Mysticism?

[RogerDee]

35 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

I believe that was a quote from the MRQ Glorantha: the Second Age book.

Good memory as the source was being damn elusive really.

The ol' RQ books were a source of great stuff that recent stuff still has not managed to exceed. Perhaps that is my age talking.....

[metcalph]

On 3/25/2019 at 10:15 AM, davecake said:

Then only when you have two masteries in each of these three disciplines (a point at which your non-mystic companions are cheerfully learning the deepest secrets of their god, requiring only one ability at that level to do so), you got to learn any magic at all, at a base 12.

Oh!  Game Balance!  Saying that mysticism sucked because the mystic PCs were far weaker than other PCs is far more informative than saying mysticism sucked because Greg didn't do maths.

 

On 3/25/2019 at 10:15 AM, davecake said:

The Meditation and Mysticism skills already match the Mental and Spiritual disciplines respectively, and add a physical ability as a requirement for advancement within your mystic order. 

There's a meditation skill in RQG already.  What does the Mythras skill do that this cannot?

As for a mysticism skill, the most obvious answer would be the old RQ total number of Nysaloran Riddles known.

On 3/25/2019 at 10:15 AM, davecake said:

Most Talents already correspond to various Counters, especially the various Denial(x) and Immunity (x) abilities, and some others seem like abilities that might be included in a martial art. The combat useful Enhancing Attributes or Augment Skill abilities, or the Aura (x) ability for more mental/spiritual versions, would work for Strikes. 

Here's where I have a problem.  You seem to be describing mystical magic as being Big Cheesy Spell Effects but this could be amply done with conventional magics in RQG.  Enhancing Attributes could be done using a Strength Spell (or similar), Skill Enhancements with an Ironhand or even more the more exotic pathways, there's Runic Inspirations.   So rather than invent a brand new spanking magical system, something which the Guide suggests doesn't exist - I would reserve mysticism for the insights that allow them to do some rune level/hero level magics and describe those fancy magics using the conventional magic we know and love.

For Darja Danad, the mysticism would be Kabalt.  They would know rune magics that allow them to invoke Kabalt in various circumstances and the strength of these spells is dependent on their knowledge of Kabalt (ie equivalent to number of Nysaloran Riddles known).

 

On 3/25/2019 at 10:15 AM, davecake said:

And notably, there is a lot of things we know a mysticism rules system should do (ie the stuff mystic heroes do in Revealed Mythologies) that no current RQ rules system does. 

I'm not familiar with what you are referring to here.  No current RQ rules system describes what ordinary Heroes do either so pointing out that it doesn't describe mystical heroes doesn't seem that noteworthy.

[metcalph]

On 3/25/2019 at 10:22 AM, davecake said:

There will be rules for Illumination. And there will be cults that offer additional magical options to those who are Illuminated (though I assume only Lunar ones likely in the GoG book).

I don't think there are any other magic systems other than the ones enumerated in the Guide.  Illumination is a state of mind/being and wouldn't be used as a direct source of magic (it could be used to manipulate magics that ordinary Gloranthans can not).

On 3/25/2019 at 10:22 AM, davecake said:

That is pretty much all the mysticism rules required for central Genertela. There might be more rules required later (eg for Kralorela or the East Isles) but they will likely show up in that far future time when area specific source books for those areas appear. 

I really don't see the need for additional mysticism rules for the Eastern Isles given their magical effects can be described conventionally.  

 

 

 

[davecake]

On 3/26/2019 at 3:14 PM, metcalph said:

Oh!  Game Balance!  Saying that mysticism sucked because the mystic PCs were far weaker than other PCs is far more informative than saying mysticism sucked because Greg didn't do maths.

It’s not as simple as game balance. The big problem with Strikes isn’t that they are a weak option, but rather that they are supposed to be powerful and instead are a very weak option, because the maths works differently to the designers intended (not to discredit Robin’s basic design, many issues with HW were all more specific issues introduced later in the design process). 

I generally don’t have any big issues with game balance issues when they are intentional - but I doubt that was what was intended here. The rules seem designed for mystics to start weak and become powerful. Instead, they start weak and become somewhat embarrassing. 

[Joerg]

33 minutes ago, davecake said:

It’s not as simple as game balance.

Which was a big disagreement with the subject of concentration and misapplied worship, IIRC, exactly the kind of problem that mysticism as a form of magical power in the world carries, too.

33 minutes ago, davecake said:

The big problem with Strikes isn’t that they are a weak option, but rather that they are supposed to be powerful and instead are a very weak option, because the maths works differently to the designers intended (not to discredit Robin’s basic design, many issues with HW were all more specific issues introduced later in the design process). 

The other problem with them is of course that they are a finishing move with hardly any counter. If the mystic fighter is able to confront his opponent with the Ultimate, the opponent either proves more deeply entrenched in his way than the mystic (i.e. the bolt fails to effect the opponent), or he undergoes a major fundamental change. Which may not exactly be what the mystic intended (e.g. the demise of Nenduren vs Herespur), or which may reform (Oorsu Sara) or disappear (Avanadpur) the opponent.

Martial artists wielding the Bolt proliferate in the Demigod cycle. Their joint activities fight back the antigod minion races of Sortum and similar places.

The Kralori martial artists - including Kui Hui (sp?) the giant warrior - don't appear to use this bolt attack, but the traditional combination of meditation as preparation for conventional but highly codified maneuvers, whether empty-handed or armed.

33 minutes ago, davecake said:

I generally don’t have any big issues with game balance issues when they are intentional - but I doubt that was what was intended here. The rules seem designed for mystics to start weak and become powerful. Instead, they start weak and become somewhat embarrassing. 

Basically, they don't start with any magical benefit at all until they are way past rune level, which is worse than an original AD&D starting Magic User with 1-4 hit points, a weak dagger attack and a useless "Read Magic" spell, unless you drop them right into the rune level state and have all that meditating, weird mystical training etc. in their backstory.

The bolt as presented there in HW is a highly unstable power, and basically requires a hero point to pull off, and possibly another one to cement the effect. What would be the RQG equivalent? Investment of a rune point, possibly permanent? How to bring "normal" purification austerities (of the "meditate under a waterfall" kind) into the character routine, other than something resembling Humakti (or Yelmalian) geases?

[davecake]

On 3/26/2019 at 3:14 PM, metcalph said:

There's a meditation skill in RQG already.  What does the Mythras skill do that this cannot?

Well, quite a bit. Read the Mysticism chapter of the Mythras rules, and all will be revealed, but answering that question otherwise would essentially require summarizing the chapter. But very loosely, Meditation doubles as Intensity for Mysticism.

On 3/26/2019 at 3:14 PM, metcalph said:

As for a mysticism skill, the most obvious answer would be the old RQ total number of Nysaloran Riddles known

 And in the Mythras rules, each magic system had two associated skills, and the Illumination skill is clearly a much better fit for the Mysticism path skill. 

Your knowledge of the Mythras system appears to be more or less hearsay. It would be more productive to read it before entering into discussion about it. 

On 3/26/2019 at 3:14 PM, metcalph said:

You seem to be describing mystical magic as being Big Cheesy Spell Effects but this could be amply done with conventional magics in RQG.

No, I’m describing HW Mysticism rules, and saying it was a more or less workable paradigm, even if the execution was badly done. In that paradigm Mysticism was sometimes Big and at least arguable often pretty Cheesy - Strikes were clearly intended as attacks of such power they ended a battle instantly (which they still often did, just usually by defeat for the wielder). 

It is true that they could be used for Big Cheesy Magic (and arguably, there is a need for some such, as there are certainly plenty of characters described as mystics who wield Big Cheesy Magic), but it could also do passive resistance magic (like an orthodox mystic in HW), and subtler forms like Illumination, and some unique effects that I kind of liked (like the Aura effect). It’s true some of those effects overlapped with effects you can get from other magic systems - but the other three magic systems all have such overlap too. 

I’m not saying the HW Mysticism matches current canon ideas about Mysticism, just that it was a conceptually workable approach to Mysticism whose deepest flaws were in poor system design, not conceptually - and if you preferred that paradigm to the current canon approach, Mythras could implement it workable.  And you could argue that it matches the Revealed Mythology material better than the current approach.

[davecake]

On 3/26/2019 at 3:14 PM, metcalph said:

You seem to be describing mystical magic as being Big Cheesy Spell Effects but this could be amply done with conventional magics in RQG.  Enhancing Attributes could be done using a Strength Spell (or similar), Skill Enhancements with an Ironhand or even more the more exotic pathways, there's Runic Inspirations.   So rather than invent a brand new spanking magical system, something which the Guide suggests doesn't exist - I would reserve mysticism for the insights that allow them to do some rune level/hero level magics and describe those fancy magics using the conventional magic we know and love.

And it does seem rather a non-sequiter to me that, after saying that Mysticism systems that create Big Cheesy Effects and create a brand spanking magic system are bad, your proposed alternative seems to that we have a new system that allows Big effects, just they only kick in at Rune level? I’m somewhat struggling to understand why you dislike the HW paradigm, when your approach seems quite like it

 

On 3/26/2019 at 3:14 PM, metcalph said:

For Darja Danad, the mysticism would be Kabalt.  They would know rune magics that allow them to invoke Kabalt in various circumstances and the strength of these spells is dependent on their knowledge of Kabalt (ie equivalent to number of Nysaloran Riddles known)

And I think any approach that explicitly says any useful Mysticism must have a rules implementation that is just explicitly one of the other forms of magic to be somewhat pointless. If you are going to work with the canon paradigm, it still needs to be distinct.

For example, I like the idea that the martial artists use austerities to gain power (like gifts and geases), and then use their mystic insights to avoid the negative consequences (eg instead of permanent loss on breaking a geas, simply losing access to that power temporarily). That makes it distinct from other magic, but still about Mysticism allowing you to transcend the limits of other magic systems, rather than just a slight variation. 

I do also think that some Mysticism will be best done implemented by directly expanding the abilities of the Illuminated, but only some. 

[davecake]

On 3/26/2019 at 3:29 PM, metcalph said:

don't think there are any other magic systems other than the ones enumerated in the Guide.  Illumination is a state of mind/being and wouldn't be used as a direct source of magic (it could be used to manipulate magics that ordinary Gloranthans can not).

That was more or less what I was saying, though I think you interpret the Guide a little rigidly. Think of the way the Seven Mothers is described in Pavis/HQG - the source of magic is clearly the Moon, but the Illuminated (by mastery of multiple Moon phases, or mastering the contradictory Life and Death powers of the goddess) are able to perform interesting magical feats. Ditto for Arkati combining normally incompatible forms of magic, etc. The Lunar system does seem a bit suspiciously designed to be particularly effective for Illuminates. 

 

 

 

 

[metcalph]

On 3/29/2019 at 2:13 AM, davecake said:

Well, quite a bit. Read the Mysticism chapter of the Mythras rules, and all will be revealed, but answering that question otherwise would essentially require summarizing the chapter. But very loosely, Meditation doubles as Intensity for Mysticism.

I don't have the Mythras rules.  You say it's great.  I'm asking you why it is great.  Your response of in effect telling me to buy the rules isn't helpful.

On 3/29/2019 at 2:13 AM, davecake said:

 And in the Mythras rules, each magic system had two associated skills, and the Illumination skill is clearly a much better fit for the Mysticism path skill. 

What's the Illumination Skill?  Is it part of Mythras?  How does it work?

On 3/29/2019 at 2:13 AM, davecake said:

Your knowledge of the Mythras system appears to be more or less hearsay. It would be more productive to read it before entering into discussion about it. 

The only hearsay I have about Mythras is you telling me how great it is.  When I ask for details.your response re not very informative.   If the sum of your response is to shill for the Design Mechanism to buy a set of rules that I don't have then I have to wonder whether Mythras is so great as you say it is.

 

 

On 3/29/2019 at 2:13 AM, davecake said:

It is true that they could be used for Big Cheesy Magic (and arguably, there is a need for some such, as there are certainly plenty of characters described as mystics who wield Big Cheesy Magic), but it could also do passive resistance magic (like an orthodox mystic in HW), and subtler forms like Illumination, and some unique effects that I kind of liked (like the Aura effect).

Aura effect?

On 3/29/2019 at 2:13 AM, davecake said:

It’s true some of those effects overlapped with effects you can get from other magic systems - but the other three magic systems all have such overlap too. 

I'm not really seeing anything for saying why Mysticism should have its own form of magic.

On 3/29/2019 at 2:13 AM, davecake said:

And you could argue that [the Mythras rules - PHM] matches the Revealed Mythology material better than the current approach.

Okay, I'll bite.  What's the current approach and why do you think it is inferior to the Mythras rules in modelling the mystics of Revealed Mythology.  And please don't tell me to buy the Mythras rules and make smart remarks on me relying on Hearsay.

[metcalph]

On 3/29/2019 at 2:38 AM, davecake said:

And it does seem rather a non-sequiter to me that, after saying that Mysticism systems that create Big Cheesy Effects and create a brand spanking magic system are bad, your proposed alternative seems to that we have a new system that allows Big effects, just they only kick in at Rune level? I’m somewhat struggling to understand why you dislike the HW paradigm, when your approach seems quite like it

Kindly lose the aggro tone.  I've had a shit of a past two weeks and I reallly don't need the additional grief from this forum.

If mysticism is illumination as the current approach seems to be (back to RQ2), then there should be no battle magic version of mysticism.  It's something that's only acquired after considerable experience.  It's not something that you have a junior monk fresh out of the Darja Danad Monastery running around with knowledge of Kabalt.  His starting magic is likely to be spirit magic and perhaps some rune magic.  This is similar to the Malkioni non-sorceror adventurers - they may know a sorcery spell or two but when it comes to combat, they rely on Spirit and Rune Magics.   Likewise Lunar Magic is only obtainable upon Illumination and so would be a rune-level magic.

Why I think mystical effects (in practice, magics that are powered by mystical knowledge) should be a rune level effect is what I've grokked from Greg's and Rod's comments in the wake of the HW mysticism rules.  It was to the effect that Mysticism was should not be about Big Cheesy Spell effects but Cosmological Transformation, something that alters you at a fundamental level.  Kabalt isn't some lightning bolt spell to smite the godless but a timeless force that you can briefly make others aware of.  Manifesting Kabalt within the world and making others aware of it should be a Big Spell (where Runic, Sorcerous etc is immaterial here).

Okay.  But what about the Beginning Mystic but who is studying Kabalt but has not achieved awareness of it?  Wouldn't it suck if the rune-level magic was only available if he had awaerness of Kabalt whereas the starting initiate of Orlanth can cast rune spells.  Yes, it would suck.  The way out of that hole is to look at the spiritual and magical exercises the mystics use to attain awareness of Kabalt and weaponize them.

For example, let's say the monastery in describing Kabalt describes it as being struck by lightning.  Their monks subject themselves to various electrical disturbances so that they may know Kabalt.  We could give the monks various lighting spells (which they used to cast at each other) and make it useful against their enemies.  This magic does not proceed from their mystical insight but they use it as a magical tool to aid thei aquisition of mystical insight.  That I think is a more productive way of looking at mystical cults than attempting to ground everything magic on their mystical experience.

 

 

On 3/29/2019 at 2:38 AM, davecake said:

And I think any approach that explicitly says any useful Mysticism must have a rules implementation that is just explicitly one of the other forms of magic to be somewhat pointless. If you are going to work with the canon paradigm, it still needs to be distinct.

The canon explicitly states that

Quote

Mysticism: Also called draconic magic or illumination,
this method of conceiving magic involves the search for
the Unknowable. Mysticism rejects logic and experience,
and uses austerities to strip away the dull realities which
accrue with daily and cosmic living. The magic provided is
inconsequential and typically of no interest save to those
who study it

Guide  p9

My approach - that so-called mystical magic is really the other three forms of magic powered using mystical insight - is in line with this.  I doubt there is a useful mysticism that provides magic in and of itself.  If you define that any magic provided by a mystical institution as mystical magic then there's plenty of Eastern isles mystics that might agree with you but ruleswise, mysticism shouldn't be providing magic.

 

On 3/29/2019 at 2:38 AM, davecake said:

For example, I like the idea that the martial artists use austerities to gain power (like gifts and geases), and then use their mystic insights to avoid the negative consequences (eg instead of permanent loss on breaking a geas, simply losing access to that power temporarily). That makes it distinct from other magic, but still about Mysticism allowing you to transcend the limits of other magic systems, rather than just a slight variation. 

A gift is hardly an austerity by any definition.  And a broken geas that results only in temporary loss of power is I think a rather cheap geas.  Since the Yelmalions and the Humakti already have geases, I'm not really seeing the distinctiveness.

[Richard S.]

Geez. Y'all get way to worked up about stuff like this.

[metcalph]

On 3/29/2019 at 2:51 AM, davecake said:

That was more or less what I was saying, though I think you interpret the Guide a little rigidly. Think of the way the Seven Mothers is described in Pavis/HQG - the source of magic is clearly the Moon, but the Illuminated (by mastery of multiple Moon phases, or mastering the contradictory Life and Death powers of the goddess) are able to perform interesting magical feats.

Except that the Guide p9 explicitly describes Lunar Magic as the fifth path of magic.

 

[Jeff]

4 hours ago, metcalph said:

Except that the Guide p9 explicitly describes Lunar Magic as the fifth path of magic.

 

As does Gods and Goddesses.

Let me restate this - I do NOT consider mysticism to be a separate magic system comparable to rune magic, sorcery, or spirit magic. There is Lunar magic. There may be some weird cults that use mystical disciplines do some strange things with one system or another - for example Dayzatar's monks have some powerful Rune spells as a result of their austere life, but they are Rune spells. There may even be a few cults that have some bizarre abilities as a result of the same - but that is no different than Yelmalio and Humakt having gifts and geases.

 

[Richard S.]

5 hours ago, Jeff said:

As does Gods and Goddesses.

Let me restate this - I do NOT consider mysticism to be a separate magic system comparable to rune magic, sorcery, or spirit magic. There is Lunar magic. There may be some weird cults that use mystical disciplines do some strange things with one system or another - for example Dayzatar's monks have some powerful Rune spells as a result of their austere life, but they are Rune spells. There may even be a few cults that have some bizarre abilities as a result of the same - but that is no different than Yelmalio and Humakt having gifts and geases.

 

So instead of having mysticism be any different rules-wise than normal magic it's just a case of whether a certain cult or organization is considered mystical? I like that, it gives more freedom.

[davecake]

On 3/30/2019 at 8:25 AM, metcalph said:

I don't have the Mythras rules.  You say it's great.

It has its pros and cons. In general I prefer RQG, but I house rule both. All I was saying that if you wanted to go with the HW paradigm of mysticism as a separate form of magic, Mythras shows that it is possible to do it fairy well. 

 

On 3/30/2019 at 8:25 AM, metcalph said:

 If the sum of your response is to shill for the Design Mechanism to buy a set of rules that I don't have then I have to wonder whether Mythras is so great as you say it is.

I don't care in the least whether you buy the rules. I just think you arguing or criticising them without reading them is pointless. You could read them and keep arguing about them (only marginally less pointless if you are only interested in current Gloranthan canon, which clearly has taken a different path), or not argue about them. My point is only that they demonstrate that a perfectly good set of RQ like rules could have been created on the HW paradigm of mysticism. 

On 3/30/2019 at 8:25 AM, metcalph said:

What's the current approach and why do you think it is inferior to the Mythras rules in modelling the mystics of Revealed Mythology. 

The current approach is that mysticism is, roughly speaking, Illumination and very little else. It doesn't really have an explanation for any use of magic by mystics beyond 'you must be confused and its something else', but its also obvious there is a little bit more going on. At the very least, RQG allows for forms of Rune magic that are only accessible to the Illuminated (the Red Goddess cult being an example, at least according to the GoG preview, though of course info in the preview may have changed). 

But there is an intermediate stage, which is the paradigm of understanding how mysticism works. IF you go with the paradigm of mystic magic use represented in HW material, which is based IMO on a fairly literal reading of much of the RM material, then Mythras rules demonstrate that it is not that hard to construct a system that does that. 

The 'problem' with the mysticism = Illumination paradigm is that currently we have no explanation for any of the magical abilities used by any of the mystics in revealed mythology of any kind, or any obvious means of doing so (as Venfornism etc or orthodox mysticism are not obviously Rune, Spirit or Sorcerous magic, for the most part, yet manifest significant magic abilities). I certainly don't doubt that such an explanation *could* be created, but I don't think it is obvious how it will be convincingly done by simply treating all RM magic as just Rune, Spirit or Sorcery magic. A little rethinking of how the magic systems fit together, and a bit of a deeper dive into 'Illumination', is necessary, and while I think that is possible (and indeed, have suggested mechanisms to do so, such as leaning into the gifts and geases idea to provide the 'austerities' based magic of RM), it hasn't been done yet. This isn't a big problem, unless you want to run a game that should use such magic a lot (eg an East Isles based game) using RQ like rules in the (presumably several years) before RQG gets around to it. 

So - if you think the RM material implies a magic system beyond 'the big three', and you want to write/run stuff compatible with that paradigm, then Mythras can do it. You don't even necessarily need to make a decision as to whether Ven Fornic magic is truely mystic or just 'mysticism compatible' or 'mysticism adjacent'. Though, FWIW, you could also model Illumination using the same system without much of a stretch. 

On the other hand, if you think all the magic use in RM can, or should be, modelled by magic that fits within the Rune/Spirit/Sorcery rules we know, and mysticism 'layered on top' as something Illuminates could achieve, that is certainly possible, but it hasn't been done. The current paradigm appropriately models the use of Mysticism within the Dragon Pass area, but is significantly incomplete for modelling eg the East Isles and other RM material. It is probably fair to say that filling in those gaps is a higher priority for me than for Chaosium. 

[Richard S.]

I personally don't think mysticism can ever be confined to one form of magic. Some of it is the traditional three, but most mystic sects follow their own rules. Lunar and draconic magic, for example, are both forms of mysticism, yet they use radically different rules. Vithelan dream magic and the weird, unique strikes wielded by eastern martial artists are also unique and, though perhaps similar, working under different rules than the big thee. There are many rune cults, spirit cults, and sorcery schools that could certainly be classed as being "mystic", but there are also hundreds of other ways to do magic. Some of them may not even be mysticism, even if they're different from the big three.

[davecake]

On 3/30/2019 at 9:18 AM, metcalph said:

If mysticism is illumination as the current approach seems to be (back to RQ2), then there should be no battle magic version of mysticism.  It's something that's only acquired after considerable experience.  It's not something that you have a junior monk fresh out of the Darja Danad Monastery running around with knowledge of Kabalt.  His starting magic is likely to be spirit magic and perhaps some rune magic. 

Well, I agree to a point, but making Ven Fornic martial arts magic nothing more than a few Ironhand and Strength spells seems just smushing everything potentially unique and interesting about it into nothing, including more or less totally ignoring the 'austerity' idea. Giving your martial monk a few magic powers based on the exercise of austerities seems much more interesting (and rules wise could be done by various mechanisms, but something like gifts and geases seems a fairly obvious one that doesn't require a lot of extra rules or special cases. 

On 3/30/2019 at 9:18 AM, metcalph said:

Why I think mystical effects (in practice, magics that are powered by mystical knowledge) should be a rune level effect is what I've grokked from Greg's and Rod's comments in the wake of the HW mysticism rules.  It was to the effect that Mysticism was should not be about Big Cheesy Spell effects but Cosmological Transformation, something that alters you at a fundamental level. 

Sort of - but I think the current paradigm is a bit more along the lines of: mystic magic is only for the Illuminated, the most important practical effects of Illumination (as opposed to trying to reflect mystical spiritual liberation in game terms) are those that Cosmplogical Transformation of the self can also transform the Illuminates approach to other magic (mostly removing restrictions on its practice), including unlocking access to some magic that may be fundamentally of a different form but is still available only to the Illuminated. There seem to be magical paths that certainly appear as Rune magic (or spirit or sorcery), but that are unlocked to be far more powerful and flexible with Illumination, sometimes such that they seem to be designed that way (notably the Lunars). The difference between mystics who are able to access Big Cheesy spell effects directly through mysticism, and mystics who are able to access big Cheesy spell effects by using mysticism to unlock the potential of other forms of magic is in some ways a very important one (and at the heart of these discussions), but the presence or absence of Big Cheesiness is a little bit beside the point. And also it is not so much about magic that is gained only at Rune level, as about magic that is most effective only when Illuminated. 

Dayzatar is a pretty good example here. Perhaps Dayzatar is an example of example of un-mystic theist magic that is powered by ascetism. Or perhaps it is an example of a very conservative form of mysticism. Either way, Dayzatar has access to limited but powerful magic subject to maintaining an ascetic lifestyle, and an Illuminated Dayzatar mystic is able to access that powerful magic but under much less restriction, making it a more practical path that still has access to some powerful magic - and this sort of thing seems like exactly the sort of thing that mystic followers of Nysalor or Sheng Seleris might do. 

The Lunars are another example. Their magic does not seem to be notably different in its effects when used by the un-Illuminated, and you can treat it as a mostly Rune magic using tradition that also has Spirit and sorcery using traditions within it. But it both leads the user towards Illumination, and becomes significantly more powerful and flexible when used by an Illuminate (including access to some magic that is both Big and Cheesy - the Red Goddess magic (which differs hugely in RQ3 and RQG GoG, but in neither case is subtle)).

I'd like Darja Danad etc to be of this nature - not simply a cult that provides the same magic as anyone else, but rather a cult whose magic is a little different (and perhaps cumbersome), and whose potential radically unlocks when practiced by the Illuminated. 

On 3/30/2019 at 9:18 AM, metcalph said:

My approach - that so-called mystical magic is really the other three forms of magic powered using mystical insight - is in line with this. 

You seem to be suggesting a model where cults like Darja Danad has normal magic, and Illumination, and the two don't really interact. If Darja Danads martial arts magic is just Ironhand 4 or whatever, that isn't really 'powered using mystical insight' in any useful way. 

 If you define that any magic provided by a mystical institution as mystical magic then there's plenty of Eastern isles mystics that might agree with you but ruleswise, mysticism shouldn't be providing magic.

On 3/30/2019 at 9:18 AM, metcalph said:

If you define that any magic provided by a mystical institution as mystical magic then there's plenty of Eastern isles mystics that might agree with you but ruleswise, mysticism shouldn't be providing magic.

1) even if we define mystic making strictly as Illumination, Illumination provides some subtle but useful magic itself, that seems to be entirely of mystic origin. Let's not get wrapped up in absolutes. And let's also note that the list of powers available to an Illuminate is deliberately left open - I think it's the list of powers known to Nysaloran Illumination, but when we eventually deep dive into other forms of mysticism it might end up extended a little. 

2) sure, I'm perfectly happy if Darja Danad etc end up with some magic that seems strictly mystic, but mostly a lot of magic that is described by other systems and just practiced by the institutions. Given the way RQG divine cults all have Spirit Magic, and Spirit Cults have divine magic, you could argue that this sort of loose nomenclature is, in fact, the vast majority of the ways we talk about magical institutions of any kind, so why should we approach mysticism differently? 

On 3/30/2019 at 9:18 AM, metcalph said:

A gift is hardly an austerity by any definition. 

Obviously, but the whole basic of the Austerity War, Sivolic magic, etc is that from various practices of abstinence and austerity magic powers may be gained. So saying the accompanying powers are not austerities in themselves is just ignore the Gloranthan context, which seems unhelpful. 

On 3/30/2019 at 9:18 AM, metcalph said:

And a broken geas that results only in temporary loss of power is I think a rather cheap geas.  Since the Yelmalions and the Humakti already have geases, I'm not really seeing the distinctiveness.

That it is a rather cheap geas is rather the point. Without mysticism, the magic gained is limited (how many austere mystic practices can you maintain at once?) and may be both limiting and impractical. But add Illumination and it becomes a much cheaper and more flexible path. It is different to the Yelmalions and Humakti only in that, not (currently) embracing mysticism neither of those cults embraces the idea that they may become a more practical path to power for the Transformed Mystic (of course, either Yelmalio as Darsenerus, or Humakt under Arkat, might have done so)

[RogerDee]

You are all making a mountain out of a molehill. Make a quick definition of each.

Innate: Integral and part of their bein.

Illumination: The path of boddhisattvas

Sorcery: Requires intense research and shapes magic using various methods.

Divine: It is from the gods.

Mysticism: Internal path.

Now what system you use it matters very little, just that it encompasses the setting in question. So I could easily have a Gloranthan mystic meet one from Mythras. The mechanical effects are easily house ruled.

Edited April 6, 2019 by RogerDee

[Joerg]

12 hours ago, davecake said:

Well, I agree to a point, but making Ven Fornic martial arts magic nothing more than a few Ironhand and Strength spells seems just smushing everything potentially unique and interesting about it into nothing, including more or less totally ignoring the 'austerity' idea. Giving your martial monk a few magic powers based on the exercise of austerities seems much more interesting (and rules wise could be done by various mechanisms, but something like gifts and geases seems a fairly obvious one that doesn't require a lot of extra rules or special cases. 

Dave, I think you are short-selling Venfornic techniques if you limit them to martial arts.

I think that Venfornic practices are ones of integration of e.g. spirits into one's self. So no, it isn't about having the Ironhand spell, it is about gaining the Ironhand ability, and exploring that through meditative techniques like shattering boulders or mountains. And the same for other such abilities.

As far as I have understood this, the goal of Venfornic mysticism is integration of the All and thereby reaching the Ultimate. Sivolic and Kambolic practices appear to be a rather thinned down version of that.

It is possible that this path was only possible "early on" in Creation, and that the sheer amount of Creation since has made achieving the end of it nigh impossible. Or that the destruction of the world in the Gods War has made finishing this path impossible.

12 hours ago, davecake said:

Sort of - but I think the current paradigm is a bit more along the lines of: mystic magic is only for the Illuminated, the most important practical effects of Illumination (as opposed to trying to reflect mystical spiritual liberation in game terms) are those that Cosmplogical Transformation of the self can also transform the Illuminates approach to other magic (mostly removing restrictions on its practice), including unlocking access to some magic that may be fundamentally of a different form but is still available only to the Illuminated. There seem to be magical paths that certainly appear as Rune magic (or spirit or sorcery), but that are unlocked to be far more powerful and flexible with Illumination, sometimes such that they seem to be designed that way (notably the Lunars). The difference between mystics who are able to access Big Cheesy spell effects directly through mysticism, and mystics who are able to access big Cheesy spell effects by using mysticism to unlock the potential of other forms of magic is in some ways a very important one (and at the heart of these discussions), but the presence or absence of Big Cheesiness is a little bit beside the point. And also it is not so much about magic that is gained only at Rune level, as about magic that is most effective only when Illuminated. 

The early approach outlined for the Hero Wars narrative basically suggested a two-pronged approach using a pair of characters. One has a meditating hermit learning to refute basically everything, including any kind of magic in the employ of mortals, spirits, gods and essences, over a long time. The other was your cool sfx martial artist using a piece of equipment at hand (say a meat cleaver and a beaten pot) and making an elaborate combat skill out of that by cementing individual feats with it. Fairly easily done with HQ rules of any generation, but probably subject to a Ki skill like mechanism under RQ, preferably with a lower entry enty skill than 95% (although RQG has made that within range of a starting character).

To be fair, this would result in unmodified success chances for such effects similar to those of non-core sorcery spells under RQ3.

Feat effects ought to be cheesy, but needn't be that big.

For Big Cheesy, I still demand a number of people pooling their power through a leader in a kind of mindlink. Gemmel's Drenai novels feature the Temple of the Thirty, a mystical order that felt quite Gloranthan in their constituting a wyter from melding their discorporate selves into an entity called Temple. Theirs being a suicide pact with one "defector" seeding the next temple isn't quite in keeping with how I see the Sartar Magical Union or the Lunar College of Magic, but otherwise it fits. And it might fit for an Eastern or draconic model of mysticism where oblivion is a welcome goal, possibly called ascendance.

On an individual level, something in between rune points and the RQ6 model of transforming magic points into something like rune points, though through meditation rather than worship, might feel right. The original concept had some concept like "strike" and "counter" for the magical martial arts. Possibly powered by "will" or "intent".

 

"Illumination" or enlightenment appears like something that can be seeded or awakened, but needn't be a permanent magical benefit until re-affirmed by some ritual repetition, be it of self-mutilation (starting with meditation under a waterfall, aka ice bucket challenge) in order to collect power, perfecting a related or unrelated skill (the Land of Ninja Ki rules) such as a kata or calligraphy as a focal skill, or similar.

The Refutation of the meditating hermit was to be constantly tested by temptations. The weird and not quite useful rules on occlusion in one of the Lunar HQ1 books appear to have been a not so well communicated attempt at that.

12 hours ago, davecake said:

The Lunars are another example. Their magic does not seem to be notably different in its effects when used by the un-Illuminated, and you can treat it as a mostly Rune magic using tradition that also has Spirit and sorcery using traditions within it. But it both leads the user towards Illumination, and becomes significantly more powerful and flexible when used by an Illuminate (including access to some magic that is both Big and Cheesy - the Red Goddess magic (which differs hugely in RQ3 and RQG GoG, but in neither case is subtle)).

The RQ3 "Lunar Magic" with its linear expansion of spirit magic was neither big nor cheesy, compared to the similar logarithmic expansion of basic sorcery. It was better than normal spirit magic mostly for its systematic variability, but no more so than a shaman with a fetch and some crystals/matrices full of spirits to do his bidding.

I ported this system to my non-Gloranthan RQ3 setting, tying it to a twilight-worshipping druidic caste, and found it a lot less over the edge than a full fledged adept's sorcery.

12 hours ago, davecake said:

I'd like Darja Danad etc to be of this nature - not simply a cult that provides the same magic as anyone else, but rather a cult whose magic is a little different (and perhaps cumbersome), and whose potential radically unlocks when practiced by the Illuminated. 

In case of Darja Danad, it appears to be a cult which may teach a special strike skill that has no significant difference from a normal attack unless you a) achieve enlightenment and b) become able to share it with your opponent. And with the small but significant risk that your flash-enlightened opponent does "get it" and use it upon you, as happened to Nenduren with his final pupil.

 

12 hours ago, davecake said:

You seem to be suggesting a model where cults like Darja Danad has normal magic, and Illumination, and the two don't really interact. If Darja Danads martial arts magic is just Ironhand 4 or whatever, that isn't really 'powered using mystical insight' in any useful way. 

I don't see the martial artists of the demigod cycle as weaponless masters. Rather the opposite - martial arts should include the use of implements other than your bare hands. Even forms like Aikido have spear elements. Kicking, grappling and boxing are nice, and might offer you some technical armor when parrying, but that's just kicking, grappling and boxing when the day ends. Weapon feats or non-permanent "gifts" as the result of martial arts paired with some magical effect seem to be in order. Possibly up to the "distance strike" melee feat known from wuxia or manga.

 

I do miss the draconic branch of mysticism in this discussion. Granted, the EWF required the Dragon Dream, which may or may not have been tied to the Grand Dragon project, and definitely was tied to the pyramid scheme of the Third Council leaders allowing them to achieve dragon shape and more.

I wonder why nobody talks about the Immanent Mastery method of providing Hsunchen- and dragonewt-like effects for the disciples of this short-cut mystical nostrum, or the full draconic magic available to the disciples of Godunya (aka exarchs).

12 hours ago, davecake said:

Obviously, but the whole basic of the Austerity War, Sivolic magic, etc is that from various practices of abstinence and austerity magic powers may be gained. So saying the accompanying powers are not austerities in themselves is just ignore the Gloranthan context, which seems unhelpful. 

The main power gained from austerities is the power of refutation, at least under the original model presented by Greg for Hero Wars (without any concrete rules attached).

The path of Ingolf appears to be an accumulation of gifts (in his case draconic transformations), and the austerity lay in abstaining from using these gifts in an entangling way.

Refutation basically comes across as treating the permanent mundane reality as transient reality.

 

I don't think that either the Glowline or the Bright Empire's area of effect or the draconic dream are exactly a transient reality. They are an alternate reality that the enlightened user may draw upon for their gifts or magic. Some of that may be linked to facing entropic situations, whether as purification or as trial of fortitude which might be understood as austerities, and undergoing more mundane austerities might be some schools' approach to these later, meaningful (i.e. rewarded) tests.

Enlightenment should be the switch to turn access to these powers on. And that switch needn't be permanently on once you have experienced your first glimpse of enlightenment. There is some potential to treat enlightened activity like "getting into the zone", a state of experience beyond the normal limitations of body and will. Possibly like the RQ3 knowledge skill "Martial Arts" that was queried together with the weaponless combat skill roll (typically significantly lower, not providing experience ticks).

 

[davecake]

On 4/7/2019 at 3:54 AM, Joerg said:

Dave, I think you are short-selling Venfornic techniques if you limit them to martial arts.

I’m not. Quite aside from the wackiness and fun of Kivolic sex magic, the Austerity Wars stuff in RM clearly suggests that there is more to it, including the ‘correct’ practice of other forms of magic. 

On 4/7/2019 at 3:54 AM, Joerg said:

So no, it isn't about having the Ironhand spell, it is about gaining the Ironhand ability, and exploring that through meditative techniques like shattering boulders or mountains. And the same for other such abilities.

But the question, in both game terms and in terms of ‘paradigm’, is whether this is a different form of magic, or just some way of mystically enhancing other magic. We don’t seem to have a good answer currently. Though it is interesting to note that if we considered the RQ3 Red Goddess magic as a form of special magic available only to Illuminates that enhances spirit magic, that would fit the description very closely. 

 

On 4/7/2019 at 3:54 AM, Joerg said:

do miss the draconic branch of mysticism in this discussion. Granted, the EWF required the Dragon Dream, which may or may not have been tied to the Grand Dragon project, and definitely was tied to the pyramid scheme of the Third Council leaders allowing them to achieve dragon shape and more.

I tend to think that it allows humans (who have acquired draconic Illumination) to ignore the normal restrictions on what magic they can use (as Illumination does), and the EWF then is able to teach the Dragon magic normally only available to dragonnewts. Of course, we know very little about Dragon magic. But that is, of course, not the only think you can do with (and much other EWF experimentation used Illumination to explore the Green Age or combine other magical practices and so on - the EWF was a huge empire and magical movement, far more complex than a single cult or set of practices). 

And Darudism is a whole thing again. 

On 4/7/2019 at 3:54 AM, Joerg said:

wonder why nobody talks about the Immanent Mastery method of providing Hsunchen- and dragonewt-like effects for the disciples of this short-cut mystical nostrum, or the full draconic magic available to the disciples of Godunya (aka exarchs).

The Path of Immanent Mastery is probably false Mysticism, trying to run the mystic transformation idea backwards. And I simply don’t think we currently know enough about Darudism. 

 

On 4/7/2019 at 3:54 AM, Joerg said:

main power gained from austerities is the power of refutation, at least under the original model presented by Greg for Hero Wars (without any concrete rules attached)

I think this is slightly confused. Refutation is the orthodox practice, and does not consist of austerities but Venformism is different, and designed for those who found the pure Mysticism of Oorduren too hard (eg mortals unable to spend  meditating). Sivolic practice is about austerities. Do not confuse pure meditation with ascetism etc, though it might appear that way to us. 

In general IRL mysticism, there is the idea that the goal of mysticism is that pure moment of spiritual insight, but that requires silencing all distractions, including those of the body and mind, and much practice is required to control the body and mind enough to be able to quiet them. Magic powers might be gained along the way in the way, but it’s a tool along the journey, not the destination. Austerities are practices that are useful, but not of real value themselves for someone who wants to disengage from the world. 

On 4/7/2019 at 3:54 AM, Joerg said:

Refutation basically comes across as treating the permanent mundane reality as transient reality.

Totally. But venfornism is not refutation, and orthodox mystics who practice Refutation only might not be very fun PCs. 

On 4/7/2019 at 3:54 AM, Joerg said:

don't think that either the Glowline or the Bright Empire's area of effect or the draconic dream are exactly a transient reality. 

The Red Moon strikes me as exactly that. And FWIW, so does the Dragonnewts dream to me. And the Empire of Avanapdur. Quite possibly the Bright Empire did build such an area in Dorastor, only we see only echoes and shadows now. 

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, davecake said:

I’m not. Quite aside from the wackiness and fun of Kivolic sex magic, the Austerity Wars stuff in RM clearly suggests that there is more to it, including the ‘correct’ practice of other forms of magic. 

Sure, all-encompassing.

3 hours ago, davecake said:

But the question, in both game terms and in terms of ‘paradigm’, is whether this is a different form of magic, or just some way of mystically enhancing other magic. We don’t seem to have a good answer currently. Though it is interesting to note that if we considered the RQ3 Red Goddess magic as a form of special magic available only to Illuminates that enhances spirit magic, that would fit the description very closely. 

And that's where I think that we part company, as Lunar magic as understood through the introduction of the concept of glamours etc. is an imitation of normal (Gloranthan) reality magic tied to the reality of the Red Moon, which is different, and which is either emanating from the body in the sky or an extension of its presence around the Crater through the highly disruptive magic that creates the Glowline.

The "spirit magic" enhanced by the RQ3 Lunar magic techniques is probably best understood as Lunar spirits manipulated with Lunar energies.

But then, manipulating magic from an alternate reality appears to be what mysticism offers to both orthodox and "failed" practitioners, and which applies to Darudism as well. Each of the past Three Ages had such alternate realities - the Glowline, the Dragon Dream (with a less fixed boundary), and Gbaji between the perceptions of Arkat and Nysalor.

3 hours ago, davecake said:

I tend to think that it allows humans (who have acquired draconic Illumination) to ignore the normal restrictions on what magic they can use (as Illumination does), and the EWF then is able to teach the Dragon magic normally only available to dragonnewts. Of course, we know very little about Dragon magic. But that is, of course, not the only think you can do with (and much other EWF experimentation used Illumination to explore the Green Age or combine other magical practices and so on - the EWF was a huge empire and magical movement, far more complex than a single cult or set of practices). 

The EWF had a huge amount of stray magic from the "chain of reveration" method (taken from Malkioni sorcery?) that powered the accelerated ("failed") mystic development of leaders like Isgangdrang, Lord Burin and probably Lorenkargartan. The Dara Happan Dragon Emperor may have been a more Darudic example, and Ingolf was one of the more powerful students of the unchanged branch of draconism that produced Obduran (the only worshipper of Orlanth who became a full dragon, but quite likely not the only student of his school of draconism who reached a draconic existence before the 1042 utuma).

 

3 hours ago, davecake said:

And Darudism is a whole thing again. 

The Path of Immanent Mastery is probably false Mysticism, trying to run the mystic transformation idea backwards. And I simply don’t think we currently know enough about Darudism. 

Oh, Immanent Mastery is false or failed Mysticism, and whatever the non-Ingolf draconic leaders of the Third Council did, was Mysticism straying from the path to the Ultimate, too. Much like Sheng.

Darudism appears to be the draconic understanding of the Sun Emperor, including the necessity of cycles that Yelm Murharzarm was blind to.

3 hours ago, davecake said:

I think this is slightly confused. Refutation is the orthodox practice, and does not consist of austerities but Venformism is different, and designed for those who found the pure Mysticism of Oorduren too hard (eg mortals unable to spend  meditating). Sivolic practice is about austerities. Do not confuse pure meditation with ascetism etc, though it might appear that way to us. 

The Kabalt practice uses austerities and is a Mashunasic, non-Venfornic practice which branches off from the pure refutation meditations of their master. Nenduren's Stillness and derived schools practiced a form of refutation, too. And Larn Hasamador, oh, nothing.

I think that access to the Liberating Bolt requires a minimal "grade" in refutation, and that that goes for a great number of the other martial artists involved in the Demigod Cycle.

3 hours ago, davecake said:

In general IRL mysticism, there is the idea that the goal of mysticism is that pure moment of spiritual insight, but that requires silencing all distractions, including those of the body and mind, and much practice is required to control the body and mind enough to be able to quiet them. Magic powers might be gained along the way in the way, but it’s a tool along the journey, not the destination. Austerities are practices that are useful, but not of real value themselves for someone who wants to disengage from the world. 

True. Still, the disciples of the Bolt carry their insight won through refutation and push it onto those who seek to disturb the world into complete distraction.

3 hours ago, davecake said:

Totally. But venfornism is not refutation, and orthodox mystics who practice Refutation only might not be very fun PCs. 

Venfornication might be the most fun way for mysticism, but Venforn and even Sivoli and Kamboli are part of the Gods Cycle, not the Demigods Cycle. Vith and Venforn are the two successful students of Oorduren. Mashunasan still isn't there yet, and might never be. Nenduren's guidance failed when the Face of Atrilith was twisted into the mask of Chaos, although there is a possibility that Nenduren found a way into an emergency ascendance in that process. Annihiliation under your own power in face of great mishap still is a mystic victory.

 

3 hours ago, davecake said:

The Red Moon strikes me as exactly that. And FWIW, so does the Dragonnewts dream to me. And the Empire of Avanapdur. Quite possibly the Bright Empire did build such an area in Dorastor, only we see only echoes and shadows now. 

I don't think that these realities are transient - their intersection with the reality of Time might be, though.