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Ginna Jar on a Lightbringer clan ring


Robin "RoM" Mitra

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7 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Hauberk Jon is said to be the wyter of Jonstown - is it possible that there can be a bit of an overlap between ancestors and wyters? Ie. not all wyters are ancestors, and not all ancestors are wyters, but both CAN BE the other?

I don't know of anything that says they can't be. In matters of spirits there are very few absolutes in Glorantha.

However, it would be very rare for a wyter to have a personality such that it actually had a name. Most of the time, it would be a new clan with direct memory of the actual person [in the anthropological sense... as in, 'my grandfather's spirit has chosen to stay with us as the clan wyter'].

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5 hours ago, Charles said:

The Lightbringer Clan Ring is quite constrained in who may take each role. To make a stupidly exaggerated example to illustrate the point: if the Orlanth role is taken by a female Ernaldan, then the clan will be substantially weaker in magic, in internal respect and in external politics because the position holder has negative depth and identification in the role. If there is no Issaries worshiper in the clan (relatively common), then the choice gets restricted to the best trader. Etc. for the healer, the loremaster. The Flesh Man role and the Ginna Jar role can be handed out to politically important people, regardless of their religious affiliation (and to a lesser extent the Eurmal role too).

You make good points there.

However, I would also say that a Chief or Ring that makes decisions based solely on political expediency would probably suffer magically too, especially in the ring roles that are not specifically cult or role related. Ginna Jar is nebulous, even her role during the Lightbringer Quest is not really defined. She doesn't have specific mythic deeds attributed to her and is not worshiped as a Goddess by herself the way that, say, Chalanna Arroy is. So if a clan appoints a politically safe person to the seat, worrying more about the their power in the ring instead of the good of the clan as a whole, then the clan's luck and magic would likewise suffer.

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King of Sartar says that the Lightbringer Ring has seven special officers: the five that are predetermined are Orlanth, Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, Chalana Arroy and Eurmal. The other two are more flexible; Flesh Man is often one of them and is also often represented by the "clan ancestor," probably making it symbolic in most cases. The book says that Vinga often fills the last seat, but in practice I think that's the one with the most variance. Meanwhile, the heads of households are collectively referred to as Ginna Jar, in the same way that the "outer ring" of more traditional clans are often referred to as the Thunder Brothers or by other mythically relevant symbolic names.

Because remember, a clan ring isn't actually just an inner circle of seven people who make all the important decisions: there's also an outer ring, which is typically vague in regards to membership up until they actually gather, and might at one time be all the clan's thanes and at another only the most respected elders of each bloodline or some other configuration, but certainly isn't to be discounted.

As for how clan rings are chosen, that's been answered here: http://glorantha.temppeli.org/digest/gd8/2000.10/0578.html

Quote

Clan Inner Ring Members are appointed by the chief. However, there is a lot
of politicing [sic] in some cases, and the intelligent chief listens to his
people - the "Inner" Ring, the "Outer" Ring and Joe Orlanthi the Farmer.

The Inner ring is a council for the chief. He appoints people to advise him
on the mood & magic of the farmers, fighters, etc. These are formal
positions.
...

A Clan's "Outer Ring" is basically anyone who is in a position of power;
Family heads, warriors, priests, god talkers, etc. Sometimes "subcommittees"
are formed to face certain problems. In KoDP the "outer Ring" are all those
people available to you that aren't already on the Ring.

 

Edited by Leingod
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7 hours ago, svensson said:

However, it would be very rare for a wyter to have a personality such that it actually had a name. Most of the time, it would be a new clan with direct memory of the actual person [in the anthropological sense... as in, 'my grandfather's spirit has chosen to stay with us as the clan wyter'].

I’m of the opinion that many, or even most, wyters do have a personality, and even have personal likes and dislikes that profoundly affect the clan and its politics.  The wyter embodies the clan likes, dislikes, hates and allies. The clan chieftain is also the priest of the wyter, so a clan that selects a disliked person could see a big penalty to its magic.

The background for my opinion is that somewhere, there is a discussion of the evils of Lokamayadonism that decries his restructuring of society around himself, while pointing out that the clan Foundation Ritual does exactly that around the first chieftain of a new clan.

Separately, Greg commented on some forum about the likely mechanism of Hauberk Jon becoming a wyter. As I recall those comments, powerful people usually have allied spirits (often several). During the Foundation Ritual, one of those spirits can be chosen as the new wyter. After their death, the wyter is recognised as part of the soul of the person, and they exit the re-incarnation cycle to become a minor worshipped deity as the wyter.

Note that other choices can be made and I suspect that it is not unusual to choose a powerful local landscape deity, though I suspect this makes the clan less able to evacuate and migrate in case of disaster.

regards,

Charles 

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I agree that all seven officers of the inner Lightbringer clan ring would be people, rather than the wyter, ancestors or a piece of regalia.

As I understand most of you say Ginnar Jar’s seat is chosen just like any other seat. The chieftain appoints the person who he or she thinks fits the profile best, i.e. has a great sense of community, puts the needs of the many before the needs of the few, is rather altruistic. Once that person is appointed, he or she stays in office indefinitely. There are no rules and no system to listen to or in fact represent the other households, but it is up to that ring member to do the job to the best of one’s knowledge.

Hm, I can see the point. Only I felt it was too ...well, too ordinary, I and was hoping for a bit more. But maybe that is just the way it is.

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1 minute ago, Robin "RoM" Mitra said:

he or she stays in office indefinitely

I think it is like any other clan ring position - until the clan chief decides to replace them (just like in KoDP).

When you think about the Lightbringer's Ring, the clan person that you realize is missing is your Priestess of Ernalda (who may well be married to your clan chief).  This is the likely person to be Ginna Jar.  When the clan chief changes, it is quite possible that Ginna Jar will change. Does the new clan chief marry the Ernalda priestess to cement harmony and gain an "ally" on the ring? Or if the new clan chief is married to another Ernalda priestess, would that priestess gain the Ring and become high priestess?

7 minutes ago, Robin "RoM" Mitra said:

well, too ordinary, I and was hoping for a bit more

Quite possible the clan wyter or ancestors bless or recommend the new occupant, maybe even provide the occupant with clan secrets.

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On 3/28/2019 at 5:07 AM, EricW said:

Why does Ginna Jar have to be a person? Maybe we're overthinking it, perhaps Ginna Jar IS the clan wyter. A symbolic something associated with the Wyter placed on a seat. An invitation for the Wyter to make its presence known via mystical signs or whatever if it has anything to contribute to the meeting.

I'd have said the Wyter, or an empty place, similar to the Siege Perilous on the Round Table.

On 3/28/2019 at 10:02 AM, Leingod said:

Because it's been repeatedly stated that a Lightbringer clan ring has seven people sitting on it, and that odd number is important for the sake of tie-breaking.

Orlanthi Clans are conservative in nature, despite claiming the Movement Rune, so the Seventh Seat being the Wyter makes sense, as it can always err to what has always happened, the voice of the ancestors or clan traditions. So, anyone trying to change tradition or how we have always done things needs to get 4 out of 6, as Ginna Jar always votes for the status quo.

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Having the wyter on the ring basically gives the person who can communicate with the wyter a vote on the ring. If that coincides with the chief, he will hold two votes. Which, having the last word on any decision anyway, doesn't make much sense.

 

 

 

 

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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2 hours ago, Joerg said:

If that coincides with the chief, he will hold two votes. Which, having the last word on any decision anyway, doesn't make much sense.

Which it generally will, and I agree it doesn't make much sense.

That's why I think we have to think about why a clan would adopt the Lightbringer's Ring.  Most likely this is a clan that is either: 1) struggling and seeking to save themselves within the world; or 2) focused on magic, trade, and knowledge.  The clan chief is Orlanth, advised by Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, Chalana Arroy, and Eurmal. Flesh Man could certainly come from any of the bloodlines in the clan.  But the cult missing is Ernalda, and it just feels like the priestess of Ernalda is going to be the one to help bind the community (including wyter and ancestors) together.

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1 minute ago, jajagappa said:

Which it generally will, and I agree it doesn't make much sense.

That's why I think we have to think about why a clan would adopt the Lightbringer's Ring.  Most likely this is a clan that is either: 1) struggling and seeking to save themselves within the world; or 2) focused on magic, trade, and knowledge.  The clan chief is Orlanth, advised by Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, Chalana Arroy, and Eurmal. Flesh Man could certainly come from any of the bloodlines in the clan.  But the cult missing is Ernalda, and it just feels like the priestess of Ernalda is going to be the one to help bind the community (including wyter and ancestors) together.

There is also the point of Ginna Jar being the part of Ernalda not sleeping, during the Lightbringers' Quest, joining her husband's efforts to remake the world. In a Lightbringer's Ring, the Ginna Jar position might very well be traditionally awarded to Ernalda in recognition of her active role in the LBQ. The odd man out still goes to Flesh Man, and the contrarian voice goes to the seat of Eurmal.

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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