Different forms of theism?

[Joerg]

The modern form of Orlanthi theism with sacrifice was not what e.g. the Vingkotlings did to contact their deities. According to Heortling Mythology, it was Hantrafal who created the method that became the dominant one wherever the Lightbringer missionaries went after the Dawn. It isn't quite clear whether the Dara Happans and their associated Pelorian cultures who used Yelmic administration (and probably ministration) adopted this, too, though.

In the west, there were a few cultures that practiced some form of theism already before the arrival of the Lightbringers, like the Enerali with their holy city of Hrelar Amali, or the Seshna temple in Old Seshnela. The Enjoreli bull people of what is now Loskalm had a similar level of sophistication, and the Serpent Brotherhood of Hykimi nations appears to have been some adjunct to the old serpent earth cults of the land goddesses, too, with temple cities (Göbekli Tepe style?) in remote areas.

Genert's Wastes were an impenetrable obstacle even for the beast riders following Waha's covenant, and their explorations opened this avenue only in the early Second Age. Further north, it doesn't look like there was a significant number of horse nomads in the Pentan grasslands when most of the wheels and riders had taken vast areas with agricultural people as their underlings. The Praxians learned about Theyalan theism long before the later Theyalan hill folk further west learned about it, and some of that may have merged with their ancient rites at the Paps. The Pentans would have learned from the Yelmic ministers.

Beyond the Wastes, the Teshnans are mainly a theist society (and indeed a theocracy more than anything else), but that's the current state after about two centuries of being the God Learner Duchy of Eest. That may have brought Theyalan notions and methods to them, although their older fire cultic practices and monastic traditions appear to have prevailed.

Theism also appears to be the dominant substrata of Kralori dragon mysticism, with residual hsunchen animism and Seleric imports of Pelorian, Pentan and Praxian methods actively discouraged by the bureaucracy (though persisting nevertheless).

Outside of Genertela, we have Umathela as Theyalan style theism (reinforced by God Learner experiments), Fonrit as a hodgepodge of stuff, again with potential God Learner interference, weak otherworld interaction in Maslo, weird Parondpara island deities dominating the East Isles, and Imperial Vormain as the successor of Abzered. The Sheradpara story about the three sons (sorcerer, priest, shaman) scheming against Vith suggests that they brought methods from Meksornmali outside of Abzered to challenge their father, but whatever theism they may have found in pre-Greater Darkness Genertela would have been different from modern practices. Probably similar to Teshnos if those ways preceded both the Zaranistangi and the God Learners.

Apart from Vormain and Maslo, the God Learners may have imposed some Theyalan methods on the cults they met, if only to give them a standardized entryway into the cult secrets.

We are still left with vast areas with less personal (less animist) interaction with the deities than the Theyalan model, more on a vague general initiation and development of that soul organ that allows the flow of magic from the worshippers to the deity without devoting to one or two in specific unless you are a holy person. And possibly with rites that involve multiple active participants under the ritual leadership of a head priest, performing divine magic like e.g. the river priests did when the Cradle arrived north of Pavis in the Prince of Sartar webcomic (or the Pelaskite ship priests calling up the Kraken against Harrek in 1616).

I have yet to see something like this tackled in any Gloranthan rpg rules. (At a stretch a HeroQuest group contest might be used for something like this.)

[soltakss]

What are we talking about here?

Are we talking about the basic concept of Theism "I join your cult, obey your rules, give you POW and you give me magic", or are we talking about different cult structures and so on.

In my opinion, all Theist cults and most Animist cults follow the basic "I join your cult, obey your rules, give you POW and you give me magic" structure.

If you expand it to "I follow you, obey your rules, give you POW and you give me magic" then that applies to Shamans contacting deities personally and also Shamanic/Animist Spirit Cults.

 

Or are you talking about things like the worship of Hearth Woman in Griffin Island, where the elder women gather in winter and gain Spirit Magic from communal worship?

56 minutes ago, Joerg said:

We are still left with vast areas with less personal (less animist) interaction with the deities than the Theyalan model, more on a vague general initiation and development of that soul organ that allows the flow of magic from the worshippers to the deity without devoting to one or two in specific unless you are a holy person. And possibly with rites that involve multiple active participants under the ritual leadership of a head priest, performing divine magic like e.g. the river priests did when the Cradle arrived north of Pavis in the Prince of Sartar webcomic (or the Pelaskite ship priests calling up the Kraken against Harrek in 1616).

This seems to mean that you are talking about different ways that cultists can do magic, but I am not sure.

[Sir_Godspeed]

I think it's more or less somewhat implicit (or perhaps explicit, even) that the Theyalan model of individualized (and by-choice) Cultic membership in a semi-henotheist structure (acknowledgment of many gods, a preference for a specific pantheon, and an active worship or membership limited a smaller part of that pantheon except when through communal celebrations) is a "diagnostic trait", as it were, of that culture, as well as closely associated ones that probably intermingled a lot with it (eg. the Beast Riders of Prax).

By that implication, we're left with sort of presuming that the way theism is ordered in other cultures varies from that. Exactly how - which is what I think you're getting at - is hard to say. Peloria does have cults, but they mostly seem to be a function of profession, regional origin, or civil status more than anything, and the more active religious participation is more of a nobility thing. Maybe I'm wrong. It's definitely a simplification. The Lunars seem to actually bring about a more Theyalan-style model, with their various cults, but maybe this is a wrong impression.

We might also see cultures where theistic worship is almost completely left in the hands of ritual specialists, and the general populace only participates indirectly as helpers, but do not maintain personal bonds with the gods. The East Isles may be like this, to an extent.

Pre-Time Theism is a whole other can of worms. It's possible that the current model was perhaps present in the Darkness, and even the Storm Age (Six Ages indicate that, at least) as the gods were already somewhat removed, but back in the Golden and Green Ages, things were probably quite different. I'm going to borrow from Marcel Mauss, the author of the anthropological classic "The Gift", where he analyses the concept of reciprocity, and apply that to this situation: I think it's quite possible that the theistic sacrifice in Glorantha evolved from a previous Gods Age practice of mutual gift-giving between deities. As the Gods War progressed, the line between more and less powerful entities became clearer, and the gift-giving took on a more asymmetric structure, until at some point (possibly in the Darkness or Dawn Age) it became what we know as sacrifices. This is purely speculation - but it does somewhat mirror a possible RW evolution (ie. the logic behind social interaction between humans was extrapolated to social interaction between human society and the natural and supernatural world).

[soltakss]

We know that Pantheonic Initiation is a thing, where people initiate to a Pantheon rather than a single deity. So, you initiate to the Lightbringer, Praxian, Storm tribe, Water tribe, Earth tribe, or Lunar Pantheon and gain some minor magic that way. 

[Richard S.]

3 hours ago, soltakss said:

We know that Pantheonic Initiation is a thing, where people initiate to a Pantheon rather than a single deity. So, you initiate to the Lightbringer, Praxian, Storm tribe, Water tribe, Earth tribe, or Lunar Pantheon and gain some minor magic that way. 

Huh. I've never heard of that except for something similar in HW/HQ1 so I didn't think it was canon. How would that function in game terms?

[soltakss]

12 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Huh. I've never heard of that except for something similar in HW/HQ1 so I didn't think it was canon. How would that function in game terms?

You would probably initiate to a Pantheon and get some Spirit Magic out of the link. I am not sure if Runemagic is appropriate, as you don't have a link to a specific Deity. However, if a cult gives the same Runespell to all associate cults, then it makes sense for that to be available to Pantheonic Initiates. So, Gorgorma used to give Second Mouth to all Earth Cultists, so it makes sense for female Earth Tribe Initiates to be able to sacrifice for Second Mouth.

[Jeff]

In RQG this is best understood through Associated Cults. You initiate to Orlanth, you also gain a magical connection to the other Lightbringers, Ernalda, Storm Bull, etc. Pretty  much the whole Orlanth pantheon. Except Humakt, because Death doesn't share.

[Joerg]

Pantheon initiation

In RQ3 Gods of Glorantha we had two such examples - Yelm the Youth and Aldrya Children of the Forest (the cult joined by Morak in Biturian's travelogue). Both Yelm and Aldrya stand for the head of the respective pantheon, and joining this cult gave you an afterlife ticket to the respective realm, and little more - possibly a POW check for participating in high holy day rites. It would make you an associate initiate for any number of cults within that pantheon, a lay member whose magic contribution was a tad above the general layfolk digestibility in terms of initiate count and magic channeled by the officiating priest.

The Orlanthi parallel is the adulthood initiation creating the link to your clan wyter, IMO.

On 4/2/2019 at 2:05 PM, soltakss said:

Are we talking about the basic concept of Theism "I join your cult, obey your rules, give you POW and you give me magic", or are we talking about different cult structures and so on.

Yes to both.

"I give you POW you give me magic" doesn't have to mean "I give you spell knowledge or rune points to cast that magic yourself". It can just as well mean "we all blow a couple of MP and our crop will be blessed", or similar effects. King of Dragon Pass had sacrifices prior to combat, for instance.

There is this Pelorian model where people go sacrificing to (or otherwise worshipping) a different god if the one they used to sacrifice to didn't deliver which is quite impossible with the Theyalan approach.

[Julian Lord]

It seems overly complex to me Joerg, and whenever I've attempted to build house rules following these sorts of ideas, my finding was that most players rejected them -- most players seem to dislike too much complexity, though they also enjoy at least some of it or the illusion of it.

But instead of grand principles, I'd view specific pantheon and regional design work as being key here. The Divine Magic systems have demonstrated their versatility, but too many abstractions would in my view scatter too much of their focus. Particular pantheons need firm grounding in peoples, and regions, and history, and prehistory, and myth.

There are still some weirder forms of magic in Glorantha that you could play about with a bit more locally and less systemically, but the structures of the late Third Age cosmology are important to emphasise in the rules systems, I'd say.

[Joerg]

10 hours ago, Julian Lord said:

It seems overly complex to me Joerg, and whenever I've attempted to build house rules following these sorts of ideas, my finding was that most players rejected them -- most players seem to dislike too much complexity, though they also enjoy at least some of it or the illusion of it.

I thought I'd mainly use existing stuff and keep it in the background except when I feel there is a call to bring it on.

Let me put it this way: You are having a clan festival, and there are in-laws and other folk present and participating. Don't you think that clan members' donations of MP or whichever equivalent a MP-less system assumes are way easier to process than those of foreigners without that special bond to the wyter?

10 hours ago, Julian Lord said:

But instead of grand principles, I'd view specific pantheon and regional design work as being key here. The Divine Magic systems have demonstrated their versatility, but too many abstractions would in my view scatter too much of their focus. Particular pantheons need firm grounding in peoples, and regions, and history, and prehistory, and myth.

Sure. Tampering with Theyalan theism only comes to the front when you are dealing with people who are not initiated to at least one cult, as the assumption used to be that those people are rare one in seven cases, and "all men initiate to Orlanth, all women initiate to Ernalda" for an Orlanthi All.

The Lunar provincial Seven Mothers cult appears to be made to fit into Theyalan theism, too. And we know that it is rather rare in the Heartlands.

 

I am not quite certain what magic the Grey Age people who would join the Unity Council had. Heort himself was a shaman, not a theist, but he managed to die before the Dawn facing Orlanth's Liberating Bolt, which does seem to indicate that despite not yet having returned from the Underworld, the gods' magic was already seeping back into the Surface World (created within Arachne Solara's web). The deities holding those strands and having agreed to the Compromise seems to have started the potential for Theyalan theism as discovered by Hantrafal (and quite likely others, too).

10 hours ago, Julian Lord said:

There are still some weirder forms of magic in Glorantha that you could play about with a bit more locally and less systemically, but the structures of the late Third Age cosmology are important to emphasise in the rules systems, I'd say.

The energy flows of the Gloranthan universe appears to be a bit complicated. There is the Ultimate, source of all energies, which express themselves through the runes and the deities embodying them, to create and animate the Cosmos of Time. There is the Middle World, inhabited by mortals who create such energies within themselves, unbound by those runes and rules, and they donate it to the deities or runes, in order to manifest that rune in a way outside of what went on before, and that's magic. Spent energy goes down into the Underworld, to be absorbed by the Void, empowering the Chaosium to lay on new Creation.

It used to be different, with the deities and runes direct sources of Creation, with less rules applying, but that was the cause of the Gods War, and that culling and then defense against oblivion was what led to Time and gods and other primal forces unable to manifest on their own.

 

I just wonder about the implications when divine magic isn't something I am, but something we are.

[Akhôrahil]

I think Joerg is on the right track here. If we compare to historical real-world (poly)theism, the Initiation structure that is completely dominant in the game rules would be pretty rare - what is common is sacrificing to the gods either in general (and frequently communally) or for specific purposes (going on a sea voyage - better sacrifice to the god of the seas!) or as a promise if the god helps you get out in a sticky situation ("I owe Asclepius a rooster"). This aspect is pretty uncommon in the game rules, even though it's noted how unusual people in, say, the Lunar Empire think it is that most everyone is Initiated in Sartar.

Edited April 7, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[Julian Lord]

On 4/5/2019 at 9:04 AM, Joerg said:

The energy flows of the Gloranthan universe appears to be a bit complicated. There is the Ultimate, source of all energies, which express themselves through the runes and the deities embodying them, to create and animate the Cosmos of Time. There is the Middle World, inhabited by mortals who create such energies within themselves, unbound by those runes and rules, and they donate it to the deities or runes, in order to manifest that rune in a way outside of what went on before, and that's magic. Spent energy goes down into the Underworld, to be absorbed by the Void, empowering the Chaosium to lay on new Creation.

Well, it can actually be useful to have this sort of deeper vision of the cosmology (my own understanding of it diverges from your own to a degree, but in context of this discussion that's entirely secondary as YGWV and MGWV), so that when you have a player who might have some idea about playing a more exotic type of magician than is typical to the rules, and that has happened to me BTW, it's possible to work out what the cosmological origin of that magic must be, and so build outward from there whilst retaining general and particular consistency with the rest of the cosmology in a way that still remains relatively simple and fun to play.

It's important anyway to understand that there is magic that appears at least to originate from every single part of Glorantha (exceptions like the Dead Place withstanding), including from mysterious places or entities within the Inner World, so that some quite rare and unusual magicians seeming to "violate" the standard "rules" as portrayed in RuneQuest and HeroQuest remain possible.

BUT from a gaming perspective, those "rules" are very important to emphasise, as most players are simply uninterested in jumping down that particular rabbit hole, and need instead some reassurance of stability and predictability.

Edited April 8, 2019 by Julian Lord