davecake

She is healing the wounded from a great battle against Darkness (or any other enemy but Chaos). She heals and heals and the wounded keep coming at an in increasing rate. The answer is to heal the enemy - and so creating peace between the two sides.

Tarsh War has the Marantaros tribe and the Iristaros clans, both Old Tarsh Exiles and part of the KeroFini. Technically I think the Marantaros is a tribe reduced to a clan.

We have many mentions of one Tarshite clan - the Orindori, Fazzur's clan - but I can't find any information about any of the others. Does anyone have info about any other Tarshite clans?

Is Uralda the only cow deity? Are you sure some of those other cow deities aren't just the same being under a different name, from a different culture? How would you tell? Ah yes, those famously simple and uncomplicated deities Ernalda and Elmal. Ernalda who wouldn't possibly already have connections to various mystic, animist and sorcerous (among the Aeolians) paths? Who notoriously raises all sorts of complex issues about identity? Elmal, who might or might not be Yelmalio, who in turn might have once been closely associated with mysticism, and might raise even more questions about identity? Yes, simple uncomplicated examples that will definitely convince us all that the otherworlds are places that don't raise any complicated questions about identity and essential nature at all.

The Yinkin cult is one that we only know of theist approaches to, sure. But a better example might be Odayla that is both a theist deity and has significant spirit magic connections. Would it really surprise anyone if a Serkos (the spirit tradition way to approach Odayla) was more developed outside Sartar somewhere and had access to the powerful core magic of transforming into a bear, just like the Hsunchen do (or maybe that 'project your spirit in bear form' thing IS the animist approach??) Of if the 'Moon Bear' cult of Sylila that was written up in the past, where the Lunars had developed their own approach to Odayla via the Red Goddess riding the Star Bear, allowed a mystic approach to the same god? Or some Seshnelan Bear society guy secretly had sorcery that allowed some kind of amazing Bear magic that looked suspiciously similar, and was known to be a tradition evolved based on ancient bear hsunchen practices? I'm not saying any individual person is likely to be able to work with all the multiple approaches at once, unless they are an Illuminate who goes out of their way to investigate them. I'm rather saying that multiple approaches might exist, that those who work with them might acknowledge the connection to the same being, and in (relatively uncommon) they might be integrated enough that worshipper can participate in multiple forms of worship (as they do with Urox/Storm Bull). And when we get back to Yinkin, are we really sure that there is any magical law telling us that Yinkin couldn't be approached via multiple methods in the same way, if only the Yinkini believed it was so? What if their mythology wasn't so entwined with Orlanths, and their cult so thoroughly domesticated and Heortling in practice? Isn't theist Yinkin looking like a weird special case, and a more mixed nature for many animal gods looking more common? I'm not particularly interested in redoing the cosmology as such. But as I said, my read of it is pretty much that the majority view presented there is what most people believe, but the minority view is closer to the actual truth.

If you want to play a game with the Lunars running Pavis, then it isn't that hard to set the timeline back a bit and use the excellent HeroQuest Pavis book. Personally, I'm looking forward to moving the timeline forward. And if you want a campaign where the Empire is in charge and villainous, run a game in Tarsh, get involved in that upcoming civil war! My players have decided that is what my first RQG game will be, and I'm really looking forward to a different take on the struggle against the Empire (one that, at least initially, includes many people who are religiously Lunar). As history advances, the struggle against the Empire moves North, but its a long way from being over.

I am not claiming that there is no difference between gods and spirits, only that it's not a 'hard' difference, but rather a mostly quite soft one. A large proportion of otherworld entities, quite likely a majority, are more effectively interacted with by particular magical approaches, and to some extent, probably a large extent, that is intrinsic to their nature. I would imagine something along the lines of the four otherworlds forming overlapping Venn diagrams, and furthermore the lines with which those diagrams are drawn being very fuzzy indeed. I clearly align with the minority view here. Just because it is a minority view doesn't mean it is wrong. Most of those scholars aren't even Illuminated, what would they know. And they are probably working from earlier editions of the rules sources. If some otherworld entities are of a mixed nature, and always have been, that tend to indicate that the otherworlds aren't really distinct and separate, but overlap to at least some extent, right?

My players (or groups I know of) have never really expressed a desire to get into the real worst of Glorantha - Mallia, Thed, etc. - but I've had ogre PCs, Illuminates, etc. But I've certainly had players want to play PCs that would be considered monstrous by modern standards, and thats not even considered weird. An Uroxi is, for example, clearly a menace to society. My point is really that you don't want good rules for evil monsters because players will want to play them - that isn't really my experience. My point is that we want good rules for evil monsters because that is how RuneQuest works - its part of the experience that your villains can be developed in the same rich detail as other NPCs. This is in contrast to, eg 13th Age or HeroQuest which is the opposite, total NPC asymmetry - meaning most NPCs are, statwise, the bare minimum needed to fit them.

Glorantha has always, right from the start, had a high degree of 'NPC symmetry'. Its basically worked on the idea that player characters and non-player characters work to the same basic rules. Literally, in RQ1, there was Black Fang, a cult that seems mostly intended for NPC villains. Its been a bit of a practical issue for RQ (its a lot harder to improvise encounters on the fly for RQ than for many other games), and a major part of RuneQuests gritty, simulationist feel. And RQ2 really doubled down on it with Cults of Terror, now seen as an absolute groundbreaking product for the entire RPG genre. But its never meant that PCs are supposed to want to be part of them. Wanting good rules for playable Thed or Mallia or Crimson Bat cultists is not the same as thinking players should play them - and I've appreciated the detail that goes into describing those cults many many times as a GM and have never had a PC want to play one. And, of course, moral ambiguity is part of the RQ 'flavour' as well. I certainly have had PCs that want to play Illuminates, Zorak Zoran cultists, assassins, etc. I don't think wanting the rules for villainous NPCs to work to work consistently is problematic.

I understand that CHA means leadership not charm. But it is a change. Formerly, some Swords of Humakts were leaders - and some were duelists, and some were champions supported by patrons, with no great need to get others to follow them. Given that they are generally "cold, fatalistic, merciless, and taciturn", it seems safe to assume that at least some of them were not overly charismatic.

Yes, it is true, that a general so inspiring that their troops will follow them into the valley of the shadow of death etc sounds like one model for a sword. But only one. And the tactiturn loner, the monk of death, etc are pretty valid as well. A Sword of Humakt with 18 CHA works. But it doesn't really work as a requirement - it kind of changes the whole feel of the cult. I think it is a rule I will be disregarding mostly.

Because it makes up an entirely new spiritual practice, as far as I can tell just to try to win an argument with me (in that I don't think the idea of either cult having a practice of summoning only a small subset of their ancestral line, quite separately to other ancestor worship rites, has even been raised by anyone before this discussion). If you don't like it, just ignoring the issue I mention (and sticking to the letter of the rules) would seem a much simpler and more elegant solution, as I suggested. I merely disagreed with the reasoning of this specific argument. How would one disagree with your reasoning, citing evidence etc, without you finding it belligerent?

My players were really quite surprised to discover that Swords of Humakt must have an 18 CHA now. Years of the taciturn, loner, grim and silent, Humakti stereotype, and we discover they are all lovable and pleasant types!

Why would you assume that? Its not mentioned anywhere, it seems to explicitly go against the justification for both cults being associated with ancestor worship (which is that both are associated with primarily human bloodlines that include animal ancestors), and the mythology of both. Effectively, in order to justify a rules patch as not just a rules patch, you've created new, otherwise undocumented, spiritual practices that have no reason to exist other than because of the implications of the rules patch. That seems a bit uncalled for to me. The more consistent answer as explained by the rules seems to me that there really is nothing more than the rules state (both are 'friendly' to Daka Fal, but nothing more), that Associate Cult status means a lot less than it did in RQ2 or 3 where it implied spell sharing, and all this is just expressed in a confusing way in the shortened cult version in the rules book and the long form write ups in the Gods book may clear things up. But I still, for my games, may go with 'Beast and Man are not incompatible', which seems to solve a lot of problems at a stroke.

In no meaningful way. There is no suggestion that Yinkin or Odayla cultists are from a line of exclusively Yinkin or Odayla cultists, and many of their ancestors may have no more connection to the Beast gods other than a loose ancestral line. And, of course, its explicit in the mythology of both that they are closely related to other gods with no other Beast connection. The average 'Alynx clan' that has an ancestral link to Yinkin is mostly made up of normal Orlanthi who just happen to have Yinkin is one of many far distant ancestors (SKoH pg 181), and have Orlanth as their primary god. The ancestor connection to Odayla seems even looser - all it really says in the cult writeup in Sartar Companion is that a few bloodlines are strongly associated with the cult. In neither case is being part of such a bloodline necessary to join the cult. Either way a great many of the ancestors summoned via ancestor worship are going to be exactly the same as any other ancestors. The idea that you use Beast rather than Man because you are summoning Beast ancestors makes some sense for Hsunchen, but not for the Orlanthi Beast gods. And then there are the Ernaldan Beast goddesses too, that are explicitly about domestication for the most part. So it seems that the idea of substituting the Beast rune for the Man rune is an acceptable rules patch for the opposition of Man and Beast, but makes not much mythic sense.

Absolutely. It does leave me still wondering why the Man and Beast Runes are considered opposed if they are treated as interchangeable in the most common Man rune magic.

So, getting back to the original Yinkin etc thread, something that has really been bugging me about RuneQuest Glorantha since I noticed it. Yinkin, Odayla, and Telmor are all said to be associated with Ancestor worship, or even combined with it. But within the rules most Daka Fal/Ancestor Worship Magic - eg Summon Ancestor, Incarnate Ancestor, Spirit Guardian or Spirit Melding - is Man Rune magic. Which is opposed to Beast Rune. So literally the only cults that are said to be associated with Daka Fal are the only ones intrinsically unsuited to it, and who can probably barely cast most Daka Fal magic. This seems a bit ridiculous to me. Mythically, it also seems a bit confusing to me that Man and Beast are opposed - many cults with the Beast rune are either explicitly (hsunchen) or esoterically (Odayla) about the unity of many and beast. Now, personally, I tend to think this shows that the RQG innovation of having Beast and Man opposed wasn't a great idea. Its kind of telling that almost the only specific use for the Rune in the game immediately jumps into problematic territory (and the other magical uses, for Waha magic, also jump straight to magical purposes that are associated with both Man and Beast (Call Founder), or the transition (Alter Creature), which is even more confusing). But I'm happy to hear other interpretations.

The difference between a small god and a spirit isn't a 'real' or hard distinction - its really a reflection of how you interact with them. Is a nymph, for example, a spirit or a small god? Depends who you ask. Even more so for the distinction be a god and a great spirit. But some beings are much easier to interact with via one mode than another, and the distinction between theist and animist practice is real if not very sharp, there is a big grey area of overlap but most practices are one or the other. So for beings that we would, back in the four worlds era, have called a god or spirit or essence, what we are saying is that it is much easier to interact with that being via a particular method of magic. That may, however, simply be due to an established body of practice - eg there is a long history of learning how to do it, and people around who can show you. Or it may be due to something about that beings intrinsic nature. Only the greatest magicians might know for sure. And they don't seem to agree. Mostly I think of it in terms of compatibility established practice. A being who is very strongly associated with the senses and emotion might be easy to contact via animist means (powerful and perhaps be overwhelming), seen as a dangerous demon that is hard to control by sorcerers, a powerful but extreme god by theists, and a being that must be confronted and transcended(but can teach a valuable message in the process) by mystics.

In general -Illumination is an experience, ot a belief. Once you have had the experience, you are able to leverage it in various ways (some of which may require being able to revisit the experience as required, and so may not be available to all), basically the list of abilities listed for Illuminates in HQG pg 204. That list may not be complete. And, in as much as not all paths to Illumination teach all of those abilities, not all Illuminates are equal. Draconic Illumination generally doesn’t teach how to deal with Chaos, and Lunar Illumination does, for example. Lunar Illumination teaches how to deal with some pairs of opposing Runes (particularly Life and Death, and Truth and Illusion), but isn’t very good at dealing with some others (notably Disorder and Stasis are hard to approach via Lunar methods). Much varies not just on path to Illumination, but also how it is approached. Magicians who have been illuminated may seek out further mystic experiences to learn further powers. Notably, some Illuminates, and probably some entire (by their nature, minor) traditions do not know how to teach it to others, or not easily. The Imarja tradition, for example, may teach Illumination only by the dangerous method of HeroQuest to the Green Age. Now, most direct useful magic is still recognizably animist, theist or sorcerous. But Illumination allows access to magic techniques not previously available. Use of Chaos most obviously, but also just combining magic in ways not usually possible. Austerities are worth discussing. I think they are a basic magic method usable by all magicians - like meditation or enchanting. Shamanic Taboos, Gifts and Geases, and sorcerous oaths may all be examples. But hey, if you are an Illuminate you can collect abilities this way, but then may not be bound by them. So it’s a magic technique that works really well for Illuminates. I think Ven Fornism is very austerity driven for this reason. A lot of powerful mystic abilities, and in particular the EWF powers from the dragon otherworlds, are essentially HeroQuest that only mystics can access, or succeed in.

I think, rather, that Illumination is one form of God Learnerism. Specifically, in Middle Sea Empire (which obviously needs a lot of revising for new terminology etc, but assuming most of it is still more or less correct) Malkioneranism, as described on pg 42, just reeks of Illumination, but it’s a minority God-Learner philosophy opposed by Makanism. Makanism approaches the one kind through intellectual means, Malkioneranism believes it can be contacted directly (and that is Illumination). Both Malkioneranism and Irensavalism believe that Illumination is contact with the mind of Malkioneran, but the Irensavalists also believe Malkioneran is the corrupt demiurge, so Illumination is a terrible moral temptation that must be overcome (its possible they believe that experiencing, and overcoming, this temptation is part of the path to becoming an Ascended Master, though). The modern New Hrestoli attitude to Illumination comes is large part from Talor, who spent his life fighting Illuminates (but probably was one, via the Arkati route).

A short, gaming applicable, summary - if the have the same Runes and are basically an ancestor worship (and optionally judge of the dead, to the extent that an authoritarian judge figure is culturally appropriate) figure, you can, and probably should,treat them as the same. Many of them probably have similar Death myths too. For other purposes and myths, the normal caveats about the wisdom of God Learnerism apply - they all have differences, ignoring the differences can get you into trouble - but many of them can be thought of as being about that specific lineage anyway.

I think I found another Borges reference in Pamaltela somewhere too.

One of the great joys of the Guide read through was catching a lot of these (though I’m sure there are many we missed). I’m particularly proud of catching the Innsmouth reference, given that it required translation from a language I don’t speak! I hope we get into part two soon! I found some great stuff in Pamaltela I’m keen to share.

As far as Irensavalist mysticism goes - I currently tend to think of Joy of the Heart as analogous both to Lunar kindling - a pre-mystic State - and the idea from the irl Western esoteric tradition of ‘knowledge and conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel’, which in turn is related to the neo-platonic autogoeides, Hindu Atman, Platonic luminous being etc. irensavalism is fundamentally gnostic -there is secret wisdom beyond the world we live in, that must be discovered for oneself. Contact with ones true self is considered a necessary step, but not the only one, towards liberation. Some sources (such as the Book of Abramelin) follow this step with magical operations such as the binding of demons that might otherwise negatively influence the magician. It’s considered a preliminary step before crossing The Abyss. In turn, I think of Illumination as equivalent to the crossing of the Abyss in kabbalistic tradition. The magician that is prepared, and willing to dissolve their ego into bliss, can then go on to seek unity with god. The magician that is not prepared (has not experienced Joy/ knowledge of the HGA) will go on to become deranged or corrupted by the experience (Crowley calls this becoming a Black Brother) -eg the corruption of Gbaji. The Irensavalists and the God Learner Malkioneranists both conceptualise Illumination as something like direct experience of Malkioneran. But the Irensavalists regard Malkioneran as the demiurge, so this experience is, in itself, a temptation or test not a reward. To use the knowledge to do Illuminated things - do Chaotic acts, join cults, etc. -is to fail the test. But it is necessary to experience Illumination become an Ascended Master, because Malkioneran is master of the veils that stands between the magician and direct knowledge of god while incarnated, and must be confronted (compare Choronzon). This is probably a secret doctrine, learnt from Talor, taught only to high wizards. So the Irensavalists concentrate on henosis - on being prepared, spiritually and magically, for the confrontation with the Demiurge - rather than rushing towards mysticism. In game terms, Joy of the Heart should be something as simple as a Passion, though it may often seem almost an anti-passion. That sense of the true joy of contact with the divine often resists much behaviour - it helps you resist fear and passion and despair, to be guided by divine love (Agape) rather than worldly connections like Loyalty, etc. it’s a subtler ability than most. But eventually, one who mastered that connection can confront the temptation of Illumination without giving in to madness or egotistical temptation. Or so goes the theory. Anyway, that is all highly speculative. And my ideas are constantly evolving - and I think I need to explore more theurgy and neo-Platonism (and actual Plato). But I absolutely think that we need to look at Malkionism through a deeper study of analogous spiritual and magical traditions, not just (mostly very incomplete) Gloranthan sources. some recommend reading: Jo Walton’s The Just City and The Philosopher Kings.

My answer to this question is more or less the Furlandan school of magic (the Furlandan grimoire Against the Demons is a canon text of New Hrestolism), the specialist school at Ienawal, etc. They have sorcerous specialists tasked with guarding against spirits, who are adapting at opposing the foreign magic of the Enjorelli. Peter is right that they focus on Henosis and improving the self, but they just don’t see this as about exerting their will on the external. The Furlandan school etc think first in terms of things like health and hygiene, funerary practices, moderating bad desires, etc (and in this sense in their less esoteric senses are part of the education of every New Hrestoli citizen, starting with hygiene lessons for farmers). And everyone, from farmers to the most philosophical wizards, strives for health and fitness (as described in Plato’s Republic). Physical health and fitness, including exercise, is regarded as fully complementary to spiritual practice (similarly to the way that what we now refer to as yoga originate as preliminary/ supporting practices for the higher spiritual practice of yoga), not opposed to it. Wizards extend this to identifying, and banishing or removing, threats to physical and spiritual hygiene, many of which take the form of spirits, and many wizards, and schools of wizardry, specialise in these forms of magic. So when they fight the Enjoreli, it is simply that they are, due to their good practices and magical defences, and a few good banishing spells, able to let the foul magicians of the primitives exhaust themselves fruitlessly. After that, it is a simple exercise for the soldiers, assisted by a few spells to improve their physical capabilities, to conclude matters.