davecake

Remember, Illuminated can cheat, and use both runes of an opposed pair. In RQG this probably means that raising a Rune no longer lowers its opposite. Illuminated Red Godess initiates can use both Life and Death, Illuminated Irripi Ontor both Truth and Illusion, etc. Not quite sure, different schools of Illumination/Mysticism . They may normally only only be able to access opposed pairs that their school teaches about.

After a certain point, all great magicians are primarily heroquesting in one way or another.

Some of the gods that are recognised as past incarnations of the goddess are of ambiguous gender. She is capable of being both and either. The Red Emperor is more mythically her son, though also part of her (but then, she is everyone, and we are all us)

Perhaps the shield boss opens like the Eye of Agamotto.

I think the Red Emperors system is just more robust, able to keep functioning even when partial failure occurs. This was a great magical struggle - Sheng tried to destroy the Emperors ability to reincarnate, and was only partially successful, because the Imperial system is sufficiently magical engineered to have alternatives to partial failure. Or to put it another way, the initial system of TakenEgi counted, now it may work only partially but at least it still somewhat works. I do not. I do not think any of the five Arkats will truly be Arkat reborn.

To clarify on Ascended Masters and other sorcerous entities in particular, its worth distinguishing between perceived spiritual value, and magical utility. - the Rokari might acknowledge that there is some magical value in direct contact with Ascended Masters or other powerful past sorcerers, they know the First Age Seshnelans used to summon up their ancestors and got a lot of magical power from doing so. But they think it is a spiritual Error, and while it might seem like a really useful idea sometimes, its basically the pathway to henotheism and spiritual corruption. And, in line with their general professed adherence to old Brithini ideas, they think the real spiritual value of the Ascended Masters was what they wrote down in their grimoires, and what can't be written down therefore isn't Logical and is of no worth. They are firmly of the opinion that (theistic or shamanic) contact with Ascended Masters is most definitely Misapplied, but what they mean by that is that its absolutely a spiritual error. - the Hrestoli loosely, by acknowledging the spiritual importance of Joy of the Heart, a spiritual experience that can be experienced but not simply learned, have opened themselves up to a degree of gnosticism. It therefore follows that contact with Ascended Masters has value, for they have experience that cannot be simply communicated via grimoires, and that experience has value, even if its value is simply to help lead the disciple through a similar experience. They think contact with Ascended Masters can be useful for certain purposes. It can be Misapplied, or it can be Applied correctly to the task of individual spiritual advancement. - the Henotheists observe that worship and veneration of Ascended Masters gives you useful magic. OK, so the sorcerers will tell you that the magic you get that way is inferior, and limited, and really not suitable for a true philosopher. But its heaps better than no magic at all, or having to spend years in study, so its good. And it works just fine. And the sorcerers think worshipping an Ascended Master is better than worshipping some kind of pagan demon, so the peasants and the ignorant may as well keep doing it. And using those shallow methods might be useful to a sorcerer too, and as long as you understand what is really going on there is no problem. They sort of acknowledge the idea of Misapplied worship, in that they think its a shallow approach to things with deeper truth, but they acknowledge it works and is mighty handy. - meanwhile, some people are probably worshipping entities that were originally sorcerous by theist means and they don't even notice that they are doing so, because the theist way of interacting with that entity has developed over time (probably centuries) so it is as complex and sophisticated as the sorcerous version. Indeed, an argument can be made that the cult of Issaries is an example (though actually, the truth is a bit more complicated than that). - and also meanwhile - the Lunars quite happily simultaneously approach some entities through both sorcerous and theist, and occasionally even shamanic, means and tell anyone who questions the contradictions that it that it will all become clear once you are Sevened. And often that seems to be true.

It's very interesting to compare Shang-Hsa (may his name be cursed).

I do not think it is, or at least it may be a part but is not a sufficient explanation. If Character A heroforms Hero X, and then Character B later also heroforms hero X, I don't think Character B necessarily becomes aware of what happened to Character A. It is tapping into a shared archetype, but not necessarily a true shared consciousness. Also, I don't think that hero X has any ability to initiate the process. While we know that TakenEgi and Belintar explicitly share the full memories of their past incarnations. I suspect there is more to it than that as well. I think TakenEgi can probably prove that he at least partially shares 6 of his 7 parts with prior incarnations (and probably fully shared before some of the Egi died). Though he may have to go through separate magical processes for this. It is an intuition based on 1) that this seems to be something only Illuminates and mystics seem to do and 2) the nature of Illumination and its relationship to individual consciousness and 3) my own investigations into real world mysticism. I could be wrong. I'm certainly presuming that Belintar is Illuminated, which I'm not sure is explicitly stated (though I think is pretty clear). And I think its pretty incontrovertible that Illumination is a central aspect for the reincarnation of TakenEgi, but Illumination is a central aspect of pretty much any higher Lunar magic. FWIW, I think an important aspect of understanding Mysticism and Illumination is that mystic cultures use a lot of magic that is, in itself, not intrinsically Mystic - but that only the Illuminated can perform, or that is far more powerful for the Illuminated. Magic that is most useful if the caster is more than one kind of master magician at once is an obvious example. But I think this kind of group consciousness magic is another - it is possible to use eg sorcery or theism to combine minds into one consciousness, but the normal result is madness, only the Illuminated are able to deal with it because opening the boundaries of their consciousness is their magical practice. If this conception is correct, than one of the reasons mystic cultures love austerities is because while they still need to practice austerities to develop magical powers, the Illuminate can ultimately break the strictures of their austerities at need and incur only spiritual penalties for doing so. They don't preach it that way, of course.

I think you are thinking of the adventure in the Pavis book?

That was the Redline history. It is the same material that has been updated in the GS. I don't think there is any reason to seek it out unless you want to look at how canon evolves - I think its entirely superceded by the GS material.

Getting theistic magic from an Ascended Master works just like getting theistic magic from a hero-cult, because its basically the same thing. The heroes mighty deeds might be of a sorcerous nature, but the process of worshipping a dead hero and getting magic from it works pretty much the same. You could probably also magically contact an Ascended Master via shamanic means if appropriate - for example, if you had a direct ancestor who was an Ascended Master, then ancestor worship might work (this is rare among the modern Malkioni, but more common in other places - Kralorela, or first age Seshnela. The idea of misapplied worship is definitely a factor, but not in the same rigid sense of ever entity having a singular nature that determines the one right way of contact. Some entities (like Ascended Masters) are far more approachable from one particular perspective, and you'll get deeper, richer, magic more quickly. Other entities are more abstract and its really more about how developed the magical techniques for accessing them via a particular method are - for example, if you wish to contact an entity normally contacted via shamanic methods using sorcerous methods, it might in some cases mean writing the grimoire yourself.

Moonson and Belintar at least, and probably Great Sister, do something more that just use the body. They maintain continuity of memory by having the new bodies incorporated into a broader group consciousness. I don't think the previous consciousness of the the body that becomes TakenEgi or Belintar is discarded or evicted from the body - rather, the mind joins with a larger consciousness. I think this is a form of magic that may not be mystic per se - but requires Illumination/Mystic insight for it to be functional, for it to work without the partial consequences lapsing into some form of madness. It requires the same letting go of the individual self that Illumination implies. It still must be tied to a single body, though. Delecti, on the other hand, just grabs some convenient flesh. His consciousness is unitary, and the body is an empty vessel is occupies.

Moonson and Belintar at least, and probably Great Sister, do something more that just use the body. They maintain continuity of memory by having the new bodies incorporated into a broader group consciousness. I don't think the previous consciousness of the the body that becomes TakenEgi or Belintar is discarded or evicted from the body - rather, the mind joins with a larger consciousness. I think this is a form of magic that may not be mystic per se - but requires Illumination/Mystic insight for it to be functional, for it to work without the partial consequences lapsing into some form of madness. It requires the same letting go of the individual self that Illumination implies. It still must be tied to a single body, though. Delecti, on the other hand, just grabs some convenient flesh. His consciousness is unitary, and the body is an empty vessel is occupies.

There is plenty of detail lacking about the Lunars that, as a GM, I'd like to know. Historical details of the First wane, many important questions about Lunar myth that aren't well documented, etc. But that is stuff I'd like, not stuff I need. As far as stuff I need goes (and by need I mean stuff that will almost certainly come up in play, and I want to handle in a way that will be mostly consistent with published material, when it appears), I think we are doing OK, we just need to put it all in one place, maybe flesh out some of the stuff that we are likely to have players refer to all the time (like major cult writeups). The biggest question I think is really that we are only now starting to have some idea of what serious Lunar Mystic magicians look like in play. And we are getting there. We need a few more rules, but I think we are starting to get a good idea of what those rules would look like. Working out what mysticism should work like has been a long, difficult, process. And quite a bit complicated by Greg really basing it a lot on real mystic practice - a subject that even among practicing mystics in notoriously confusing and hard to understand. But I think we are getting somewhere, especially in the narrower question of how the Lunar way works. And while the sources like the Fortunate Succession and The Entekosiad aren't exactly easy ones to get to grips with, I think they form a rich strong foundation for producing more immediately playable Lunar material.

Doskalos prior to becoming the Emperor was not a Yelmic heroquester, but primarily one who drew on various Lunar and Solar paths (that I suspect cross over where her is concerned). The various Dara Happan solar cults interacted enough with The Heortlings that there could easily be a myth he used to steal Orlanths Chariot (for example, there is a Jagrekiand smashes the chariot wheels quest). I'm sure he was Illuminated pretty early in his career, but don't think that is necessary to act against a traditional enemy. As the a Warlord, Emperor of the Dara Happans, and also son of the moon, he may have (at least initially) drawn on the myths of Urvairainus, who is likewise a warlord, Emperor of Dara Happa, and the son of the Moon goddess (in her human incarnation as the representative of Merinita, and later mythically as Gerra. I think Doskalos dies at Castle Blue and returns as TakenEgi, and is then later Emperor. As TakenEgi, he is something more. He is part of a group consciousness. I personally believe that usually this form of magic requires Illumination for it to happen without those involved become insane.

All three of those page references seem to imply Arkat has a presence on the otherside, as a god who is actively worshipped. Huh?

If a city god is the same as a city wyter, then Pavis is that, and that is where his Man rune city harmony magic comes from. But that is not the only magic Pavis has. Not just his sorcery, but the various magic he acquired through deeds in his life time.

Well, mystically both in that moment. But when you return to normal perception, you can perceive it as either. Mysticism absolutely allows for two seemingly opposed alternatives to both be true. The madness of Illumination is different to the madness of mindless Chaos is different to the madness of the Madness spell. And to some extent it may be obvious. But when the difference is subtle, only an Illuminate can know for sure. And not even an Illuminate can know for sure the difference between Occlusion and Mystic Insight. The Madness spell to some extent operates by opening the mind to Lunar insight it is unprepared for, but is it simply the Madness of Chaos or a glimpse of forbidden Illuminated insight that the mind is not yet ready to accept? Perhaps that can only be determined in the moment. Sheng is the Shadow of the Red Emperor, I think, not the shadow of the Goddess. And yes, a list from Lunar sources will include only those that the Lunars acknowledge the truth of. This says more about the Lunar chroniclers than about the deep truths of Illumination, though, I think.

Rashorana - Illumination is a moment of unity with *everything* and *everyone*. In particular, the Illuminated know that they are all teaching the same secret. It smashes what we would call the ego into nothing for a moment. To some extent, the Dark Side is to fall back into the demands of the ego, to try to reconstruct the ego and use your moment of insight as a source of cool powers to serve oneself. The Light Side is to see it is a source of universal mystic compassion, to remain as selfless as is possible, to retain that moment of unity with all as much as possible. But the ego never quite gets put back together right (hence the reputation for insanity), and no one but another Illuminate is truly equipped to judge the actions of another, and they can not even communicate to each other their full perspective, so it remains a mystery. The essential point here is - letting go of the idea that we are one being with an individual consciousness is part of Illumination. No one who has really experienced it can truly understand it. When the Goddess says she was also all these beings in the past, she means it, but it’s a mystical secret that is not necessarily meant in a literal, non-mystic sense.

There is an account both the Red Goddess quest, and the climax of Yanafal Tarnils quest to help her, in The Lives of Sedenya as published in Rule One. I don’t know quite how canonical it is, but it’s written by Greg so it will probably be pretty close. http://ruleonemagazine.com/Iss11/LifeSedenya_3.php She wasn’t just trapped -she was destroyed, consumed by the Devil. Her body was impaled in a spike in the Field of Waste (probably a place in the Underworld, the place for the bodies who have died the death beyond Death), but that was just her body. Yanafals brought her back through self-sacrifice. He was a hell of a heroquester indeed.

Nochet also works well if you want to do a gang of adventurers thing, a city based campaign can easily charge off to elsewhere at the drop of a hat, start it out as a Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser style game. And then draw them into Holy Country politics gradually. Or put them on a boat if you want a change of setting. The old Risklands campaign in Dorastor never made much sense to me in RuneQuest, but might work a lot better in 13G - start with a gentle introduction, rapidly escalate to taking on Ralzakark and his chaos hordes.

So, hypothetical ultra-orthodox Malkioni but who follow a practice that almost every way we look at it, seems somewhat heterodox? I do think that even the Brithini go to the Underworld and the Courts of Silence at death. When judged if able to choose their afterlife, they should choose ‘none of the above’ (regarding them all as essentially eternal servitude of some kind): and choose the bliss of dissolution. It may be that the Judge gives them no choice. I’m not sure that all Malkioni schools are as ignorant of the Underworld. Some notable Ascended Masters have been there, and returned, and probably written about it. Arkat in particular. And the God Learners of course. Though I doubt the Rokari think there are good reasons to spend too much time studying it.

I think this duality - that great fathers like Hippocrates were considered both great authorities whose writings contained vital practical knowledge, and also considered to have some divine ancestry and could be treated as a minor deity - mirrors the treatment of Ascended Masters, who are generally understood as notable to great scholars by all Malkioni, but worthy of veneration by only some. I do not think this anything to do with ancestor worship (or especially Ancestor Worship) - they are an Ascended Master quite independently of whether or not they are related to you. And let’s not confuse theurgy and necromancy. Unless you are a Rokari deliberately demonizing Hrestoli practices, of course.

So the question is whether this might be the form of ancestor worship hinted at in the Praxian Daka Fal write-up from Cults of Prax. No, veneration of the Ascended Masters is not Ancestor worship. It is venerating them for their spiritual achievements, not their familial relationship to you. It’s closer to Hero cults, but still a long way from that. You are trying too hard hrre, trying to fit a square block into a round hole. And the mistake here is to continue to make your argument based on a close reading of Cults of Prax while ignoring other sources. That’s not a rule for the broader RQ3 version, and though we don’t have a specific HQ writeup that rule does not appear to be the normal rule for spirit traditions in HQ2. Though on a close reading, it only says the worshipper must be willing to relinquish other traditions, not that they always are required to, the likelihood of getting an ancestor who knows other cult magic is pretty high, and Daka Fal has a couple of associated cults. And of course it might be only for Daka Fal in Prax, and other variations may have different rules. I wouldn’t read too much into even if I was drawing only on RQ2 sources for some reason.

Sure, but are you claiming to be able to achieve what Zzabur can not? < eyes the possible deluded heretic suspiciously > Note that Hrestol spread such ideas on Brithos, too, when he visited. And the subsequent murder of Hrestol by Brithini we may take as a response to how well that was received.