Vamargic Eye-necklace and cave trolls

[Egg-Magnus]

During the Inhuman occupation of Dragon Pass 1120->, it is told that the leader of the Wood trolls Vamargic Eye-necklace was a Zorak Zoran worshipping intelligent great troll (Sourcebook p. 62). It is also told that Varmargic is a descendant of two cave trolls. Is there an elderly secret / godlike myth I've missed behind this "improbability" ie. cave troll giving birth to a great troll? The cave trolls are tainted with chaos but obviously the descendant didn't inherit that feature due to his close relationship to Zorak Zoran? Very confusing...

Grateful for ideas and other theosophical explanations,

Egg-Magnus

[Joerg]

Probably born on the Other Side, and possibly his father was a Kitori and Zorak Zorani who could take on Dehori shape, and/or got himself possessed by a suitable spirit.

Vamargic quite likely was born when the EWF still bled off weird draconic magics, but possibly only after the fall of the Clanking City.

[Brootse]

"Vamargic Eye-necklace was the leader of the nation from the south. He was a throwback, born a Great Troll but intelligent, though his parents were both cave trolls. He worshipped Zorak Zoran. His nation was called the Wood Trolls, and among them were many Dark Elves. "

 

How can Vamargic be a throwback? The Cave trolls were mutated from the Mistress race by Chaos, and the Great trolls are created with Cragspider's ritual from Dark trolls. I think that the writer just forgot about that.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Brootse

[Joerg]

Vamargic didn't really make friends, although he attracted followers while he was around. Reports on his activities will show grudging respect at best.

In case of the uz, a throwback or atavistic troll is something positive, not negative - a troll closer to the mistress race.

The cave trolls were mutated mainly from Dark Trolls, although Mistress Race trolls may have been affected, too. It isn't clear whether they are subject to the curse of kin when mating with one another, but mating with dark trolls can trigger the curse.

[Brootse]

36 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Vamargic didn't really make friends, although he attracted followers while he was around. Reports on his activities will show grudging respect at best.

In case of the uz, a throwback or atavistic troll is something positive, not negative - a troll closer to the mistress race.

The cave trolls were mutated mainly from Dark Trolls, although Mistress Race trolls may have been affected, too. It isn't clear whether they are subject to the curse of kin when mating with one another, but mating with dark trolls can trigger the curse.

According to the evolutionary tree in Trollpak the Cave Trolls weren't mutated from the Dark Trolls, but from the Mistress Race. And the Great Trolls can only have Dark Trolls or trollkin descendants, so a Cave Troll can't have Great Troll forefathers, and therefore Cave Trolls can't have atavistic Great Troll descendants. The Cave Trolls aren't the subject of the curse of the kin. Vamargic Eye-necklace might have been a large and smart atavistic troll with Cave Troll parents, but he couldn't have been a Great Troll.

 

e: And if Vamargic was a Great Troll made with the Cragspider's ritual, then he could only have had one Cave Troll parent, not two.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Brootse

[Egg-Magnus]

1 minute ago, Brootse said:

According to the evolutionary tree in Trollpak the Cave Trolls weren't mutated from the Dark Trolls, but from the Mistress Race. And the Great Trolls can only have Dark Trolls or trollkin descendants, so a Cave Troll can't have Great Troll forefathers, and therefore Cave Trolls can't have atavistic Great Troll descendants. The Cave Trolls aren't the subject of the curse of the kin. Vamargic Eye-necklace might have been a large and smart atavistic troll with Cave Troll parents, but he couldn't have been a Great Troll.

My thoughts exactly. Is there Joerg a new interpretation on uz evolution out there?

 

[Charles]

 

17 minutes ago, Brootse said:

According to the evolutionary tree in Trollpak the Cave Trolls weren't mutated from the Dark Trolls, but from the Mistress Race. And the Great Trolls can only have Dark Trolls or trollkin descendants, so a Cave Troll can't have Great Troll forefathers, and therefore Cave Trolls can't have atavistic Great Troll descendants. The Cave Trolls aren't the subject of the curse of the kin.

Generally the sourcebook and the guide override earlier sources. Of course, it’s not impossible there’s a mistake...

[Brootse]

14 minutes ago, Charles said:

 

Generally the sourcebook and the guide override earlier sources. Of course, it’s not impossible there’s a mistake...

The Guide doesn't mention them much, and the Sourcebook says that:

"The death of the Sun and the appearance of the trolls and
other forces of Darkness is called the Lesser Dark of the
Great Night. The race which crawled to this world from
below suffered the agonies of the alien environment of
the world and its gods at war, in addition to the torment
caused by the Sun and the loss of their homes. Most of the
creatures which survived this at all were changed horribly,
and are the ancestors of those creatures which humans
know as Cave Trolls.
In the Surface World Kyger Litor fashioned her race
anew, to better fit the new place, and to provide armies
for her fight against Chaos. This was the origin of the first
of the numerous Dark Trolls, who quickly populated the
world where they could."

So looks like that the info on Trollpak hasn't changed. A mistake by the writer on Vamargic's parents is the most likely explanation.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Brootse

[Lord High Munchkin]

Maybe Vamargic was simply a "great" troll? Or, that his parents were unusually barbaric and crude (even by the typical standards Uz are described as being by human scribes).

 

More seriously I would likely chalk this up to writer error.

[boztakang]

Trolls aren't nearly as hung up on biological classification as we modern humans are. Troll "species" is as much a matter of social status as it is biological detail. Trolls often "change" subspecies based on their social status and circumstances. Modern twin uzko are considered trollkin, despite being otherwise entirely normal uzko. Very, very rarely, a suitably heroic Uzko can claim to be Uzuz. Even the occasional human can demonstrate their Uz soul via the ritual of transformation and become fully Uzko as far as his community is concerned.

There are several reasonable possibilities that match Vamargic's history:

• he was an especially clever Cave Troll, who claimed to be a Great Troll so he could participate in the larger Uz community as something other than a pet
• he was an especially clever Great Troll, who claimed his parents were Cave Trolls to impress allies and frighten enemies
• he was a one-off result of some sort of magical experiment/heroquest
• he was a "genetic sport" born of whichever combination of Uzko, Uzdo, Romol and Spirit seems best for your Glorantha

Personally, I find the first option most plausible, but feel that contradictory in-world sources are both realistic and desirable. After all, I'm not going to argue with a giant troll warlord who wears the eyeballs of his enemies as jewelry about the details of his parentage - and once he's eaten everyone who did, it's not a huge surprise that historical records might be vague or conflicting.

[Joerg]

8 hours ago, Brootse said:

According to the evolutionary tree in Trollpak the Cave Trolls weren't mutated from the Dark Trolls, but from the Mistress Race.

That evolutionary tree (RQ2 Uz Lore pp.50f) contradicts the origin of the Cave Trolls e.g. in the Age markers on the left. The Green and Golden Ages did not know any cave trolls. The Gods War (at least the bit in which the trolls participated) starts either in the middle or at the end of the Golden Age. Pocharngo enters the world in the Greater Darkness.

But, leaving these horizontal lines aside, there is no clear distinction between Dark and Mistress Race trolls.

As far as I interprete the text of Uz Lore, the Hot Trolls branched off from the Dark Trolls of the Surface World, along with their Mistress Race leaders, when they lost their cold powers. I would place their branch to the right of that tree.

The interbreeding with humans is attributed to a Storm Age event. Funny that none of the Aramites showed any troll features at the Dawn.

There may have been Kitori in the image of Ezkankekko, the Only Old One, but those did not develop any mixed breeds, but rather acquired the ability to switch between human, (dark) troll and dehori shapes.

The many faults in this graphic show that it is more of a speculative document, disregarding many of the facts presented elsewhere.

 

Pocharngo entered the world long after the exodus from Wonderhome, and IIRC it was his corrupting influence that caused the Cave Trolls.

RQ2 Uz Lore p.8:

Quote

Magics helped protect the trolls from this horror. The ultimate test of the troll resistance came when Boztakang faced Pocharngo the Mutator, a powerful chaos god who had already turned one troll army into mutants we now call cave trolls.

This is in the Surface World, after the exodus. An army of Mistress Race trolls would have been quite exceptional at this stage, and would surely have been mentioned as such.

 

Looking at older sources, the description of cave trolls says: (e.g. Elder Races Book p.53 in RQ3 Elder Secrets)

Quote

CaveTrolls (Romal - Nose Lopers): a monstrous, bestial species descended from trolls mutated in the Gods' War. Though tainted by chaos, they are admitted to the kinship of other trolls who do not persecute the species, but can even be found herding them like dogs. They are not considered to be true uz and live like wild animals in the wildernesses of Genertela and Jrustela. In Pamaltela, they inhabit the mountain ranges and the Hornilio swamps.

What started the Gods' War? The most common agreed upon date is Yelm experiencing Death, which starts the Burning of Wonderhome and mutilates Mistress Race trolls into Burnt Trolls.

We know about a few Chaos encounters of the trolls that predate the exodus, e.g. Vaneekara hurling her Chaos opponent out of the universe. We don't hear about any Chaos incident until long after the surface troll lands have been settled, mainly by Dark Trolls.

 

Quote

And the Great Trolls can only have Dark Trolls or trollkin descendants, so a Cave Troll can't have Great Troll forefathers, and therefore Cave Trolls can't have atavistic Great Troll descendants. The Cave Trolls aren't the subject of the curse of the kin. Vamargic Eye-necklace might have been a large and smart atavistic troll with Cave Troll parents, but he couldn't have been a Great Troll.

Checking RQ2 Uz Lore p.20

Quote

Cragspider's method was to use powerful magic to invoke Dehori spirits, and later expanded to include hero gods and some deities, to possess the bodies of troll mothers or fathers. This was supposed to restore strength to the reproductive act. However, instead of creating a race of normal trolls, there was spawned the great troll mutation which, though useful and soon popular among leaders, could not breed or think well.

There is no mention about the troll type of either mothers or fathers. Theoretically, you could have pairings of trollkin possessed by Dehori to produce great troll offspring, though possibly only through a Xiola Umbar transfer of pregnancy. There is nothing here to exclude Cragspider's method applied to cave trolls.

RQ2 Uz Lore p. (explanation to the troll size chart):

Quote

Great Trolls

The curse has been a major preoccupaiton of the trolls since it was manifest, and many have attempted to break it. In the Second Age, one named Cragspider came close. However, the result was the great troll instead.

Great trolls have the size of the Mistress Race types, but have paid for it in having a much lower intelligence (average INT 9). Their digestive systems are like those of dark trolls.

Most great trolls are male, and about half of them are apparently sterile. The other half almost never father great troll children, usually father dark troll types, and occasionally father trollkin litters.

In other words, mating with a great troll known to be fertile is more likely to result in the birth of dark troll offspring than mating with a dark troll male.

Quote

e: And if Vamargic was a Great Troll made with the Cragspider's ritual, then he could only have had one Cave Troll parent, not two.

Please state the source for this. Cragspider's method demands possession of the biological parents, not replacement. (Otherwise Bina Bang's son Pikat Yaraboom would be a Great Troll rather than a dark troll.)

 

Unlike @boztakang, I think that troll biology troll types are rather fixed, although I agree that troll social standing troll types are much less tied to their physique. 

[scott-martin]

15 minutes ago, boztakang said:

Modern twin uzko are considered trollkin, despite being otherwise entirely normal uzko.

Mighty boz who keeps all the balls in the air, can this help explain why up to 16% of "enlo" are SIZ 12 thugs when so many of the illustrations are of the teeny SIZ 7-8 dollkin? Starve and neglect a twin and you might end up with something like a big human.

[boztakang]

3 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Mighty boz who keeps all the balls in the air, can this help explain why up to 16% of "enlo" are SIZ 12 thugs when so many of the illustrations are of the teeny SIZ 7-8 dollkin? Starve and neglect a twin and you might end up with something like a big human.

In part, though SIZ 12 can look pretty small when crouched and groveling as the enlo are prone to do. It is interesting to think that abuse and neglect could stunt what might have otherwise been a big burly Uzko into a weedy and crippled (but still "superior") trollkin. Troll children are generally very, very well cared for, while trollkin, not so much. 

I'd suspect that most twin uzko that end up in the 'kin pens eventually work their way up to becoming free laborers or other low-tier "uzko" again, though it's a rough path, as the Uz are careful to ensure that "uppity" or over-clever enlo are beaten into submission or killed asap. 

I had one "uzko from the pens" Hero in my Pavis-Trolls HQ game who eventually became an accomplished chaos-fighter and trollball star, but Big'Un was an unusual case in many ways.

 

[scott-martin]

22 minutes ago, boztakang said:

In part, though SIZ 12 can look pretty small when crouched and groveling as the enlo are prone to do. 

Thanks! Looking at the stats from the other side, full uzko status starts at SIZ 9 for the boys so there's overlap in the 9-12 zone . . . for all I know a large and extremely Valuable multiple birth can rise socially and become a small troll. They probably don't get picked much as mates so whether or not they breed true is irrelevant, but in the meantime, when you're an uz you're a troll all the way.

 

Edited October 9, 2018 by scott-martin
clarity!

[soltakss]

On 10/8/2018 at 7:46 AM, Egg-Magnus said:

During the Inhuman occupation of Dragon Pass 1120->, it is told that the leader of the Wood trolls Vamargic Eye-necklace was a Zorak Zoran worshipping intelligent great troll (Sourcebook p. 62). It is also told that Varmargic is a descendant of two cave trolls. Is there an elderly secret / godlike myth I've missed behind this "improbability" ie. cave troll giving birth to a great troll? The cave trolls are tainted with chaos but obviously the descendant didn't inherit that feature due to his close relationship to Zorak Zoran? Very confusing...

Grateful for ideas and other theosophical explanations,

Egg-Magnus

In theory, there is nothing wrong with two Cave Trolls producing a Great Troll. Cragspider produced Great trolls by incarnating powerful Dehori and making the mother powerful in Darkness, to produce a superior troll. So, the Cave Troll mother could incarnate a Dehori and give birth to a Great Troll. Alternately, Cragspider did have a Runespell that allowed a mother to give birth to a Great Troll, maybe it's as simple as that.

 

[soltakss]

On 10/9/2018 at 11:04 AM, Brootse said:

According to the evolutionary tree in Trollpak the Cave Trolls weren't mutated from the Dark Trolls, but from the Mistress Race. And the Great Trolls can only have Dark Trolls or trollkin descendants, so a Cave Troll can't have Great Troll forefathers, and therefore Cave Trolls can't have atavistic Great Troll descendants. The Cave Trolls aren't the subject of the curse of the kin. Vamargic Eye-necklace might have been a large and smart atavistic troll with Cave Troll parents, but he couldn't have been a Great Troll.

 

e: And if Vamargic was a Great Troll made with the Cragspider's ritual, then he could only have had one Cave Troll parent, not two.

That is unlikely, as the Mistress Race Trolls (UzUz) gave birth to Dark Trolls (Uzko) when they emerged from Wonderhome in the Lesser Darkness.  It is possible, of course, that the mutation of Cave Trolls happened to the first generation who emerged from Wonderhome, but if it happened to the second generation then it would have been Dark Trolls.

We also know that Cave Trolls do suffer from the Curse of Kin, as there are many examples of Cave Trolls with Trollkin children written up in official supplements.

Edited October 12, 2018 by soltakss