'Gun Fu' in BRP

[svensson]

So, for the two or three of you that might have missed it, Chaosium has purchased John Wick Enterprises and it's products. This is the developer of the 7th Sea setting.

But I have a sick, somewhat derpy sense of humor.

In the announcement thread I said something to the effect of 'would anybody who thought Chaosium was going to produce a Keanu Reeves assassin game please raise your hand'. Yeah, I know. I'd tell you that I couldn't help it, but the fact is I really didn't even try, so....

This brought up the question of how to fix 'John Wick' /'Matrix' /'Equilibrium' style firearm martial arts into a system with strike ranks.

Well, folks, how could we do that?

[Vexthug]

I'm a fan of using battle magic as feats, so adapt some of the archery boosting spells for that purpose should work.

 

Miles

[Atgxtg]

2 hours ago, svensson said:

This brought up the question of how to fix 'John Wick' /'Matrix' /'Equilibrium' style firearm martial arts into a system with strike ranks.

Well, folks, how could we do that?

Well for starters RQ3's Land of the Ninja had a Iaijutsu skill that let a character reduce the SR of his attack. On a crtical success the character could attack on his DEX SR, ignoring SIZ and weapon SR modifiers. LotN Also had Ki skills, which took a magic point to use each round, and could bump attacks and parries up to critical and/or allow for  additional attacks over successive strike ranks, depending on the weapon.

Those rules could go a long way to a "gun fu" style of play. A character spend 1 Ki/magic point rolls against his fast draw skill and fast draw ki skill, and if he rolls good he gets his weapon out and attacks on his DEX SR (which will probably be pretty good), and then keeps attacking every additional SR. A character would need to be good to pull something like that off consistently and for a whole round, but that's kinda expected in the genre.

Edited April 6, 2019 by Atgxtg

[svensson]

47 minutes ago, Vexthug said:

I'm a fan of using battle magic as feats, so adapt some of the archery boosting spells for that purpose should work.

 

Miles

I'm unaware of a Battle /Spirit magic spell that will directly reduce SR or allow multiple firing over the course of the round. The only ones that approximate, IIRC, are Coordination [Raise DEX to reduce SR] or Multimissile [to increase the number of missiles /bullets /whatever per shot in one SR].

Furthermore, BRP doesn't contain those spells in their basic magic [which could easily be corrected].

[svensson]

12 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Well for starters RQ3's Land of the Ninja had a Iaijutsu skill that let a character reduce the SR of his attack. On a crtical success the character could attack on his DEX SR, ignoring SIZ and weapon SR modifiers. LotN Also had Ki skills, which took a magic point to use each round, and could bump attacks and parries up to critical and/or allow for  additional attacks over successive strike ranks, depending on the weapon.

Those rules could go a long way to a "gun fu" style of play. A character spend 1 Ki/magic point rolls against his fast draw skill and fast draw ki skill, and if he rolls good he gets his weapon out and attacks on his DEX SR (which will probably be pretty good), and then keeps attacking every additional SR. A character would need to be good to pull something like that off consistently and for a whole round, but that's kinda expected in the genre.

Well, Jeff has flat-out stated that much of RQ3 is not longer viable or canon. Since we're talking about house-ruling here, that's not all that big a deal but I felt it ought be mentioned in passing.

The Ki rules in RQ3 LoN always seemed a bit... clunky, I guess.. to me. For one thing, they don't even start to have an effect until skill level 100%, which precludes the vast majority of campaign play.

[svensson]

BTW, @Vexthug @Atgxtg, I don't mean to poo-poo your suggestions. I appreciate the input and they're viable examinations. My nature is somewhat contrarian and I tend to poke at solutions to try and identify problems that can be resolved before a final decision is made. My wife says I can come across as an arrogant know-it-all when I don't mean to be.

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, svensson said:

Well, Jeff has flat-out stated that much of RQ3 is not longer viable or canon. Since we're talking about house-ruling here, that's not all that big a deal but I felt it ought be mentioned in passing.

Yes, but RQG does incoprate some RQ3 rules, so it wouldn't be hard for them to go back and grab this stuff too.

1 hour ago, svensson said:

The Ki rules in RQ3 LoN always seemed a bit... clunky, I guess.. to me. For one thing, they don't even start to have an effect until skill level 100%, which precludes the vast majority of campaign play.

True, but then in RQ terms that's the sort of skill you would need to pull off a high end martial arts/gun fu type of character.

Unless you just want to combine those shots into one attack, maybe a burst? Possibly equal to skill/10 bullets? So a guy with handgun 60% could shoot a burst of 1d6, or shoot two targets at 1d3 each, or three at 1d2, or some combination of 6 bullets. Then you could just port that into the normal BRP system. 

1 hour ago, svensson said:

BTW, @Vexthug @Atgxtg, I don't mean to poo-poo your suggestions. I appreciate the input and they're viable examinations. My nature is somewhat contrarian and I tend to poke at solutions to try and identify problems that can be resolved before a final decision is made. My wife says I can come across as an arrogant know-it-all when I don't mean to be.

. No problem. Nothing wrong with shooting down an idea and trying to come up with an alternate way to do something. That how things (sometimes) improve.

[Raleel]

For reference 

https://www.visu.info/john-wick-kill-count

https://www.visu.info/john-wick-2-kill-count

If I were using Mythras -

john is a master of the pistol. He’s got a bit higher percentage with that than with the rifle. They are close enough that there could be other factors. He’s probably looking at a 90-95% skill in firearms. Bare minimum. This doesn’t factor in situational modifiers like dark or thst pistols are less accurate. With those modifiers, I would put him around 130, which makes him one of the best in the world, and really, that’s how he’s described .

Hes also very strong with unarmed and armed combat. Let’s assume it’s in the same range, because it looks like it is. I wouldn’t make it quite as high, but probably still very skilled.

These two things by themselves makes him brutal. You don’t get to dodge guns. He gets the jump on you, you are very likely going down. Especially at close range, where he can make use of choose location with the gun (and this works for pistol combat) and takes head and chest shots. Both lethal or nearly lethal locations 

If you watch the fights, he’s always moving to and from cover. He frequently attacks from stealth or surprise. This means they rarely get shots at him that are effective. He’s probably got a good stealth and a solid evade/athletics for moving about. He might have a bonus to initiative that is above normal, but often he doesn’t need one - he’s ambushing.

Often he’s fighting multiple guys, which would make his evade useful, so he could Outmaneuvre them, blocking lines of sight and limiting how many can attack him. The house fight is a perfect example of this  

He has a passion for his wife, dog, and car. These augment nearly everything he does, because it’s the point of the movie. That’s another 10-20%, probably 20%.

[colinabrett]

Would a PC need two character sheets? One for in the Matrix and one for in the "real world". Neo has skills uploaded into his brain ("I know Kung Fu") but do those skills work in Morpheus's ship? Their training session is in a construct, not the hold of the Nebuchanezzar. We could make all uploaded Matrix skills Difficult in the real world.

Then, of course, we have the difference between Matrix-born and naturally born characters (like Tank and Gozer). Keeping non-Matrix characters involved in a Matrix run is much like the problems in Cyberpunk genre games where the Hacker spends an hour of game time in the Net, while the rest of the PCs twiddle their thumbs.

Also, could a Matrix-personality (avatar?) have Superpowers in the Matrix? The Leap power would allow the character to succeed at the Jump program, for instance.

Just a few more ideas here.

Colin

[seneschal]

Easter is coming.  We need Bun Fu

[svensson]

7 hours ago, seneschal said:

Easter is coming.  We need Bun Fu

More importantly, the Day AFTER Easter [when all the Easter candy goes on sale...] is coming

 

[g33k]

7 hours ago, svensson said:

More importantly, the Day AFTER Easter [when all the Easter candy goes on sale...] is coming

 

Of course.

This explains EVERYTHING.

It's not secretly the pagan Eostre we're celebrating...

 

 

It's secretly Glorantha's Eurmal.

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

It's secretly Glorantha's Eurmal.

Nah, He already stole his candy

[g33k]

3 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Nah, He already stole his candy

Maybe, but that's just a side job.

Eurmal has got everyone to buy into the idea of slipping Disorder to all this children on Sunday (always Sunday, note) so they can be flipping between sugar-rush and sugar-crash the following week.

[Atgxtg]

24 minutes ago, g33k said:

Maybe, but that's just a side job.

Eurmal has got everyone to buy into the idea of slipping Disorder to all this children on Sunday (always Sunday, note) so they can be flipping between sugar-rush and sugar-crash the following week.

I wonder if he has a deal going with the Dentist cult. 

[svensson]

When you're the 'bad' uncle, Easter is AWESOME

You buy up a bunch of candy on Easter Monday and feed it to the nieces and nephews three weeks later at the family picnic. And then send their screaming, sugar-spinning rumps home with your sisters.

People say 'Evil' like there's something wrong with it or something....

[Atgxtg]

21 minutes ago, svensson said:

People say 'Evil' like there's something wrong with it or something....

Don'cha'no 'Evil' is the new kewl. 

[g33k]

Hey there!

All of you STOP THAT RIGHT NOW!!!

I have spent YEARS convincing my players that I am NOT "Evil."

 

I am "Goodness Challenged."

[Atgxtg]

4 hours ago, g33k said:

I have spent YEARS convincing my players that I am NOT "Evil."

Successfully? 

 

[Bill the barbarian]

On 4/6/2019 at 7:31 AM, svensson said:

In the announcement thread I said something to the effect of 'would anybody who thought Chaosium was going to produce a Keanu Reeves assassin game please raise your hand'. Yeah, I know. I'd tell you that I couldn't help it, but the fact is I really didn't even try, so....

 

Quite so!

 

On 4/8/2019 at 1:20 PM, g33k said:

Eurmal has got everyone to buy into the idea of slipping Disorder to all this children on Sunday (always Sunday, note) so they can be flipping between sugar-rush and sugar-crash the following week.

Only Eurmal could sell that the brown eggs a rabbit just laid are chocolate.

Edited June 2, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[Raleel]

On 4/6/2019 at 4:07 PM, Raleel said:

For reference 

https://www.visu.info/john-wick-kill-count

https://www.visu.info/john-wick-2-kill-count

If I were using Mythras -

john is a master of the pistol. He’s got a bit higher percentage with that than with the rifle. They are close enough that there could be other factors. He’s probably looking at a 90-95% skill in firearms. Bare minimum. This doesn’t factor in situational modifiers like dark or thst pistols are less accurate. With those modifiers, I would put him around 130, which makes him one of the best in the world, and really, that’s how he’s described .

Hes also very strong with unarmed and armed combat. Let’s assume it’s in the same range, because it looks like it is. I wouldn’t make it quite as high, but probably still very skilled.

These two things by themselves makes him brutal. You don’t get to dodge guns. He gets the jump on you, you are very likely going down. Especially at close range, where he can make use of choose location with the gun (and this works for pistol combat) and takes head and chest shots. Both lethal or nearly lethal locations 

If you watch the fights, he’s always moving to and from cover. He frequently attacks from stealth or surprise. This means they rarely get shots at him that are effective. He’s probably got a good stealth and a solid evade/athletics for moving about. He might have a bonus to initiative that is above normal, but often he doesn’t need one - he’s ambushing.

Often he’s fighting multiple guys, which would make his evade useful, so he could Outmaneuvre them, blocking lines of sight and limiting how many can attack him. The house fight is a perfect example of this  

He has a passion for his wife, dog, and car. These augment nearly everything he does, because it’s the point of the movie. That’s another 10-20%, probably 20%.

quoting myself for reference, but I'll put some more in here, since I saw JW3

armor on the mooks is AP8-10. This is enough to stop all those handguns, who are pulling 1d8+1 on the outside. John tends to use .45 ACP, which is in that range. His moves where he is opening helmets and firing in is a grip + a special effect or two. Problem is, it's slow, even when he's that good, and likely to get tagged.

Then we move to the shotguns. solid steel AP slugs are 3d6, and ignore 9 points of armor. There is no stopping them. this is evident by what we see when he shoots.

One thing I noted when I watched this is that there were a lot of parry effects on the ranged weapons themselves. This is something that doesn't come by default in Mythras, but would be an easy add - if you are within reach of a melee weapon when you fire, you are susceptible to being parried by that melee weapon, even if the melee weapon doesn't normally allow parrying. easy-peasy, and makes his unarmed skill really shine against those guns.

there are plenty of examples of reloading faster. I think this is a combat style trait - some specific training that makes them better.

Halle has her dogs, of course, and they are trained to cause a Drop Foe style special effect - endurance roll or you go to the ground while the dog gnaws you, then she shoots you. simple, easy.