and Glaucus exchange amour and parted peacabley.

In Gloranthan terms, a political house in Nochet would have guest friendship relationship with a tribe or clan in Sartar.   The Sartite side could  be used as place to toughen up husbands and children or as place of refuge when the risk of assasination is high. The Sartarites would also be under obligation to protect merchants of the Nochet house active in Sartar.  The same obligations would be on the Nochet side, with added  bonus of a dozen  or so battle hardened Carls led by a Windlord adds a certain weight to moral arguments in Nochet.  

 

 

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4 hours ago, Minlister said:

an ongoing campaign or some kind of sourcebook

The in-game thread for that campaign is here: Nochet Campaign

Unfortunately we had dropped to one player in the midst of our second adventure so the campaign went on hiatus.

2 hours ago, Oracle said:

that the Nochet map on this page is from @jajagappa too …

It is. 🙂

3 hours ago, Minlister said:

is it something published

Not yet! As noted in the report on items in development from the recent Eternal Con: http://2ndage.blogspot.com/

Q: Can you give us a heads-up regarding the Nochet book?
A: The book is in preparation, being written by 5 different authors.

15 minutes ago, albinoboo said:

a political house in Nochet would have guest friendship relationship with a tribe or clan in Sartar.

And marriages!  

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Not yet! 

Excellent!!

Good luck with the work! Five authors! Won't be easy! Forseeable walking dead-line, but certainly worth the wait!

 

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