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Crowdsourced Old Characters and 1610s Family History

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7 hours ago, Joerg said:

You could put this into a single table. I also note that your tables lack the "your ancestor died of other causes" option.

Yeah, those are absent in the main book from the really important events. Look at 1582 and 1602. I should add them (shouldn't I?) I suppose, if we don't have an anchoring set of generations. On the to do list.

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Random death is a problem - say I pick my character's maternal grandfather as the main inspiration in his life, and he dies of something random in the first roll of his history. So... I probably wouldn't have picked that grandparent would I!

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39 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Random death is a problem - say I pick my character's maternal grandfather as the main inspiration in his life, and he dies of something random in the first roll of his history. So... I probably wouldn't have picked that grandparent would I!

Yeah. Also we have four grandparents... at least, if you don't have some sort of interesting step-grandfathers, mother's uncle, what not, history (which is entirely normal for Heortlings... and in fact the norm for Esrolians, I think). So there's room for one or more to die in some epic event and the lineage to keep rolling along. 'Grandfather' is anyone you meaningfully call by that name. Just fudge it and say, grandfather's brother, whom he always talked about, who died by accident so grandfather came to be unexpectedly the head of that generation?

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Or perhaps it was the death that made them significant to you. My first character-gen rollthrough had the 'significant parent' die on the first year of rolling for them, "killed in a magical ceremony". So for the sake of seeing what the parent's life threw up, I decided the other parent would get to roll instead. And they, too, died in 1608, in a magical ceremony... So the significant parent event was that the character was orphaned at a very early age.

But, like Traveller's character generation system, there's plenty of room for fudging in the interest of interest.

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The Trollkiller War [1551-1564]

 

After Sarotar’s death in 1546 and the murder of Queen Norina in 1551, the House of Sartar and the House of Norinel were at war.

When the Norinel requested aid from the Kitori, who were their ancient kin, against Sartar and the friends of Sartar, the feud spread to Hendrikiland.

 

Tarkalor had already befriended the Yelmalion prophet Monrogh and had visited the Volsaxi. He proposed a war against the trolls and the troll-friends.

 

The struggle for power in the Holy Country preoccupied Belintar, and he was unable to directly intervene… the Volsaxi would not recognize his sovereignty. Tarkalor’s allies were bolstered by the oppression of the Kitori, who had destroyed whole clans of the Hendriki. The rebels called the Night Jumpers led the Light Sons and many Sartarite swordthanes from Troll-hating clans into the Troll Woods, and Whitewall was rid of the rule of Darkness.

 

Participating Homelands: Sartar, Hendrikiland, Esrolia

 

Modifiers: Hendrikiland +10 to roll, Esrolia -5 to roll.

1-8      A normal year

9-11    Died of other causes see Random Death Table

12-20An ancestor participated in the Trollkiller War

 

The Trollkiller War

 

Which side were you on?: Most Sartarites and Hendriki fought the Kitori, or fled them. A few Hendriki, many Esrolians, and very few Sartarites fought for the Kitori, honoring ancient obligations and alliances. Esrolians who aided Tarkalor were usually members or clients of rival houses to the Norinel, though dissident Norinel princesses were also active.

If your ancestor has a Darkness Rune, add +5 to their roll. If they are Esrolian, add an additional +5. Subtract 5 for Fire/Light runes.

1-15    Fought for Tarkalor

16-20Fought for the Kitori Queen.

 

Ordinary Exploits

Modifiers: Noble, Shaman, Priest, or Warrior +5

1-10    Ancestor survived the war. Gain Fear (trolls).

11-15             Ancestor was slain during the war. Gain Reputation +1d3%.

15-20Your ancestor was an active participant in one of the remarkable events of the long war.

 

Extraordinary Exploits

Add +5 for Fire/Light Rune, if possessed. Subtract 5 for Darkness rune, if possessed.

1-3      Ancestor was present during the early Night Jumper skirmishes. Add +10% Darkness Rune.

4-7      Ancestor was present during the attack on the Kitori villages. Gain a family heirloom of Kitori make, containing a Darkwall or Silence matrix.

8-11    Ancestor was slain by Zorak Zorani berserkers and their deathless thralls. Gain Fear (Undead) and Reputation +1d3%.

12-14Ancestor was present at the cleansing of Whitewall. Gain +10% Air rune.

15-17 Ancestor was part of Tarkalor’s personal hero band. Gain Loyalty (House of Sartar) and Reputation +1d3%.

18-20 Ancestor was recruited by Monrogh and learned Yelmalion mysteries. Add +10% Fire/Light rune and Reputation +1d3%.

Edited by jeffjerwin

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Most new players are going to ask "Who are the Kitori?" and most new GMs are gonna scratch their heads.  You should at least make a quick exposition of who the factions are.  Also, family histories come before rune affiliations.  I'd edit out the modifiers for runes.

Edited by Pentallion

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33 minutes ago, Pentallion said:

Most new players are going to ask "Who are the Kitori?" and most new GMs are gonna scratch their heads.  You should at least make a quick exposition of who the factions are.  Also, family histories come before rune affiliations.  I'd edit out the modifiers for runes.

On to do list.

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5 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

the House of Sartar and the House of Norinel were at war.

I think it gets more complicated than that.  You can see the antagonism between Queen Hendira (Norinel) and Jolerta (Delaeos) in the Prince of Sartar comic.

Queen Norina's successor is Queen Imarjira (Delaeos).  The Belintar who ascends in 1550 is Imarjira's brother, also of House Delaeos.  However, there is still a Reverend Grandmother in Nochet at this time who is the former Queen Brengala (Norinel).  So in Nochet, there is an active feud between Norinel and Delaeos (the origin of the Red Earth/Old Earth factions present through Queen Hendira's reign).  The House of Sartar gets pulled into this feud due to the love of Sarotar for Arkilia (GS p.22 "Sarotar loved Arkillia, called “the Sad Lady” in the play, the daughter of Queen Norina of Esrolia).  So Arkilia is House Norinel.  Sarotar is killed by the other suitors (quite possibly including Imarjira's brother, the eventual Belintar), but since Arkilia is Queen Norina's daughter, the suitors cannot be Norinel.  Therefore, when "Sarotar’s brother and cousin took bloody vengeance against his murderer", they are either targeting House Delaeos, or some third house (either House Oranaeo or Evaeo; House Delainaeo is busy with planning for Dormal).  Figuring the House of Sartar target a third house (who was trying to increase their odds of having a future queen), then House Delaeos nicely steps in to become Belintar (since the brother is clearly not killed in the reprisal) and Imarjira finagles the Queenship.  Presumably, Imarjira and Belintar are then working to gain some alliance with House of Sartar.  If House Norinel, though, goes to ally the Kitori, and Imarjira is clearly hostile to Houes Norinel, then maneuvering Tarkalor to destroy the Kitori would fit.

As Imarjira is forced to abdicate in 1564, there's probably been a turnover in Belintar somewhat before that point, leaving Imarjira vulnerable, though she lives until 1603 so still has considerable power.  House Delainaeo is in ascendancy from 1564 until 1610, and get incredibly wealthy following Dormal's expeditions.

I don't think any of that necessarily negates the Trollkiller results, but may mean there's more going on beneath the surface in Esrolia and through the Holy Country.

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15 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Presumably, Imarjira and Belintar are then working to gain some alliance with House of Sartar.  If House Norinel, though, goes to ally the Kitori, and Imarjira is clearly hostile to Houes Norinel, then maneuvering Tarkalor to destroy the Kitori would fit.

So something like "Queen Imarjira in Esrolia's power was circumscribed by the influence of Grandmother Brengala, whose house Norinel had had a stranglehold on the queendom of Nochet for several reigns. Norinel had been the house of the Sad Lady, Arkilia, and were traditional allies of the Kitori, who were Shadow Lords like Kimantor, the husband of Norinel herself. The Shadow Lords combined Darkness and Man in a new way, so they were both Men and Trolls, and ruled the Troll Wood, receiving an ancient tribute promised to them by Heort himself from the Orlanthi of Sen Senrenen. Imarjira's rivals were bolstered by the support of the Dark Tribe, and so she sought their downfall. So Imarjira convinced the House of Sartar that House Norinel bore the primary responsibility for Sarotar's death, implying that they opposed his courtship of Arkilia and encouraged his rivals..."

(This also explains partially who the Kitori are/were). Of course the exact way Imarjira manipulated events is unclear but this is the most clear-cut chain of events.

Edited by jeffjerwin

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1 hour ago, jeffjerwin said:

So something like "Queen Imarjira in Esrolia's power was circumscribed by the influence of Grandmother Brengala, whose house Norinel had had a stranglehold on the queendom of Nochet for several reigns. Norinel had been the house of the Sad Lady, Arkilia, and were traditional allies of the Kitori, who were Shadow Lords like Kimantor, the husband of Norinel herself. The Shadow Lords combined Darkness and Man in a new way, so they were both Men and Trolls, and ruled the Troll Wood, receiving an ancient tribute promised to them by Heort himself from the Orlanthi of Sen Senrenen. Imarjira's rivals were bolstered by the support of the Dark Tribe, and so she sought their downfall. So Imarjira convinced the House of Sartar that House Norinel bore the primary responsibility for Sarotar's death, implying that they opposed his courtship of Arkilia and encouraged his rivals..."

(This also explains partially who the Kitori are/were). Of course the exact way Imarjira manipulated events is unclear but this is the most clear-cut chain of events.

Yes, that seems reasonable, and helps define the Kitori.

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My problem with this is the 1551 date for the start of the conflict, and the reason for that is the 1550 date for Dorasar settling Pavis, accompanied by Varthanis Brighthelm, an underling of Monrogh who brings a contingent of Yelmalians from Vanntar. That implies that Vanntar has already been taken from the Kitori by 1550.

Whitewall "falls" in 1560. And Saraskos gets born some time between the conquest of Vanntar and the liberation of Whitewall, indicating Tarkalor being active in the Grazelands.

This really is part of the ongoing Elmal-Yelmalio thread.

 

Events of that war do include joining the Night Jumpers (possibly even before Sarotar's Death - Tarkalor's involvement in the feud against the Kitori doesn't have to be triggered by the events in Nochet), the conquest of Vanntar, the binding of the enslaved Kitori as Ergeshi (a Dara Happan term meaning slave, see the explanation of Gods Wall III 18-20, Guide p.677). Possibly an old magic left behind by Palangio, and re-awakened by Monrogh?

 

Here's my try to give a short but fairly complete description of the Kitori, too long for inclusion in the family history, but maybe useful as a sidebar:

The Kitori are an ancient race of Darkness worshippers able to take on human, troll or shadow shape, in the image of the Only Old One who adopted the first humans and trolls who became Kitori in magical adoption. Tney used to be the representatives of the Kingdom of Night and collected the Shadow Tribute, an equal exchange of food, wares, magic and protection of humans and elder races around the Obsidian Palace, tailored to each group's means and needs at the onset of the Sliver Age before the Dawn. When on official missions, the Kitori wore a distinctive, troll-muzzle-shaped leaden mask, a grey cloak of goose feathers, and a stout spear, regardless which shape they had.

Palangio the Iron Vrok lifted the Shadow Tribute after he had conquered the Kingdom of Night for the Bright Empire. When Arkat liberated the lands and ended the Bright Empire, he re-instituted the Shadow Tribute, and expanded it in the north with his uz allies benefitting from the tribute of the northern humans. This was called Arkat's Command, and it was obeyed for over a century until the Orlanthi rose up against it in the Tax Slaughter. In the Kingdom of Night, the Kitori Shadowlords were weakened by this, too, and they became a tribe apparently of darkness humans and trolls living on, in and around the Shadow Plateau. After the Dragonkill, the Kitori expanded into the lands forbidden to humans north of the Crossline, and protected by that curse also dominated the Volsaxi living just south of that border. They held on to these lands even after Belintar slew the Only Old One, and it was Tarkalor's war who reduced their range to the Troll Woods (and presumably the Lead Hills and Shadow Plateau), with the valley of Vanntar occupied by the former Elmali dissidents from Old Sartar. The less magical of their folk who didn't manage to flee from their Vanntar home were enslaved by the Sun Domers and somehow bound to their human shape, and form the Ergeshi slave population of that land.

 

House Norinel may have the claim to have mothered the first Kitori, the son of the Only Old One who was murdered by Eurmal in the course of the Lightbringer's Quest in his betrayal of Orlanth deep in Hell. The causality in Norinel's hostility to Sarotar's advances might even be inverted - Tarkalor's support of Monrogh against the Kitori may have incited forces inside House Norinel to take steps against his half-brother's suit. Although the will of the Grandmother Bruvala is absolute law inside the House and also for its dependents, internal intrigue and special alliances with associate Houses or in this case the Kitori may have prevailed. It is not for nothing that Bruvala had de-throned two of her daughter queens, not just for ambition but also for disagreements about policy.

 

Bruvala, Brengala and Imarjira all are instrumental in the rise of Nochet from the ashes, not yet at the same size as Rhigos but reclaiming much of the area inside the old walls of Nochet. At some point, they relocate part of the sprawling Antones Estates out of the walled territory, e.g. around the Temple of Kimantor. Some interaction with the Blackmaw may have been involved, too.

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So, Joerg, you're arguing for a (starting) date in the 1540s?

The only other date for Pavis I've been able to discern is the implied Sartarite activity there in 1557+.

In The Coming Storm, it's a new settlement in 1557 (p.86)

In 1568 it was still being settled. (same source, p.103).

Still, I think the Norinel connection is important, and thus the feud has to develop post 1546. If you're correct, then a little before.

I think we can agree that Esrolian politics is involved in some capacity. After all, the Kitori had allowed the settlement of the Quivin Mountains.

Rereading my Pavis reference material indeed suggests that Varthanis was already a Yelmalion convert of Monrogh's in 1550. Of course... things could have moved quickly. Presumably Imarjina was already angling for the throne even before she achieved it in 1550. Possibly the war with the Kitori made the Norinel vulnerable before the vacancy itself...

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Yes. I posit 1539 as the date when Tarkalor and Monrogh depart to Teshnos from the Zola Fel valley, after having had a first run through the Pavis Rubble, and possibly visiting Sun County, and somewhere there encountering a depiction of an elephant. They would have returned by 1541, with Monrogh's vision of the many suns in their baggage, and the recruitment of the disgruntled Elmali to Monrogh's new form of Yelmalio will start. 1545 is a good date for the assault on Vanntar, but so is 1547. I think that Monrogh must have settled down in the initial winnings before sending off a quarter of his force to join Dorasar.

 

I have no idea how long the establishment of New Pavis took. Few walls build themselves overnight, and even with the support of the Flintnail cult, getting the walls up and building the temple to Pavis leaning on the wall will have taken some time. Recruiting more settlers may have stretched out even more.

The guide gives an unambiguous 1550 for the founding of New Pavis, but the founding may have been a ceremony with a plow. My (at the time really modest) home city of Kiel was built over the course of 10 years, from 1233 to 1242, before it received the Lübeck city laws and is sponsor (the count of Schauenburg) moved in.

Given the rather precarious location of New Pavis, having a covering force of Sun Domers would have been a must until the walls were finished. Varthanis becomes count of Sun County only in 1567. There is likely to have been interaction with the native Sun Domers before, probably hiring what level of a mercenary force they could muster, and training them with the men brought from Monrogh's forces.

 

It is possible that Tarkalor's involvement in the Kitori defeat helped trigger Sarotar's death. I only made the connection between the Night Jumpers and the assassinations when I saw those troll bodyguards with their Kimantoring/Kitori masks in Prince of Sartar and thought "now that's a homing beacon for Night Jumpers" and a means for the assassins (in high likelihood not hired ones, but members of the House of Sartar) to show up behind all those layers of defense that Nochet offers.

 

Since it is sort of apropos to this thread, I might as well outline the life history of two (deceased) NPCs for my scenario Norinevra's Homecoming. Quite a bit of this may be speculation and contradicted.

Norinevra's Story:

Norinevra was born in 1527 as the daughter of a lesser lineage of House Norinel. (Her grandmother was a younger sister of Queen Bruvala.) Of sufficient standing for a role in house politics, she was introduced into a role as a handmaiden of Arkilia at the age of eight years in order to learn the ceremonies and daily routines of the royal house of Nochet. At age eleven Norinevra became a woman and was initiated into the mysteries of Ernalda.

I like to think that Arkilia is a granddaughter of Bruvala, a cousin of Norina. (Checking the birthdates in Jeff's family tree eliminates the possibility of Arkilia being a daughter of Brengala, unless she was a twin sister of Norina who was born in 1525).

As a handmaiden of Arkilia, Norinevra stood by her side in numerous rites, and she undertook several more pilgrimages to Ezel in Arkilia's entourage, receiving additional magical teachings.

When she was 13 in 1540, Sarotar of the House of Sartar underwent a year marriage with Arkilia of House Norinel, spending the year in Nochet (? pending comment from Jeff). A year later Arkilia's first daughter is born and named Marlesta.

Sarotar meant to continue with another year marriage, taking Arkilia home to Boldhome (mirroring Sartar's contest with the FHQ), but Bruvala, the previous Queen of Nochet who had retired from queenhood in favor of her daughters in order to become the Reverend Grandmother of House Norinel, had other marriage plans for Arkilia – my current idea is to have her choose a suitor from sons of House Deleaos.

(There is no way that Bruvala will give up a daughter of House Norinel to the upstart House of Sartar, regardless whether Sartar became King of Dragon Pass and his son from the Sacred Marriage taking another high-ranking earth priestess for his wife, and regardless of the heroquesting prowess of House Sartar, including Sarotar himself. I thought that one of Sartar's rivals for the hand of the FHQ was from Esrolia, but I seem to have misremembered that – the Kethaelan candidate is now said to have been a Hendriki.)

Sarotar manages to anger Bruvala to the extent that he isn't welcome to visit his daughter any more. He still spends a lot of his time in Nochet (although he has to fulfill magical duties in Sartar and surrounding lands, maintaining the ancestor cult to the Flame of Sartar), and when he does, he confronts other suitors for Arkilia's hand. In short, he displays everything the Esrolian grandmothers loathe about Vingkotling kingship.

I think that Sarotar escalates his efforts, resorting to heroquesting in order to regain Arkilia (who probably is flattered by his obstinate efforts, and might even encourage his attentions despite Bruvala's veto, enabling some contact between Sarotar and his daughter).

During this time, it is likely that Norinevra acted as go-between between Arkilia and Sarotar, pursuing her personal dalliance with a certain Aski Durharlsson, a chieftain's son from a certain Sartarite clan among Sarotar's companions (and the weaponmaster in charge of training Dorasar). First collection of black marks with the Reverend Grandmother.

In 1546 Sarotar attempts to abduct his daughter from the confines of House Norinel, and is killed in the effort. This is the year after Reverend Grandmother Bruvala died and was succeeded by her youngest daughter Brengala, mother of Queen Norinel.

Possibly the same year Marlesta visits a performance of the Puppeteer Troupe and joins them, escaping the supervision of Norinevra. Brengala foams and exiles Norinevra, who finds refuge with Aski.

 

Aski Durharlsson has transferred his allegiance from Sarotar to Dorasar, and aids him in setting up the New Pavis settlement. Norinevra joins them at the building site of New Pavis, and they find time to raid the rubble and acquire a number of artifacts, some of which are pertinent to my scenario and tie in with the Kimantorings and Nochet. When news of the death of Aski's father reaches New Pavis, Aski quits his service honorably and returns to his birth clan, with his wife Norinevra and a bundle of magical artifacts in tow. Within a few years, Aski becomes chief of the clan. He dies gloriously in the service of the Prince of Sartar, and Norinevra chooses to join Asrelia even though she still could have remarried. She remains with the eight surviving children of hers, marrying off her daughters to numerous prestigious thanes all over Sartar, and taking a hand in the prestigous marriages of her granddaughters and great-granddaughters too.

 

Which reminds me: The grandparents in question who inspired the character need not have been part of their birth clan.

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Love the information on the Kitori.

In the interest of narrowing down the date though, the Coming Storm dates Tarkalor’s campaign later, based upon the history of the Red Cow chieftains.

Coming Storm, pg. 49:

Quote

1563-1573 DAYLANOR THE SHIELDLESS


Daylanor, born 1509, married Leika Herd-Rich who bore him three sons and two daughters: Krogar Shield-Breaker, Hindal Moor-Leaper, Orkarl Belly- Laugh who became chieftain, Estava the One-Eyed- Woman, and Unstana Peace Weaver.


For many years, Daylanor led his people against the Sun worshippers. He helped Jarosar Hothead build his road from Jonstown to Dangerous Isle, but earned the clan the undying enmity of the Dolutha. He fought against the Emerald Sword clan of the Dinacoli many times. When Yelmalio came, Daylanor was among those opposed to the missionaries of the new god.


When the Red Cow joined King Tarkalor against the Kitori, Tarkalor reconciled Daylanor with the Sun- worshippers, but there was still no love between them.

Jarosar rules from 1565-1569. This seems to place the arrival of the Yelmalio cult in the Red Cow’s neighborhood after building the road, so definitely later than 1565, but likely before 1569 (not to suggest Monrogh’s vision was this late, just that the organized cult hadn’t reached the Red Cow). It also places the campaign against the Kitori after 1569 since it says Daylanor and the Red Cow joined King Tarkalor (does it really mean King and not Prince? I don’t think so, since Tarkalor is not King of Dragon Pass until 1575, after Daylanor is no longer chief of the Red Cow).

If these dates are correct, the actual campaign against the Kitori would have to fall sometime between 1569 and 1573. Which seems to conflict quite a bit.

Maybe King Tarkalor doesn’t mean he was ruling Sartar at the time, just acknowledging that the history is talking about the future King and not another Tarkalor. Still, if Daylanor was chief and lead the Red Cow on the campaign, it would need to fall after 1563. The text really seems to apply that it was entirely after Jarosar‘s rule though, which ended in 1569.

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39 minutes ago, daskindt said:

Love the information on the Kitori.

In the interest of narrowing down the date though, the Coming Storm dates Tarkalor’s campaign later, based upon the history of the Red Cow chieftains.

Coming Storm, pg. 49:

Jarosar rules from 1565-1569. This seems to place the arrival of the Yelmalio cult in the Red Cow’s neighborhood after building the road, so definitely later than 1565, but likely before 1569 (not to suggest Monrogh’s vision was this late, just that the organized cult hadn’t reached the Red Cow). It also places the campaign against the Kitori after 1569 since it says Daylanor and the Red Cow joined King Tarkalor (does it really mean King and not Prince? I don’t think so, since Tarkalor is not King of Dragon Pass until 1575, after Daylanor is no longer chief of the Red Cow).

Their loss of Whitewall probably was not the end to the Kitori threat, and the Volsaxi were far from the power and unity they had as a separate kingdom two centuries earlier. The Kitori had lost much, and would re-emerge from their woods every now and then. Tarkalor's roadbuilding would have been an excellent target to exact some revenge, so you can have quite a bit of hostile action during Tarkalor's reign, too. 

King and Prince are used rather interchangeably, somewhat annoyingly.

 

39 minutes ago, daskindt said:

If these dates are correct, the actual campaign against the Kitori would have to fall sometime between 1569 and 1573. Which seems to conflict quite a bit.

There are sun worshippers north of the Creek, too. Some of them would be Dinacoli.

 

 

39 minutes ago, daskindt said:

Maybe King Tarkalor doesn’t mean he was ruling Sartar at the time, just acknowledging that the history is talking about the future King and not another Tarkalor. Still, if Daylanor was chief and lead the Red Cow on the campaign, it would need to fall after 1563. The text really seems to apply that it was entirely after Jarosar‘s rule though, which ended in 1569.

As Prince of Sartar, Tarkalor built the road to Whitewall, past the Troll Woods.  The Kitori could also try to start slave revolts in Sun Dome County.

King of Sartar talks about a feud between Tarkalor and the Kitori, not a single war. His nom-de-guerre Trollkiller also indicates that this was no singular action.

 

And The Coming Storm focusses on northern Quiviniland. My greatest respect to Ian, but the events south of the Crossline are not what the book is about.

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I'm getting the general idea that the wars with the Kitori might have the following segments:

c.1530-1550: raids and attacks between the Volsaxi confederates and the Kitori. Tarkalor may have present already and even joined the Night Jumpers.

1546: Sarotar is killed after interrupting the ritual courtship of his lover Arkillia in Nochet.

c.1543-7: Monrogh lays claim to the ruins of Vanntar and calls for a Yelmalion 'homeland' in Sartar. He becomes involved in the disjointed Kitori troubles.

c.1550: Imarjina 'reveals' to Sartari that the death of Sarotar was orchestrated by the Norinel. Tarkalor takes this news and proclaims blood-feud against both the Norinel and the Kitori - their 'kin'. 

1550-1560: Second phase of the war. Organized fighting.

1560: Tarkalor and the Volsaxi confederates take Whitewall, which was abandoned by the Kitori (note that there has been only one successful siege of Whitewall, that in 1621-2). Many Sartari present head to Pavis.

1565-9: Third Phase: Trouble in Sartar takes Tarkalor out of Hendrikiland (where he had possibly sought a princedom of his own). The Hendriki tribes mop up and push the Kitori into the furthest reaches of the Troll Woods. In c.1568-9, Tarkalor may have returned with the Red Cow and others and attacked the Kitori villages.

1579: Tarkalor retroactively cedes the Amber Fields and other Kitori lands to Vanntar. War officially ends and Kitori (the westernmost ones) declared Ergershi, or 'slaves'.

Edited by jeffjerwin
1569 > 1579
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More indications that the final defeat of the Kitori is later:

Colymar History in GM Screen Adventure Book, pg. 10:

Quote

During the rule of the House of Sartar, the Colymar tribe was numerous and powerful enough to keep much of its autonomy. After years of feuding between the Colymar and Malani tribes, in 1572 Prince Tarkalor built a fortress to watch against the Lunar Empire, and to force peace between the Colymar and Malani tribes. The Colymar protested, and their king fought against Tarkalor but was defeated. His successor was a loyal friend of Tarkalor and aided him to defeat the Kitori and found Sun County. Many Colymar warriors fell alongside High King Tarkalor at the Battle of Grizzly Peak in 1582, where the Red Emperor broke Sartar’s dominance in Dragon Pass.

Pg. 11:

Quote

Penterest was the nineteenth. He was of the Antorling clan. He fought the High King and was defeated (1573–
1577). He was the son of Orldag the Storm Voice.


Kenstrel was the twentieth. He was of the Orlmarth clan. He was a loyal friend of his High King and was killed defending his liege and queen at the Battle of Grizzly Peak (1577–1582). He was the son of Hend, the son of Rangor, the son of Tostakos, the son of Rastoron, who was king,

‘77-‘82 seems to push the date back too far (later than even the dates for when the Red Cow chief aided Tarkalor), but the paragraph above seems to indicate that Kenstral aided Tarkalor against the Kitori after he became king of the Colymar as they were actively fighting against Tarkalor prior to that.

This would coincide with the official designation of Vaantar as belonging to the Yelmalio cult in 1579, but significant action in the campaign definitely seems to occur much later than 1550 when he feud began.

Maybe Jeff can clarify the dates a bit and specify some of the phases of the campaign against the Kitori.

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8 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

I'm getting the general idea that the wars with the Kitori might have the following segments:

c.1530-1550: raids and attacks between the Volsaxi confederates and the Kitori. Tarkalor may have present already and even joined the Night Jumpers.

1546: Sarotar is killed after interrupting the ritual courtship of his lover Arkillia in Nochet.

c.1543-7: Monrogh lays claim to the ruins of Vanntar and calls for a Yelmalion 'homeland' in Sartar. He becomes involved in the disjointed Kitori troubles.

c.1550: Imarjina 'reveals' to Sartari that the death of Sarotar was orchestrated by the Norinel. Tarkalor takes this news and proclaims blood-feud against both the Norinel and the Kitori - their 'kin'. 

1550-1560: Second phase of the war. Organized fighting.

1560: Tarkalor and the Volsaxi confederates take Whitewall, which was abandoned by the Kitori (note that there has been only one successful siege of Whitewall, that in 1621-2). Many Sartari present head to Pavis.

1565-9: Third Phase: Trouble in Sartar takes Tarkalor out of Hendrikiland (where he had possibly sought a princedom of his own). The Hendriki tribes mop up and push the Kitori into the furthest reaches of the Troll Woods. In c.1568-9, Tarkalor may have returned with the Red Cow and others and attacked the Kitori villages.

1569: Tarkalor retroactively cedes the Amber Fields and other Kitori lands to Vanntar. War officially ends and Kitori (the westernmost ones) declared Ergershi, or 'slaves'.

1560 is listed in the GtG as the date that Tarkalor defeated the Kitori, but that doesn’t agree with some other accounts. It does match the end of Kitori taxation according to S:KoH.

1565-1569 is Jarosar’s rule. It is stated in KoS that the strife with the “Elmali” was still in full force as they refused to come to Jarosar’s aid. This would seem to indicate Tarkalor’s alliance/reconciliation with the Yelmalions must come later.

1569 is when Tarkalor becomes Prince of Sartar. Several accounts seem to indicate the war-campaign against the Kitori that culminated in the Yelmalions being granted Sun Dome County took place while Tarkalor was Prince of Sartar. He’s been feuding with the Kitori and Monrogh has had his Yelmalio revelation earlier, but Tarkalor does not turn his father’s enemy into his ally against the Kitori until his reign.

1579 is the year listed in several sources that Tarkalor officially awards Vaantar to the Yelmalio cult.

Of course, these dates can all be called into question in other places. There’s a genealogical chart of the Sartar bloodline that alters the dates of rule for almost all the Princes of Sartar.

S:KoH, pg. 222:

(1520-1552) Saronil

(1552-1557) Jarolar

(1557-1561) Jarosar

(1561-1582) Tarkalor

Those dates for the rulers of Sartar would help with the timeframe for Tarkalor’s many deeds as Prince and King, but it’s contradicted in numerous other places, including the very next page in S:KoH, pg 223:

Quote

Sartar. Crowned 1492, apotheosized 1520.

• Saronil, son of Sartar. Crowned 1520,
died 1550 rescuing his granddaughter.

• Jarolar, son of Saronil. Crowned 1550,
died 1565 fighting Tarsh King Phargentes.

• Jarosar, son of Jarolar. Crowned 1565,
died 1569, killed by Lunar sorcery.

• Tarkalor, son of Saronil. Crowned
1569, died 1582 in battle.

 

 

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I just was doing the math.  If the PC is 21 in 1613, then the campaign starts 12 years earlier.  That means the first event that can affect the grandparents after giving birth to the parents is in 1570.

None of the stuff that happened before that matters, unless you're rolling up Great Grandparents.

The date is also perfect for the Borderlands campaign.  Can you guys do the Praxian events and events that would affect Lunars who came with Duke Raus?

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43 minutes ago, Pentallion said:

I just was doing the math.  If the PC is 21 in 1613, then the campaign starts 12 years earlier.  That means the first event that can affect the grandparents after giving birth to the parents is in 1570.

None of the stuff that happened before that matters, unless you're rolling up Great Grandparents.

The date is also perfect for the Borderlands campaign.  Can you guys do the Praxian events and events that would affect Lunars who came with Duke Raus?

Well, drifting back a bit from that allows you to play a more mature character in the 1610s, as well.

And, for the second part, I suppose we could!

I'm trying to post a new entry every other day or so but I am only one man. If anyone wants to throw in a few entries, it would be marvelous.

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1 hour ago, Pentallion said:

I just was doing the math.  If the PC is 21 in 1613, then the campaign starts 12 years earlier.  That means the first event that can affect the grandparents after giving birth to the parents is in 1570.

What age of giving birth to the parents did your math assume?

A woman stays in the cult of Ernalda until she stops giving birth for good. When creating the family at Redhorse Stead in my ongoing experiment to find out how the Elmal split would have affected families and clans, I encountered the problem that there are way too many children. It isn't unusual to grow up with your uncles and aunts in the same age group if your father is a first- or second-born child.

Female initiation can start at 12 years old, in extreme cases considerably earlier. Male initiation can be delayed until age 17 or even later, and may start at age 14. Special boys, rattle born children etc. may face adulthood at 12 or earlier.

Marriage age starts around 17, three to five years into adulthood. First children will appear a year or two afterwards. Last children may pop up more than 20 years into a long-lasting marriage, or in someone's fourties. Powerful men and very fertile women are likely to get children in their fifties.

It can be more extreme with heroic characters. Esroilian Queen Bruvala gave birth to her last daughter Brengala in her late sixties. King Hofstaring fathered a daughter on Entarios the Supporter of the Greenhaven Earth Temple around age 100.

There may be an age difference between the parents, somewhere inside five years is considered normal, and even fifteen years won't raise much of an eyebrow - in either direction.

About half the marriages may last long enough to see the children reach adulthood. Having children from several partners, primary and secondary, isn't unusual.

The age difference between the grandparents of a single person can be an entire generation. I had one grandfather who served in WW1 and one grandmother born after that war - they were/would have been 64 and 46 when I was born.

 

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29 minutes ago, Joerg said:

 

The age difference between the grandparents of a single person can be an entire generation. I had one grandfather who served in WW1 and one grandmother born after that war - they were/would have been 64 and 46 when I was born.

 

One of my more distant ancestors had sixteen children and married four times. He was rather old when his youngest was born, but his (third) wife was not.

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While it is great that the parents and grandparents get involved in the big events of the past, there should be a list of local events that give equally great fame on a local level.

Players should feel free to add local claims to fame for event-less years.

 

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2 hours ago, Joerg said:

What age of giving birth to the parents did your math assume

 

I didnt "assume" anything.RQG starts family history at 1582.  Go back 12 years from 1625 to 1613 then the starting history becomes 1570.

Dealing with anything more complex than that is too minutia for 99.99% of all players.  

Edited by Pentallion

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17 hours ago, Joerg said:

While it is great that the parents and grandparents get involved in the big events of the past, there should be a list of local events that give equally great fame on a local level.

Players should feel free to add local claims to fame for event-less years.

Agree.  This works quite well with Cinsina (and to a lesser extent Maboder, Culbrea, and Dinacoli) and Colymar where we have considerable details.  If you have TotRM #18, you can add in some for the Lismelder as well.  Dundealos, of course, have a major bad event in 1618.

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