Pregen Regen - Recreating the pregenerated adventurers

[PhilHibbs]

Number 2 in my series recreating the pregen characters. Vishi Dunn was in his own thread.

Sorala

Sing should be 35% instead of 30%.
Battle should be 45% instead of 50%, if I have traced her history correctly.
Customs (Esrolian) should be 65%, not 35%.
I can't get the Lore skills to line up, by my reckoning one of Old Pavis or Troll should be 10% lower.
Speak (Heortling) is tricky, as far as I can tell they've taken her Esrolian of 60, halved it as per p173, and added 10 for occupation and 10 elective. Seems ok to me.
Broadsword 70%? She doesn't get any thing from culture, occupation, or cult, so the only option for increasing is an elective +25% which brings it to 55%.
Battle Axe should be 45% instead of 35%, if she added the 25% to this then she could start with a weapon skill at 70%.
Sling, she gets nothing from culture, occupation, or cult so this should start at 25% so 45% is not possible. I can only assume that the Esrolian culture used to give Sling +10% in some prior version, and that she's put an elective +10 into it. If she puts that +10 into Self Bow instead then that would be 45% so that's an option for a missile weapon at the same level.
Sorcery skills are ok assuming a +25 and a +10 as elective choices.

In total that required 5 skills to be raised by +25% and 7 with +10%, one and two more than is allowed respectively.

All in all, not too bad apart from Customs (Esrolian) being just over half what it should be, Broadsword instead of Battle Axe, Sling instead of Self Bow, and significantly more elective skill choices.

I haven't checked exhaustively, but I think she's 15 or 20% up in total.

Edited April 22, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[PhilHibbs]

Nathem

Dodge should be 44% not 49%
Ride should be 20% not 15%
Animal Lore should be 35%, not 30%
Cult Lore (Odayla) should be 20%, not 15%
Homeland Lore (Old Tarsh) should be 40%, not 30%
Spirit Combat should be 40% not 35%
Worship (Odayla) should be 30% not 15%
Conceal should be 25% not 15%
Listen can't be 50%, if he takes an elective +10 then it's 45%, +25% would give 60%
Hide should be 25%, not 30%
Move Quietly should be 40%, not 45%, if he takes an elective +25%
Speak (Heortling) - should start at 10% as 1/5 of Tarshite, so 25% is not possible. I assume that this is an elective +25% and they didn't take into account the 1/5 default. Should be 35%.
Composite Bow should be 80%, not 70%, assuming an elective +25%

I make it 50% down on the numbers, as I had to take 7 skills at +10% instead of 5 to make all the others line up.
 

Edited April 30, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[PhilHibbs]

Vostor

Intrigue should be 10% not 15%
Farm should be 40% not 35%
Homeland Lore (Lunar Tarsh) should be 35% not 30%
Meditate should be 10% not 15%
Spirit Combat should be 40% not 45%
Worship (Seven Mothers) should be 30% not 35%
Perception modifier should be +5% not 0
Search should be 30% not 25%
Track should be 10% not 5%

To get the other skills in line I only needed 3 at +25% and 3 at +10% so he's missing out on 1 and 2 respectively.

By the numbers, he's 45% down on what he should have.

Edited April 30, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[PhilHibbs]

Harmast

His Runes are 5% higher than they should be

I can't really do his skills as I don't know what occupation he is! Farmer? No, his Farm is already 5% below what it should be for a Sartarite. Noble? No, no Drive Chariot. Can't be Merchant as he has no third language. Any ideas?

I'm going with Noble, thanks @Shiningbrow.

Orate should be 45%, not 50%
Farm should be 40%, not 35%
Move Quietly should be 25%, not 30%
Speak Own (Heortling) should be 55%, not 60%
Speak (Tradetalk) should be 65%, not 45%

So far he's down 10%, but for elective skills I had to take 5 at +25% and 1 at +10% instead of 4 and 5 respectively, so that makes a total of 25% down on what he should get.

Oh, and his ransom as a noble should be 1000L not 500L.

Edited April 29, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[Shiningbrow]

25 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Harmast

His Runes are 5% higher than they should be

I can't really do his skills as I don't know what occupation he is! Farmer? No, his Farm is already 5% below what it should be for a Sartarite. Noble? No, no Drive Chariot. Can't be Merchant as he has no third language. Any ideas?

Noble has Ride or Drive chariot at +10%.

He's got a high Broadsword and ok Medium Shield, plus ok Orate, Manage Household at levels I'd expect from a Noble, and he could have seriously bumped up Bargain (+25% from choices, +Issaries Cult Skill), and he seems to have the language skills of a noble (own, Tradetalk, and R/W Thelayan).

Edited April 22, 2019 by Shiningbrow
add skills

[EpicureanDM]

Nice work, Phil.

[PhilHibbs]

Also, Harmast's weapon stat block has a small mistake - his javelin damage should be 1D10+1D2 as thrown weapons get half damage bonus.

[PhilHibbs]

Yanioth

She's 5 points down on her Runes
Swim 40% - doesn't make sense, should start at 20% and the only options are the elective +10 or +25
Orate 60% should be 55% if she's taken an elective +25
Cult Lore (Ernalda) 40% should be 55%, pretty important for an apprentice priestess
Farm 30% should be 35%
Worship (Ernalda) 70% should be 65%
Composite Bow 45% should be 35% or 50% depending on whether she took +10 or +25

The number of other skills that can be explained by the elective +10 or +25 don't line up exactly either, and she clearly hasn't taken the +20 or +15 to cult skills.

In points terms she's 25% down.

Edited April 29, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[JavaApp]

Phil, can you post a link for your Iconic character worksheets?

I ran a tournament adventure a couple of months ago, and the main complaint was that the character sheets from the book weren't organized well. More than one person said that they wanted a more 'normal' character sheet. 

If you have the original stats on your sheet, then we could PDF and send it to Todd Gardiner, so that they can be distributed to tournament and demo GMs.  

If you only have the new stats, send me a link for that, and I will make the necessary adjustments. The last time I heard, there wasn't much enthusiasm for errata'ing the Iconics, so let us know if that gets decided on as well. 

 

Thanks!

[klecser]

I'm really enjoying this thread. The analytical drive in me suggested that a lot of the combat percentages were inflated based upon my rookie understanding of the rules. This isn't out of the ordinary in RPGs, but it bothers me because it makes drawing models from pre-gens for creation less satisfying.

[Bill the barbarian]

On 4/27/2019 at 3:56 PM, PhilHibbs said:

Also, Harmast's weapon stat block has a small mistake - his javelin damage should be 1D10+1D2 as thrown weapons get half damage bonus.

Alas Phil, not so. That was RQ 2 not RQ RiG "Javelins, Spears, and Darts" are a separate category from "Thrown Weapons" From page 212 in RQ RiG. 

Javelins, Spears, and Darts

Atlatl: A short stick with a socket at one end used to add range and damage to a thrown javelin or dart. Using an atlatl makes a javelin slower to use (it must be reloaded) but allows for more force, giving greater range and causing additional damage. Price: 10 L.

Dart: A short, weighted point suitable for throwing. These may be kept clipped on the inside of a large shield for convenience. Price: 25 L.

Javelin: See page 211. Spear, Short: See page 211.

Thrown Weapons

Axe, Throwing: See page 210. Dagger, Throwing: See page 210. Rock: A fist-sized rock. Price: —

[Shiningbrow]

3 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Alas Phil, not so. That was RQ 2 not RQ RiG "Javelins, Spears, and Darts" are a separate category from "Thrown Weapons" From page 212 in RQ RiG. 

Javelins, Spears, and Darts

Atlatl: A short stick with a socket at one end used to add range and damage to a thrown javelin or dart. Using an atlatl makes a javelin slower to use (it must be reloaded) but allows for more force, giving greater range and causing additional damage. Price: 10 L.

Dart: A short, weighted point suitable for throwing. These may be kept clipped on the inside of a large shield for convenience. Price: 25 L.

Javelin: See page 211. Spear, Short: See page 211.

Thrown Weapons

Axe, Throwing: See page 210. Dagger, Throwing: See page 210. Rock: A fist-sized rock. Price: —

Prior to this section you've quoted is the paragraph on p 211 :-

Missile Weapons
Missile weapons are weapons that leave the grasp or possession of the user to reach their target, usually traveling through the air. There are two types of missile weapons: thrown and projectile: thrown weapons are typically melee weapons that are balanced for throwing. Thus, the javelin is a one-handed spear that can also be thrown. This category includes throwing axes, darts, throwing daggers, javelins, and rocks. . Projectile weapons are weapons that project a missile at a target. This category includes bows, crossbows, slings, atlatl, and staff slings. (my emphasis)

The paragraphs relating to Thrown Weapon Damage Bonus says "If an adventurer using a thrown weapon has a damage bonus due to STR and SIZ, their thrown weapon gains only 1/2 the normal effect of the damage bonus. "

Thus, yes, the 1/2 DB should apply.

[Bill the barbarian]

43 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Prior to this section you've quoted is the paragraph on p 211 :-

Missile Weapons
Missile weapons are weapons that leave the grasp or possession of the user to reach their target, usually traveling through the air. There are two types of missile weapons: thrown and projectile: thrown weapons are typically melee weapons that are balanced for throwing. Thus, the javelin is a one-handed spear that can also be thrown. This category includes throwing axes, darts, throwing daggers, javelins, and rocks. . Projectile weapons are weapons that project a missile at a target. This category includes bows, crossbows, slings, atlatl, and staff slings. (my emphasis)

 The paragraphs relating to Thrown Weapon Damage Bonus says "If an adventurer using a thrown weapon has a damage bonus due to STR and SIZ, their thrown weapon gains only 1/2 the normal effect of the damage bonus. "

Thus, yes, the 1/2 DB should apply.

Yeah, that  paragraph a very long 4 and an half columns away and a large table between makes all the difference in interpreting the paragraph I quoted.

Cheers

[Shiningbrow]

2 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Yeah, that  paragraph a very long 4 and an half columns away and a large table between makes all the difference in interpreting the paragraph I quoted.

Cheers

True...

I went looking for it because the paragraphs and the interpretation* just didn't make sense (which is unusual for RQ... there's usually a good logic behind their rules).

 

(*not your thinking, but the way it was phrased that led to your thinking)

Edited April 29, 2019 by Shiningbrow
Added details

[Bill the barbarian]

Understood, this is simply a case of making a mistake in public leading to good things for all concerned. 

[PhilHibbs]

12 hours ago, JavaApp said:

Phil, can you post a link for your Iconic character worksheets?

Sure, I'll do that tonight, maybe tomorrow, they will need a little tidying up, adding passions, spells, etc. I'll make sure the versions I share end up with the same numbers as the original pregens, and I will probably make an alternative set that follow the rules to end up as close as I can get them.

[g33k]

13 hours ago, JavaApp said:

... and the main complaint was that the character sheets from the book weren't organized well. More than one person said that they wanted a more 'normal' character sheet ...

Ditto.

I had at least one "walk-by" who stopped to look, on FreeRPG Day when the RQG QS dropped, who declined to sit down and play; because (as they expressed it) the sheets were so "unusable."  They are wonderfully laid out graphically for browsing, but VERY awkward at the gaming table in-use.

 

[PhilHibbs]

I've begun linking each character to the spreadsheet version. I've never tried printing them! Let me know how you get on.

These are the "vanilla" pregens, all skills should be set up to exactly match the levels printed in the rules. I might present my alternative by-the-rules variants later. I might instead rejig these slightly so that all you have to do is make your own copy and clear out the numbers in the "Extra" column on the CharGen tab, and you will then get the by-the-rules variant.

Vasana
Yanioth
Harmast
Vishi Dunn
Vostor
Sorala
Nathem

 

Edited May 31 by PhilHibbs
Updated links

[PhilHibbs]

Vasana

Battle 65% should be 70%
Farm 30% should be 35%
Battle Axe 55% should be 35%
She doesn't seem to have taken the +15% and +20% to any two cult skills

All in all, she's 25% down.

Edited April 29, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[JavaApp]

OK, just dl'ed all the iconics you have posted so far, and pdf'ed them.

I'll start filling in the mount/elemental/etc sheets and then PDF them, adding them in the correct order. Won't be able to work on them until Sunday, however. Yes, Jason, I am being a good boy and working on my assignment.    

[Shiningbrow]

6 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I've begun linking each character to the spreadsheet version. I've never tried printing them! Let me know how you get on.

Vasana
Yanioth
Harmast
Vishi Dunn

 

China doesn't like Google (still)

[Jason D]

Thanks for all of the enthusiasm. Currently, though, we've got no plans to update the pregens officially. 

By all means, though, make any variants you see fit. Your Glorantha may vary! 

[Shiningbrow]

12 minutes ago, Jason Durall said:

Thanks for all of the enthusiasm. Currently, though, we've got no plans to update the pregens officially. 

By all means, though, make any variants you see fit. Your Glorantha may vary! 

I'm going to say what I think many readers are probably thinking - that's a really bad idea (not updating the pregens officially), and not a really poor official response from Chaosium.

The Pre-gens are supposed to be representative of how character creation can end up - giving potential players ideas.

They're supposed to be indicative of the culmination of all the possible permutations of the character generation process.

To have what is obviously so many mistakes (clearly, these weren't properly and carefully checked) - and then handwave it away with "YGMV" - is actually a bit insulting.

I suggest at least acknowledge the errors (ie apologise to the community!), and thank @PhilHibbs for the work put in (not merely "the enthusiasm") for the time, patience and effort that gamers/players/GMs expect the writers to have done originally.

 

RE: updating the pregens officially - ummm, Phil seems to have already done that for you! All someone needs to do is copy it to whichever files are used for the printed materials...

 

@PhilHibbs I haven't said this before - but thanks!

[PhilHibbs]

22 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

To have what is obviously so many mistakes (clearly, these weren't properly and carefully checked) - and then handwave it away with "YGMV" - is actually a bit insulting.

I suggest at least acknowledge the errors (ie apologise to the community!)

I think you're being more than a little harsh there! The pregens are fine as they are. The discrepancies are all fairly minor, a few points here and there and mostly on "skills that no-one cares about anyway". If you're going to use one of them as a long term character, like if you want to play Yanioth through to priesthood, then sure that 15% Cult Lore (Ernalda) might be a big deal, and I think everyone will spot that Vishi Dunn has a lower Track skill than base plus modifier. Mistakes happen, I'm sure that last one was just a typo, there's no need for apologies.

This thread was never intended as criticism, I should have made that clear from the outset!

[David Scott]

I've used the pregens many times with no problems. @PhilHibbs was spot on with that last post.