Wine Prices...

[Atgxtg]

Okay this all started because a Player Knight was on a quest and had to deal with a Giant that was guarding the way. The PK had been forward about the giant by a friendly pagan priest, and was also informed that the giant liked to drink. A lot. So the player decided that it might be a smart idea to try and get the giant drunk, and since wine is stronger than beer, they decided to stop off any buy wine. A lot. As in enough to get a giant to pass out, or at least gent him blind drunk. How much was that. A lot. Not knowing just how much wine it took to get a giant to pass out let along how big the giant was the player decided that bottles of wine wouldn't do. The knight needed barrels of wine. Fortunately the GM (raises hand) has anticipated such an action, after all he wrote the adventure, so he (I mean I) did a little prep work on wine barrels and worked out a price, and the player left town with a barrel of wine and a new pack horse to carry it. Things didn't quite go as planned (the giant kept noticing the PKs cup was empty and refilled it, so both got drunk), but it all worked out in the end (the PK defeated the giant, bandaged his wounds, and left the barrel-there were no hard feeling and it was the most civil fight the giant ever had). Later on, thinking that a table for wine barrels might be useful again some day, and not knowing when to quite while I was ahead,  I took a closer look at some of the confusing and contradictory  bits of information he ran across while research wine barrels and, after some SAN rolls and a little math, and some gamer friendly rounding of numbers,  I  ended up with what follows. Hopefully somebody else might get some use out of it, and I can spare them the minefield of medieval weights and measures.

Update: Not knowing enough to quit when ahead, I did a little more research and decided to add in some more containers, mostly of Roman design, in part because the (mostly ceramic container were easier to seal and kept longer. They also didn't change the flavor of the wine the way wooden barrels did. This means that such containers would probably be favored for exotic wines, and also would be more likely to be used in places like Rome or Byzantium over barrels. 

 

Wine (Up to and including the Conquest Period)	Town Price	City Price		Quality	Cost (unless otherwise noted in the description)
Local wine, poor (bottle)	—	½d		Poor	x½
Local wine (bottle)	1d.	1d.		Average	x1
Local wine, good (bottle)	2d.	2d.		Good	x2
Foreign (i.e French) wine, good (bottle)	—	6d.		Better	x3
Burgundian or Spanish wine, good (bottle)	—	8d.		Best	x10
Italian wine, good (bottle)	—	10d.
Greek wine, good (bottle)	—	14d.
Exotic wine, good (bottle)	—	20d.
German or Occitanian Wine, good (bottle)	—	25d.
Wine (Romance Periods and beyond)
Local wine, poor (bottle)	1d.	½d
Local wine (bottle)	2d.	1d.
Local wine, good (bottle)	3d.	2d.
Foreign (i.e French) wine, good (bottle)	10d.	6d.
Burgundian or Spanish wine, good (bottle)	12d.	8d.
Italian wine, good (bottle)	14d.	8d.
Greek wine, good (bottle)	18d.	10d.
Exotic wine, good (bottle)	25d.	12d.
German or Occitanian Wine, good (bottle)
Quantity		Cost
Pint (a Cup)		x½
Bottle or Quart(2 pints)		x1
Pottle or Wineskin (4 pints)		x2
Wine Gallon* or Big Wineskin (2 pottles)		x4
				Weight (SIZ), full	Weight (SIZ) , empty
Barrel (256 pints, 32 wine gallons, 1/8th tun)		x£½		250 lbs (SIZ 22)	50 lbs (SIZ 5)
Hogshead (512 pints, 64 wine gallons, ¼ tun)		x£1		500 lbs (SIZ 29)	100lbs (SIZ 10)
Butt/Pipe (1024 pints, 126 wine gallons, ½ tun)		x£2		1200 lbs (SIZ 36)	200 lbs (SIZ 17)
Tun(2048 pints, 256 wine gallons, 1 tun)		x£4		2400 lbs (SIZ 43)	400 lbs (SIZ 25)
Roman Measure
The Romans (and the Greeks ) preferred to ship wine in ceramic containers called Amphorae, which could keep wine better than
other methods of storage such as barrels or (even worse) bottles. Although the actual value was supposed to be 80 roman pounds, or
about 6.92 modern US Gallons, but historical examples vary considerably from the supposed official values, which gives us enough wiggle room
to equal the Roman pound to the modern one, especially once Arthur becomes Emperor of Rome and standardized the Roman pint to be the
same as the British pint, and Amorphae to be equal to 80 modern pounds and 10 wine gallons (to the benefit of all).
So for import wines, consider the following containers, note that you don’t quite get as much wine per ton as with British Wines,
so often containers are sold rounded down to the nearest value of 5 (a 21 Amphorae container sold as a 20 Amphorae container)
Quantity		Cost		Weight (SIZ), full	Weight (SIZ) , empty
Urn (24 pints, 3 wine gallons)		x12		42 lbs (SIZ 4)	18 lbs (SIZ 2)
Amphorae Quadrantal (80 pints, 10 wine gallons)		x40		80 lbs (SIZ 😎	34 lbs (SIZ 3)
The Pithios or Dollum was a larger wine container than came in various sizes up to 2.5 tuns, and was usually measured in the terms of standard Amphorae.
Some (hopefully) convenient sizes have been given below
3 Amphorae (240 pints, 30 wine gallons, 1/8 tun)		x£½		410 lbs. (SIZ25)	176 lbs. (SIZ16)
6 Amphorae (480 pints, 60 wine gallons, ¼ tun)		x£1		820 lbs. (SIZ32)	352 lbs. (SIZ23)
9 Amphorae (720 pints, 90 wine gallons, 3/8 tun)		x£1½		1230 lbs. (SIZ36)	527 lbs. (SIZ27)
12 Amphorae (960 pints, 120 wine gallons, ½ tun)		x£2		1641 lbs. (SIZ39)	703 lbs. (SIZ30)
15 Amphorae (1200 pints, 150 wine gallons, 5/8 tun)		x£2½		2051 lbs. (SIZ42)	879 lbs. (SIZ33)
18 Amphorae (1440 pints, 180 wine gallons, ¾ tun)		x£3		2461 lbs. (SIZ44)	1055 lbs. (SIZ35)
21 Amphorae (1680 pints, 210 wine gallons, 7/8 tun)		x£3½		2871 lbs. (SIZ45)	1230 lbs. (SIZ36)
24 Amphorae (1920 pints, 240 wine gallons, 1 tun)		x£4		3281 lbs. (SIZ47)	1406 lbs. (SIZ38)
27 Amphorae (2160 pints, 270 wine gallons, 1 1/8 tun)		x£4½		3691 lbs. (SIZ48)	1582 lbs. (SIZ39)
30 Amphorae (2400 pints, 300 wine gallons, 1 ¼ tun)		x£5		4102 lbs. (SIZ49)	1758 lbs. (SIZ40)
33 Amphorae (2640 pints, 330 wine gallons, 1 3/8 tun)		x£5½		4512 lbs. (SIZ50)	1934 lbs. (SIZ41)
36 Amphorae (2880 pints, 360 wine gallons, 1 ½ tun)		x£6		4922 lbs. (SIZ51)	2109 lbs. (SIZ42)
39 Amphorae (3120 pints, 390 wine gallons, 1 5/8 tun)		x£6½		5332 lbs. (SIZ52)	2285 lbs. (SIZ43)
42 Amphorae (3360 pints, 420 wine gallons, 1 ¾ tun)		x£7		5742 lbs. (SIZ52)	2461 lbs. (SIZ44)
45 Amphorae (3600 pints, 450 wine gallons, 1 7/8 tun)		x£7½		6152 lbs. (SIZ53)	2637 lbs. (SIZ44)
48 Amphorae (3840 pints, 480 wine gallons, 2 tun)		x£8		6563 lbs. (SIZ54)	2813 lbs. (SIZ45)
51 Amphorae (4080 pints, 510 wine gallons, 2 1/8 tun)		X£8½		6973 lbs. (SIZ55)	2988 lbs. (SIZ46)
54 Amphorae (4320 pints, 540 wine gallons, 2 ¼ tun)		x£9		7383 lbs. (SIZ55)	3164 lbs. (SIZ46)
57 Amphorae (4560 pints, 570 wine gallons, 2 3/8 tun)		x£9½		7793 lbs. (SIZ56)	3340 lbs. (SIZ47)
60 Amphorae (4800 pints, 600 wine gallons, 2 ½ tun)		x£10		8203 lbs. (SIZ56)	3516 lbs. (SIZ47)
Byzantine Measure
The Greek wine containers, the Attic and the Aeginetan metretes are still favored in Byzantium, and were set to the Sextarium (Pint)
by the Emperor back when Rome conquered Greece. The Emperor of the East decided to keep that relationship, and so Greek wines
are measured in the same units. Greek wine containers tend to be somewhat larger than the Amphorae, probably as larger offset the
containers are both thicker (allowing it to stand up better to the rigors of travel) and can hold more wine by volume thanks to the cube-square law.
Quantity		Cost		Weight (SIZ), full	Weight (SIZ) , empty
Attic metretes (72 pints, 9 wine gallons,)		x36		125 lbs (SIZ 12)	55 lbs (SIZ 5)
Aegintean metretes (120 pints, 15 wine gallons, 20 congii)		x£¼		210 lbs (SIZ 18)	90 lbs (SIZ 9)

Edited April 6, 2019 by Atgxtg

[Khanwulf]

I for one thank you for taking one for the team, and dub thee "Knight of the Vintners!"

May your SAN recover, in time....

[Atgxtg]

48 minutes ago, Khanwulf said:

I for one thank you for taking one for the team, and dub thee "Knight of the Vintners!"

May your SAN recover, in time....

Doubtful, I'm working on some more prices, a bow draw weight table, horses, updating my armor stuff, etc.etc. But wine turned out to be far more confusing than anything else so far, except maybe cargo tonnage, but that's related. 

The funny bit is that the wine cask that the PK bought, a rundlet (18 gallons) got dropped from the table because it appeared to be a late 15th century addition. It seems to fill a need too. I'll look some more and see if I can find something along the lines of a half barrel in the 1/16 tun, 16 gallon range, and a quarter barrel in the 1/32 tun, 8 gallon range. The kilderkin and firkin might work but they seem to be for beer and ale. The Roman Amphorae varied but was around 7 gallons, which could be 8 for us. Romans were very practical.. 

Oh, and used wine casks are heavier than new ones. 

 

 

Edited March 23, 2019 by Atgxtg

[sirlarkins]

Keep this up and you might just get named Atgxtg the Butler.

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, sirlarkins said:

Keep this up and you might just get named Atgxtg the Butler.

Well, considering that last week I needed stats for two onagers for the Siege of Uffington, I guess Bulter beats the alternative. 

[7dot62mm]

Thanks! I've now stolen this for my campaign! 😀

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, 7dot62mm said:

Thanks! I've now stolen this for my campaign! 😀

I guess that means I should finish the one for beer and ale? 

[SDLeary]

5 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

I guess that means I should finish the one for beer and ale? 

Fftt! The beer and ale should have come first! And the mead!

SDLeary

[7dot62mm]

8 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

I guess that means I should finish the one for beer and ale? 

Well obviously And brandy.

[Uqbarian]

These are neat! Beer and ale would be nifty too.

[Khanwulf]

It's things like this that could go into a Arthurian Britain Gazetteer, explaining how the culture and lands work, and all the myriad differences that make the setting more than Sword & Sorcery with extra knightings. 

Eventually we may have a collection.

 

--Khanwulf

 

PS. "Eventually" isn't long when Atgxtg gets cranking, it seems....

[Ringan]

25 minutes ago, Khanwulf said:

It's things like this that could go into a Arthurian Britain Gazetteer, explaining how the culture and lands work, and all the myriad differences that make the setting more than Sword & Sorcery with extra knightings. 

Eventually we may have a collection

Yeah, maybe something like the Dragons of Britain, which I believe @sirlarkins contributed to.

[Khanwulf]

13 minutes ago, Ringan said:

Yeah, maybe something like the Dragons of Britain, which I believe @sirlarkins contributed to.

Oh good highlight! I didn't have these, and that's being fixed now.

I was actually thinking more along the lines of a book that fills in the culture and practices of the day, guiding players and GMs alike to a greater understanding of the tales and setting. All with tables and tools of course.

[Ringan]

That sounds good, too!  BTW, for anyone who isn't aware of it, I'm a big fan of GURPS Camelot as a general sourcebook.

[Atgxtg]

25 minutes ago, Ringan said:

That sounds good, too!  BTW, for anyone who isn't aware of it, I'm a big fan of GURPS Camelot as a general sourcebook.

I guess that means you'd be interested in some alternate takes on King Arthur too, like a "historical" Arthur.

 

[Ringan]

4 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

I guess that means you'd be interested in some alternate takes on King Arthur too, like a "historical" Arthur.

Oh for sure!  Always interested in placing the tales in the context of the happenings of the wider world.  (I read a good thread yesterday about trying to re-create a cheeseburger in Roman days 😁)

[Atgxtg]

2 hours ago, Uqbarian said:

These are neat! Beer and ale would be nifty too.

 

Okay, I've got most of the information anyway. When I started this I thought all three used the same barrels, as why would they sell onew in 60 gallon barrels and another in 58 galon barrels but they did. 

I think I'll add the Amphorae to the list too. From what I've read most wine doesn't keep very long, as they didn't know how to keep it air tight. The old Roman clay Amphorae were easier to seal and kept wine longer, but were not a durable as barrels. I suspect a fair amount of the price for imported wines is probably to cover the the costs of wines lost from broken crockery. Amphorae would probably be more common in the early phases then fade out as the game gets more medieval, but make a bit of a comeback after Arthur conquers Rome and the knights get a task for exotic wines. 

While they appeared in various sizes, a standard sized Amphorae for wine did seem to emerge, at around 7.5 gallons (I'm not sure if that is US gallons, medieval wine gallons, medieval trade gallons,  or Roman gallons), but for ease of play 8 gallons at x32d would work out best. fitting in with the progression. . 

 

7 hours ago, 7dot62mm said:

Well obviously And brandy.

If handy. I read something about that somewhere. I think they used to add it to wine  to improve the shelf life, people developed a taste for it, and that is how fortified wines such as Port a Madeira got started. 

[Atgxtg]

I updated the wine tables to include Roman Amphorae jars. I had some wiggle room with interesting the measurements and (eventually decided on making 1 Roman Sextarium (Pint) = 1 modern pint, and some other finagling to get the prices to work out nice, as I figured that was probably the important thing. I can still adjust it if people think another conversion might be better (like the roman congium (6 Roman pints) which I dropped. 

[Atgxtg]

Updated table to include Romance Period and later prices. 

Corrected an error where I had good wine = average wine. All the imported wines are good wines, probably because if someone is going to go through the trouble and expense of importing some wine, they probably want the good stuff. If for some reason that isn't the case then average wine costs half that of good wine, and so on. 

Edited April 6, 2019 by Atgxtg

[Hzark10]

Great work.  I've seen good work on horses, drinks, armor, fashions, and weapons.  What else would be good to include in a "life and times in King Arthur" type supplement? 

[Atgxtg]

1 minute ago, Hzark10 said:

Great work.  I've seen good work on horses, drinks, armor, fashions, and weapons.  What else would be good to include in a "life and times in King Arthur" type supplement? 

Thanks.  I got something in the works for armor, shields and saddles (I don't know who else covered armor, but I'd be interested in seeing it), stuff for horse training and breeding (I even added a few more types. Niseans are great, if you can find them), some prices for some other things that haven't been listed yet, a few new critters for a bestiary, and other stuff that I can't remember at the moment. 

But I'm sure there is other stuff.

[Khanwulf]

On 4/7/2019 at 10:19 AM, Hzark10 said:

Great work.  I've seen good work on horses, drinks, armor, fashions, and weapons.  What else would be good to include in a "life and times in King Arthur" type supplement? 

Cultures and practices. Weddings. Festivals. Agricultural seasons. Superstitions. Roman travel times map. Practical church impact (as in, what they do to influence and interfere with knights and commoners that makes handling them well, important).

Just brainstorming.

[Hzark10]

1 hour ago, Khanwulf said:

Cultures and practices. Weddings. Festivals. Agricultural seasons. Superstitions.

I'm thinking a bit more on cultures would be welcome.  Weddings might be, however Festivals in general would be awesome. More chances to show generosity, plot hooks, stuff that would make campaigns more vibrant. Of course, the more we thrown in, the slower a campaign would go. But, a satisfactory campaign of say, 20 years, would be great. If it continues, even more so. But a successful campaign that a gm can hang his/her hat on is very satisfying.

[Atgxtg]

16 minutes ago, Hzark10 said:

I'm thinking a bit more on cultures would be welcome. 

I have problems wrapping my head around that. WhileI know KAP5+ seems to make things more medieal, there were no medeival Roman (okay there were the Btyzantines but they weren't exactly the same) or PIct cultures. SO we kinda get astange  hodge podge of pre-Roman, Roman, Sub-roman, Anglo-Saxon, and Norman British cultures  to work through. And thats just the Uther Period. 

16 minutes ago, Hzark10 said:

Weddings might be, however Festivals in general would be awesome. More chances to show generosity, plot hooks, stuff that would make campaigns more vibrant. Of course, the more we thrown in, the slower a campaign would go. But, a satisfactory campaign of say, 20 years, would be great. If it continues, even more so. But a successful campaign that a gm can hang his/her hat on is very satisfying.

Hey now that's worth putting into the alleged Book of Courts, Tournaments (and now other festivals). Could probably tie it together with geniality.

That would certainly help in picking a winner for the grand melee. Maybe knights could earn some geniality points by hamming up a good wound or "death" for the crowd?  Maybe roll Orate to say something poignant or comical when slain?.

[Hzark10]

The Picts had a culture.  Originally, they were in Book of Sires, but I dropped them relatively early as the size of the book would have been even larger than it presently is.

Your point about Book of Courts, Tournaments, and Festivals has merit.  Heck, a book that describes more in detail about everyday life would be a good asset to those who are running a campaign based on your County.  

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

Could probably tie it together with geniality.

Yup, that would be also a good point.  Women could compete as to who had the greatest harvest, largest bull, herd, greatest raid, etc.