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jeffjerwin

Orin Jistil and the Skull Ruins

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I have discovered this EWF and earlier city seems to have three distinct canonical locations:

In WF 15 it is shown both at the confluence of the Creek and the Stream and described as being Delecti's Isle.

In the GtG in the Second Council map it is the Skull Ruins.

In KoS it seems to agree with the map in WF 15 but not with Delecti's Ruins...

(All this to figure out what the Skull Ruins' history was). 

I realize that real world city names sometimes migrate, and that this could have happened, particularly if the wyter was attached to something moveable. Still...

 

Regarding the Skull Ruins, it appears from the old HeroWars books that it was created during the Storm Age after Orlanth slew the Stone Dragon, which was courting his mother. It is one of the five locations associated with the Puppeteer Troop in Dragon Pass. The ruins are built on top of the skull... The trolls seem to find the ruins funny for some reason.

The fact that an otherwise unknown Earth culture was associated with Engoli Fort, a little north of it (WF 15) and shards with indecipherable writing were found in the area near the Fort suggests to me that an extinct people lived here. It's so close to the Storm steadings around Kero Fin, however, that I would think they would be a refugee people adopted during the Storm/Darkness Ages and later wiped out or assimilated.

Any theories or facts I'm missing...?

 

Edit: It also is not an area claimed by a Vingkotling or Heortling tribe in the Second Age period - it's a neutral area.

Edited by jeffjerwin

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1 hour ago, jeffjerwin said:

I have discovered this EWF and earlier city seems to have three distinct canonical locations:

In WF 15 it is shown both at the confluence of the Creek and the Stream and described as being Delecti's Isle.

In the GtG in the Second Council map it is the Skull Ruins.

In KoS it seems to agree with the map in WF 15 but not with Delecti's Ruins...

The WF 15 map p72 is for the Battle of Night and Day circa 379 while the Second Council Map (Guide p715) is for a century before.  Plenty of time to move the spirit of Orin Jisteel from the Skull Ruins to Denkarst.

 

1 hour ago, jeffjerwin said:

The fact that an otherwise unknown Earth culture was associated with Engoli Fort, a little north of it (WF 15) and shards with indecipherable writing were found in the area near the Fort suggests to me that an extinct people lived here. It's so close to the Storm steadings around Kero Fin, however, that I would think they would be a refugee people adopted during the Storm/Darkness Ages and later wiped out or assimilated.

Try the Rich Home culture (Name from Eleven Lights p129) in what is now Snakepipe Hollow from where Baroshi comes from.

 

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Edit: I accidentally deleted this post. I blame Eurmal... Damn you Trickster!

I referred in the original post to Orin Jistil being a name related to Jisteel, downstream...

I was inclined to agree with Jajagapa's association of the On Jorri with Orin Jistil - or I was, until the similarity to the Tawari bull hsunchen became apparent. (- by that I mean the Enjoralini ~ On Jorri)

Orin Jistil as Skull Ruins might be associated with a Earth cult as Aroka is connected with a possible animist-draconic Water Cult nearby. The first Dragonslaying is also nearby... at Dragonspine. All in all, Orlanth is described as killing rival 'draconic' powers. Stone Dragon was a suitor for his mother, who Orlanth possibly slew as a semi-Oedipal act of rebellion.

I speculated on the true geography being associated with the animists of Valon.

I really wish I could remember the rest of what I wrote.

I think the Ginijji civilization of Rich Home is distinct from Orin Jistil/Skull Ruins, as it is specifically associated with the Snake Pipe. That area, interestingly, is connected with Maran Gor, the mother of the pseudo-draconic dinosaurs, who, by a bit of a stretch, might be seen as the children of Maran with the Stone Dragon, Drathdraw...

 

Edited by jeffjerwin
typoes
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Now, one of the reasons I'm exploring this is because I'm taking notes for the Puppeteers, who gather at Skull Ruins along with a few other sites all in the central or northeastern part of Dragon Pass, presumably for their High Holy Day...

The other sites are the Falling Ruins, a site in the Stinking Forest in the Spider Vale [Aramite], the Smoking Ruins, and Too Far [former Aramite territory]. These overlap with the Aramite and the Far Point areas, along with the Dragonspine proper.

I think Maran Gor, before she was a violent deity [i.e., before Orlanth slew Stone Dragon, if my reconstruction is at all good], might be linked to a Dancing Cult.

The Puppeeteers are a Green Age/Golden Age cult, I think, so they might actually worship Maran[a] as the girl-dancer rather than the goddess of earthquakes. Maran Gor is also connected with 'pig-dogs' and her sister is the Sow-goddess, Entrula-Ernalda, the Dawn Age goddess of the Aramites. Viz. [M]aran, Aram, and the goddess Orane, Orvano [viz. the Voria site next to the Bone Hills].

Now, if Baroshi is 'barley-man' his culture was probably originally agricultural, though the Aramites might have abandoned agriculture during the Great Darkness. 

Hence the Puppeteers might be a distant cousin-culture of the Tusk Riders in my reconstruction... as might be the original people of Enori, whose consort was the Vingkotling Varazi...

It's interesting to note that according to the BoHM, Donandar defended the Vingkotlings (around Kero Fin) from Kyger Litor [issuing, implicitly, from the Castle of Lead] by distracting her with music. I think this would be localized in the Skull Ruins area. Trolls do frequent it for drumming and 'laughing'...

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Also, there's the interesting fact that Baran, founder of the short-lived tribe that settled Alda-chur before the Dragonkill, called his citadel 'Baran Or'. I think it possible this was a fusion of the remnant people of the area - the 'Or' or 'Orin' with his own new clan (Baraning). If so, 'Jistil' might mean 'market', sacred meeting point, and the wyter - possible a megalith - may have been transported to the junction of the Creek and Engizzi by the Second Council...

Note Enori could be En-Ori, 'the Ori'.

There's also the possibility of connecting the Snake Pipe Dancers with a mystic dance ritual revived from the Ori/n people.

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Also, Orlanth the dragonslayer is called Orvanshagor. Which appears to include the same root as Orvano... The Orvano Hills was where Voria was traded to Turim the Giant in one of the 'Three Evil Trades' by 'the gods' (she seems to have been rescued however) (as Voria was born at the Dawn this story is clearly corrupt). This is oddly similar to the giant Aedin's marriage to the goddess of joy as payment for building Aedin's Wall (another name for the Dragonspine). We all know giants come from the Rockwoods, so the meeting place makes sense...

I think 'Orvan-' contains the same root as Or, Orin, and Or-lanth, and denotes his status as consort of Ora / [V]Oria, one of the prototypes of the Earth Queen Ernalda. As Orlanth in part became king of the gods by wedding the Earth Queen (rather than the other way around) we can rightly refer to him as 'Earth's Consort' as one of his primary titles.

As to what this has to do with music and dancing, well, weddings are a major excuse for parties. The wedding of Earth and Air is the proper moment for the combination of percussive music (Earth) and wind instruments/singing (Air).

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48 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

Maran[a] as the girl-dancer

Top post of the season. Much of the exegesis of the Troupe's WBRM description focused on the identity of the "dainty princess" when we should've spent some time trying to find the "pig sty" she walked across on the way to liberation. Dancing girl, shaking earth, pig goddess. And from there it's just a stroll to the land where every goose girl is really a swan in disguise, or can be. 

48 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

Ora / [V]Oria

Even more exciting!

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1 hour ago, jeffjerwin said:

Now, one of the reasons I'm exploring this is because I'm taking notes for the Puppeteers, who gather at Skull Ruins along with a few other sites all in the central or northeastern part of Dragon Pass, presumably for their High Holy Day...

The other sites are the Falling Ruins, a site in the Stinking Forest in the Spider Vale [Aramite], the Smoking Ruins, and Too Far [former Aramite territory]. These overlap with the Aramite and the Far Point areas, along with the Dragonspine proper.

I think Maran Gor, before she was a violent deity [i.e., before Orlanth slew Stone Dragon, if my reconstruction is at all good], might be linked to a Dancing Cult.

The Puppeeteers are a Green Age/Golden Age cult, I think, so they might actually worship Maran[a] as the girl-dancer rather than the goddess of earthquakes. Maran Gor is also connected with 'pig-dogs' and her sister is the Sow-goddess, Entrula-Ernalda, the Dawn Age goddess of the Aramites. Viz. [M]aran, Aram, and the goddess Orane, Orvano [viz. the Voria site next to the Bone Hills].

Now, if Baroshi is 'barley-man' his culture was probably originally agricultural, though the Aramites might have abandoned agriculture during the Great Darkness. 

Hence the Puppeteers might be a distant cousin-culture of the Tusk Riders in my reconstruction... as might be the original people of Enori, whose consort was the Vingkotling Varazi...

It's interesting to note that according to the BoHM, Donandar defended the Vingkotlings (around Kero Fin) from Kyger Litor [issuing, implicitly, from the Castle of Lead] by distracting her with music. I think this would be localized in the Skull Ruins area. Trolls do frequent it for drumming and 'laughing'...

I've finally gotten my hands on the Sourcebook, and it points out that the age/social status of the different Earth goddesses and their names are interchangeable in an odd sort of fashion. In a sense, when Ernalda was young she was Voria, and when she is old she will be Asrelia. Or maybe she is all three at once, or maybe Asrelia was Ernalda., etc. etc. The point is really to point at the Maiden-Mother-Crone trinity of the Earth goddesses, and, I think, to allude to the semi-pantheistic perspective of Earth deities, imho.

This leads me to the main point, which is that this could conceivably apply to Maran Gor as well - ie. she is the youthful dancer, the tempestuous earth shaker, and then whatever her crone aspect would be. Or it's her daughter, or she is her own daughter. You know, typical god-stuff - head-screwey, but nothing someone brought up with Trinitarian Christianity can't put their head around.

Anyway, just a little something to add to your very interesting reasoning and perspective - and cool story hook.

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5 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

I think the Ginijji civilization of Rich Home is distinct from Orin Jistil/Skull Ruins, as it is specifically associated with the Snake Pipe.

The specific association is that the hollow (created during the great darkness) is named after the Snake-pipe.  Yet in the actual temple, there's little to no sign of any snakepipe associations.  Given that the Skull Ruins are not far from Rich Home, there's little reason to insist they must be seperate civilizations.

 

 

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In Tibet, the mountain/landscape goddess is the Diamond-Sow Goddess, Vajravārāhī, who is almost always depicted dancing (or engaged in dance adjacent erotic activities).

The sow-headed Hindu goddess Varahi, who is her equivalent, is the head of the Matrikis, a column of dancing goddesses, slaughterers of demons...

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2 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The specific association is that the hollow (created during the great darkness) is named after the Snake-pipe.  Yet in the actual temple, there's little to no sign of any snakepipe associations.  Given that the Skull Ruins are not far from Rich Home, there's little reason to insist they must be seperate civilizations.

 

 

I think they're compatible, on second thought - note my reading of En-Ori as the 'The Ori', the queen of Orin Jistil/the Ornings.

If they are also the people who dwelt around Engoli Fort, then they were potters who had a now-vanished system of writing. Can they be identified with one of the orphaned peoples in the Clan Questionnaire?

Edited by jeffjerwin

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2 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Maran Gor is also connected with 'pig-dogs'

She is?  The Bestiary p152 says nothing about Maran Gor and even denies that they are either pigs or dogs.

2 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

and her sister is the Sow-goddess, Entrula-Ernalda, the Dawn Age goddess of the Aramites.

No.  The Aramites and the Harandings were and are separate tribes.  The Harandings lived in Pig Hollow in Kethaela while the Aramites lived in Dragon Pass.  

 

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3 minutes ago, metcalph said:

She is?  The Bestiary p152 says nothing about Maran Gor and even denies that they are either pigs or dogs.

No.  The Aramites and the Harandings were and are separate tribes.  The Harandings lived in Pig Hollow in Kethaela while the Aramites lived in Dragon Pass.  

 

Pig-dogs, Arcane Lore, p.24. Specifically associated with Maran Gor and the Snake Pipe Hollow.

So who is the sow goddess that Aram worshipped? (Glorantha Sourcebook, p.130)

Edited by jeffjerwin

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2 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Also, Orlanth the dragonslayer is called Orvanshagor. Which appears to include the same root as Orvano... The Orvano Hills was where Voria was traded to Turim the Giant in one of the 'Three Evil Trades' by 'the gods' (she seems to have been rescued however) (as Voria was born at the Dawn this story is clearly corrupt).

We don't know where Orvano Hill is though.  

 

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2 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

So who is the sow goddess that Aram worshipped? (Glorantha Sourcebook, p.130)

The mother of Gouger (Glorantha Bestiary p70)

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Just now, metcalph said:

We don't know where Orvano Hill is though.  

 

yes we do... it's in the Sartar Companion map of Northern Sartar. south of Chalkman Vale.

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5 minutes ago, metcalph said:

 

The mother of Gouger (Glorantha Bestiary p70)

Still, the Aramites are described as originally Orlanthi (GtG p.711). This would require that they did not assimilate the sow-goddess to an Earth divinity, but instead distinguished her from the other consorts of Orlanth... one of whom is actually identified as a pig goddess. (I think it improbable that Orlanth's consort would not be their totemic pig goddess) 

Note that this Earth Sow Goddess might be quite different in characteristics, worship, and symbolism than the goddess of the Harandings. Indeed, she may have Darkness associations from the start.

Edited by jeffjerwin

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2 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Also, Orlanth the dragonslayer is called Orvanshagor. Which appears to include the same root as Orvano... The Orvano Hills was where Voria was traded to Turim the Giant in one of the 'Three Evil Trades' by 'the gods' (she seems to have been rescued however) (as Voria was born at the Dawn this story is clearly corrupt). This is oddly similar to the giant Aedin's marriage to the goddess of joy as payment for building Aedin's Wall (another name for the Dragonspine). We all know giants come from the Rockwoods, so the meeting place makes sense...

Dragon Pass: Land of Doom introduces a strangely named tribe called the Orvantes, which has the same name form as the three Summer Tribes of the Vingkotlings (Orgovaltes, Koroltes, Vestantes). I am inclined tth o see Orvantes as a mis-spelling or mis-pronunciation of Orgovaltes.

 

I am not sure whether a Theyalan word stem and a Pelorian word stem like "or" necessarily have to share a meaning.

Orlanth is the mountain storm, and I am sort of inclined to associate the "or" with mountain. But that's falling into the same trap as I warned of in the previous paragraph - the term "orogenesis" for "formation of mountains" certainly influences this identification.

 

Doing Pelorian linguistics, I tend to think that Oria is really O-ria, with similar forms in e.g. Denegeria, Orogeria, Naveria - perhaps meaning "-land".

 

 

2 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

I think 'Orvan-' contains the same root as Or, Orin, and Or-lanth, and denotes his status as consort of Ora / [V]Oria, one of the prototypes of the Earth Queen Ernalda. As Orlanth in part became king of the gods by wedding the Earth Queen (rather than the other way around) we can rightly refer to him as 'Earth's Consort' as one of his primary titles.

If "or" stands for mountain (which is an aspect both of dragons and of giants), we also find it in the name of Orlanths sister Inora.

(Gonn Orta probably is a "pun name" similar to good-on-ya, the current Kralori emperor, possibly "gone out of...", which is why I hesitate to make linguistic comparisons like G*n*rt or pointing out the "or" in Orta.)

Yes, Orlanth established his kingship of the world by wedding the Earth Queen.

2 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

As to what this has to do with music and dancing, well, weddings are a major excuse for parties. The wedding of Earth and Air is the proper moment for the combination of percussive music (Earth) and wind instruments/singing (Air).

I thought that percussive music was the realm of Darkness, with Hombobobom the Drummer (and shamaness) the first such musician. Such a darkness connection also exists for Shargash (whose drummers are part of his ceremonial warfare facing the advance of Oslira).

If wind instruments are Storm/Air, and string instruments (derived from the bow?) Fire/Light, we have too elements without clear musical instruments.

Earth instruments appear to include bells and chimes,both clay and metal, which I wouldn't quite include under percussion. and in case of chimes as dancing implements as much as as instruments.

The music of water may be dripping, the rippling and burbling of animated water, the whooshing of waves.

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36 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

Still, the Aramites are described as originally Orlanthi (GtG p.711).

What is said there is "They were hunter-gatherers led by the Hero Aram Ya Udram and worshiped Orlanth." while the Harandings are described on the same page as  "hunter-gatherer people who worshiped Orlanth and Ketha".  A fairly significant difference I think.

Whatever Goddess Aram worshipped in the Great Darkness has been subsumed by the worship of Gouger and his sacrifice to the Bloody Earth,

 

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1 hour ago, metcalph said:

No.  The Aramites and the Harandings were and are separate tribes.  The Harandings lived in Pig Hollow in Kethaela while the Aramites lived in Dragon Pass.  

Gouger was sent north by the vengeful earth (Kethaa?), and it is possible that Aram, the hero who slew it, followed it from the south. The Aramites are first established in Dragon Pass in the Silver Age, with Aram having won the Necklace of Kero Fin.

The Harandings of the Dawn Age are a separate tribe from the Aramites, but there is a good possibility that they share the same roots. I tend to assume a kinship between the Harandings and the Entruli, too. 

Edited by Joerg
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58 minutes ago, metcalph said:

What is said there is "They were hunter-gatherers led by the Hero Aram Ya Udram and worshiped Orlanth." while the Harandings are described on the same page as  "hunter-gatherer people who worshiped Orlanth and Ketha".  A fairly significant difference I think.

Whatever Goddess Aram worshipped in the Great Darkness has been subsumed by the worship of Gouger and his sacrifice to the Bloody Earth,

 

That's true.

 

This is pretty speculative, but I'm trying to construct a moderately plausible discussion of the non-Vingkotling peoples of Storm-Age Ginijji and vicinity. From a game perspective, the wyters of the Snake Pipe Dancer hero band partially derive from what remains of them.

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1 hour ago, Joerg said:

The music of water may be dripping, the rippling and burbling of animated water, the whooshing of waves.

Sea music: Sea-shells..., the conch-horn... the sounds of whales?

In terms of Or- meaning mountain, it's also true that basically mountains are fundamentally made of Earth (a different sort of Earth than the fertile lowlands, but also Earth at its most sublime and terrible). Hence it's possible that 'divine mountain' = Earth, World. In fact, the Spike was equated with the world/Earth at one point... So we may be looking at a fuzzy concept.

K-or, G-or means 'terrible, angry Earth'. This is pretty established; it may be an elided compound word. Perhaps W-or, V-or could mean 'sweet, maiden Earth'

Orendana is 'Queen Earth', Ernalda as queen of the Gods... 

GtG p.119 describes the temple in Snake Pipe Hollow as 'the womb of the Earth Mother' (err... it is in a cave at the end of a canyon we may note). This may be Gata, whose daughter is Ernalda later took up that status... Another of her daughters is Kero Fin, who is very close by. Note also that the BoHM describes the area east of Kero Fin as a part of Ernaldela, which makes sense mythically if it remained strongly tied to the Earth Rune, even though we might think more of Kethaela nowadays.

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1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Dragon Pass: Land of Doom introduces a strangely named tribe called the Orvantes, which has the same name form as the three Summer Tribes of the Vingkotlings (Orgovaltes, Koroltes, Vestantes). I am inclined tth o see Orvantes as a mis-spelling or mis-pronunciation of Orgovaltes.

Well, they were in the 'North Vale' of Hendrikiland (Garanvuli lands), though that did border on the Orgovaltes territories.

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2 hours ago, Joerg said:

... Earth instruments appear to include bells and chimes,both clay and metal, which I wouldn't quite include under percussion. and in case of chimes as dancing implements as much as as instruments.

You would, however, be mistaken in that.

They are usually played with hammers and mallets and similar implements.

In a symphony, they sit with the drums and other percussive instruments.

Wikipedia has a list of percussion instruments, and bells & chimes are listed there; if you look them up directly,  they are explicitly categorized as such.

 

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