davecake

I think in general, the Brithini see people as composed of Matter, Energy and Intellect, consider the Intellect the most important part, and think ghosts etc are just a bundle of Energy with no true Intellect, merely seeming to have Intellect to the uninitiated but it is a rote shadow. That would be saying that there is only a semblance of life after death, and it is really of no more significance than your corpse But also quite possibly they just believe that your Energy and Intellect stay together for a short time after it is separated from your Matter, and it is possible it just gets delayed. Your Intellect and your Energy are still connected when you are travelling to the Courts of Silence, it is after that point they are separated and your unsustained Intellect dissipates into the universe (or in later Malkioni thinking, is freed to enter Solace). Then again, the Brithini in Seshnela seem to lapse into Ancestor Worship pretty damn quick, so clearly it is not THAT core a part of their belief system.

You have to consider that not only do different groups within Glorantha have really different ideas about cosmology and ideas like henosis, but so did the Neo-platonists from whom we get the idea of henosis. But to cut to the point - if Henosis is become at-one with a deity, then it is basically theism in Glorantha. And this is *right there* in the terminology we use - we call sorcerers who believe that henosis is becoming one with a deity henotheists, and they combine sorcery with theism. The other sorcerers in Glorantha do not think this, and we knows this because they are not henotheist. Greg was well and truly familiar with neo-Platonism and a lot of his sorcerous thought is based on it. I think sects differ on this point too. Or may even disagree internally, or have a range of views in between. I suspect the Orthodox Rokari view is probably that you do need theurgy to achieve henosis in this poor broken world, but that participation in sorcerer led ritual totally counts as long as you stick by your caste rules otherwise. I suspect the Hrestoli view tends to believe that sorcery is important for henosis, why else would they say the Men of All must learn sorcery? But there are range of possible intermediate views, including that sorcery is not strictly necessary but is very helpful, that it is only necessary because we live in the fallen world of the demiurge, that sorcery is strictly speaking not necessary but visiting the other side is, and so on. And noting that this was something that the neo-platonists disagreed on - Plotinus seems to have practiced magic, but believes theurgy is not required for henosis, same with Porphyry, but Iamblichus believed theurgic ritual was more important than contemplation. We are allowed to have our sorcerous sects disagree too.

The Malkioni are by far the biggest gap at the moment Chaos deities are necessary, but most of us can get by on previous editions writeups. More of the Lunar Heartland deities, not just their provincial cults. And the deeper mysteries of the Seven Mothers individual cults. Pamaltela, Fonrit and the Plains

I never assumed that that means 10,000 worshipped deities - many of those 'goddesses' will be nymphs or powerful landscape spirits. But still, there are probably hundreds of minor deities, such as deities for many many common plants.

Indeed. For example, it is by no means an antonym for agnostic. But I think there is enough useful there for it to guide us a little. I was specific about meaning gnostic to mean 'there is secret wisdom beyond the world we live', and that is what Joy of the Heart is - and it is in specific contrast to the Brithini idea that right conduct in the world we live is all that matters, so it is a meaningful distinction. Further, it does appear that the Irensavalists (though not everyone who acknowledges Hrestol and Joy of the Heart) are gnostic in pretty every other way we would usually use the term. They believe goodness lives beyond the world of matter, that there is one true (but unknowable) god, that many other great powers sprung from him, that the material is created by a demiurge, and so on. I'm using Illumination in the broader sense that is now used within Eg the HeroQuest Glorantha rules - a moment of dramatic mythic insight and experience of unity, that is encountered within a broad range of cultures within a broad range of sources, that is a relatively universal Gloranthan phenomenon and the core of all Gloranthan mysticism. The current understanding of Illumination is, quite explicitly, inclusive of the core experience of a wide range of mystic paths including (but not limited to) Nysaloran Illumination, and "...Umbarism, EWF draconic consciousness, Kralorelan draconic mystics, Vithelan mysticism, the Umathelan Cult of Silence, and even some God Learner schools all provided liberation similar to that of Nysalorean Illumination." That's the core, but there is more. All mysticism is at its core involving Illumination, all Illumination is ultimately the same. So all I'm really saying by linking Irensavalism to Illumination is that it has a mystic component, not that its directly linked to Nysalor. I do not think Illumination (or mysticism, in whatever guise) plays a role in Zzaburism - it is quite the opposite Zzaburism and the Brithini (and so probably the Rokari) soundly reject the ideas that any deep inner spiritual insight could be more important than correct action and adherence to the Law. In God Learner malkioneranism, Stygianism and many Third age sorcerous traditions that have been influenced by those traditions, beyond the most ostentatiously conservative? I'm pretty sure yes, Illumination has a part. Irensavalism? I think yes, but they are also far more circumspect about it. It is a test along the way to Ascended Masterhood, not a goal on its own. But in early Hrestolism or pre-Dawn insights of Malkion and other intermediate stages? I'm not sure. But I also think that history of Malkionism has, to a large extent, been about how they dealt with with the challenges of other approaches, but particularly mysticism - from the Arkat Wars in the first age, the reaction against Stygianism in the second starting the Return to Rightness, Malkioneranism leading the God Learners into ever more suspect paths, etc. And you are right to pick up on this. It is a key difference between the otherwise closely related gnostic and neoplatonist world view, and I think essentially most post-Hrestoli Malkionism at least is somewhat neo-Platonist (and the original Zzabur worldview with Platonic aspects) I do not think the Loskalmi hate and mistrust the demiurge per se (though those that remain in the lower castes may indeed see it in that simplistic way), what they hate and mistrust is those that do not see what lies beyond the demiurge - in particular those that experience that contact with Malkioneran without being properly prepared. They hate and distrust such people because they have ample evidence that they tend to go a bit mad and cause trouble, often trouble of the 'unleashing screaming Chaos on the world' type. They've seen what the Nybie wizards of the first age got up to, and they remember the wars against the Telmori and such, and they remember the disastrous results of the Malkioneranist wizards of the second age, etc, But they also know that only by rising to full understanding of the demiurge might we understand what lies above him, and become an Ascended Master. And Talor was, of course, their local example of a perfect leader for the first age, and is still revered by them (his writings are still on the syllabus) - but they also understand that Talor was also Illuminated. Talor passeds the test. In Christian mythic terms, the Loskalmi see Illumination - eg communion with Malkioneran/the demiurge - as being taken to a high place, and shown the Kingdoms of the World. They are very aware that some people see that temptation and say "well, that sounds excellent! Don't mind if I do.". The Loskalmi are really kind of obviously Plato's Republic, to me. We should model them on neo-platonism - and the philosophies that descended from Neo-platonism, right down to its modern descendants, when looking for inspiration. And we should look to neo-platonist, not Christian, ideas. Another problem with Arthurian myth is its a bunch of stories and images, not a philosophy - and the Malkioni are always going to pursue an intellectual, philosophical, approach no matter what. I don't find that entirely incompatible with Arthurian myth, though. The image of the Grail is a representation of the true divine, which is experienced through the Higher self. In short, the Grail image is of Illumination, the Gold of the true communion with the divine that transcends mere mortal flesh etc Choronzon is only from Dee's Enochian, and as such entirely from a 'sorcerous' world view. Yes, he outwardly resembles the Bad Man, but there are vast differences. And one of the most important is that he absolutely isn't something faced by an apprentice magician at the start of his career, but guards the 'higher' realms, a challenge for magicians who have already become Master of the Temple etc. He is not about confronting the bad parts of the self/world, but about the dissipation and death of the ego. The idea that the Chapel Perilous is analogous to confronting Choronzon is something I would also reject - in various stories knights such as Lancelot triumph over the Chapel Perilous, but do not succeed at the Grail Quest. The Chapel Perilous is rejecting all of the earthly urges - but after that, after mastery of the self, there is still the rejection of the earthly self and the immersion in the great whole - before which, the self must be allowed to dissipate (Choronzon).

Yes - but I think that is from Life of Sedenya, which I think only appeared on the web, so it was a Gif requiring manual translation.

The Doraddi are not hostile to tree like growth in general. They like several specific trees. They are hostile to forests and Aldryami, but that’s different.

Where?

Not all giants are the same, yes - the Cradle Baby, although still a baby, is already larger than many giants. And Gonn Orta and his people seem to lack the Disorderly nature of 'standard' giants. But there does seem to be some relationship (or at least, Gonn Orta acts as if there is), we just don't know what it is.

The blue moon associations of the potato must relate to the Artmali and the Veldang, then.

I once had an office that bordered on a courtyard inhabited by peacocks. So I heartedly endorse the comment.

Greg was my favourite creator in my favourite hobby, but he has ended up a lot more. He took our nerdy hobby and, with his deep knowledge of the sacred, showed it could be a window into the profound. He ended up teaching me more about spirituality than any professional holy man ever has, and about creativity and play as well. It felt like he still had so much creativity to share with world still to come. i was lucky enough to meet him a few times, and collaborate with him a little. He was a joy, so interested in others and so open. A memory I will never forget is the first time I heard him tell the story of the Red Goddess, at twilight behind a school on Melbourne, an audience spellbound listen8ng to the great storyteller tell one his greatest stories. Farewell beloved Arkati trickster shaman. May Daka Fal bless and guide you. And my deepest condolences to those who knew him better than I, his colleagues, friends and family.

Sheng is worse than other nomads, worse than the Alkothi, far worse than life as normal. He is a bit like being ruled over by the Char-un or Grazers - if the Char-un followed a god who believed life was torture and slavery (rather than a goddess of liberation and compassion). So much worse. The path of Jolaty makes the nomads capable of far greater cruelties than they were before. Sure, the Grazers enslave the vendref - but they have a relatively benign earth goddess ruler, rather than a torture and slave god And no, the poor of the empire eat gruel, not scrabbling for leaves and insects. The empire is normally fairly rich in grain, in any era outside the Darkness except for Shengs rule. Yes, it’s worse than the Bull shahs. The bull shahs were no doubt brutal to the aristocracy and combatants that resisted them, but wanted only to rule - and preferably rule a productive, rich land. We have no evidence the Bull shahs has a policy of deliberately cruel the way Shengs troops were. The Alkothi, also, are brutal enemies, but Tolat is also a love god (and the Alkothi worship Alkor and BisElensliba) - They are dangerous as warriors, but not great murderers of innocents or torture lovers. The Windstop may have been somewhat worse as a famine, but was far shorter and less deliberately cruel. Sheng hated *agriculture* and deliberately threw the land into famine, for a generation or so. And Tatius may have enjoyed the effect of the Windstop - but he didn’t drop by and deliberately murder and rape the inhabitants of Sartar while it was happening. for large parts of Peloria and Kralorela, the rule of Sheng was worse than anything since the Darkness. The rule of Sheng was the Rape of Nanking, it was the Killing Fields, it was the Holodomor.

And he made the Puchair river run red with blood for a week. The destruction of fields, and diversion of resources, meant horrific famine through much of the conquered territory. And murdered and rape of subject peoples by nomad warriors was apparently routine. In the fragment from Greya Two-Mothers story that Greg published in Moonrites, Greya ( who was born during the nomad occupation) describes growing up eating leaves and cockroaches. She also describes the time her family buried her and camouflaged the tiny part of her face sticking out with boards and leaves, so she will not be discovered and raped by ‘demons’, who do rape her mother and murder her aunt. There are probably parts of the vast Empire that Shengs troops seldom visited, and did not destroy. Those parts that accepted his rule without war, and whose religious practices he found acceptable. Ignorance, for example. But for the Lunar and Kralorelan provinces that Sheng conquered by warfare, and ran his troops through regularly, his reign was hellish and brutal.

You are quite right Peter, it was published in GCon IV Compendium, I had forgotten. All the more reason to consider it correct, IMO!

Esrolia is the land of 10,000 goddesses. That surely includes at least one focussed on cabbages. Which is being flippant, but the earth religion includes an enormous amount of minor deities for every major plant, craft, many minerals, different types of magic, domestic animal, etc. The several dozen we do have names for are just scratching the surface. Just most of them aren't important enough to name or get individual worship most places. But they all are associated with Ernalda, so most of time time worshipping Ernalda or Esrola is fine, and only the ones at the top of the list every get broken out into even a sub-cult. Most of the time, it is as Jeff says, you throw in a reference to cabbage in with your normal earth sacrifices. In Thunder Rebels it is specifically noted that the magic of Esrola also works on garden vegetables, including cabbage. And in multiple places there are references to the cabbage-folk as a class of people within Orlanthi society - cabbage is the generic garden vegetable in Sartar.

Well, I'm not quite sure how ass kicking they are, but sure, they are useful if you want to kick the ass of normal humans, just might not be quite up to the task of invading the moon. Maybe, I will check my copy to see if what made it there is slightly different. Sure, but it is very explicit about that almost 100 years thing being really significant. You can ignore that if you find the sources contradicting your personal favoured interpretation annoying, but thats just a big YGWV. And YGMV all you want with all our blessings. Just don't ask me to reject Chaosium sources in favour of your (single) interpretation. Yeah, they have immunity the way mystics do, not in some absolute sense (though, of course, some mystics may go beyond what are described in detail in current sources). My apologies for not explicitly qualifying every comment with references to the sources that I assume everyone involved has read. You can't be simultaneously rigorously following a traditional nomad lifestyle, AND being locked in a torture camp? You can't both be a combat demigod charging into the sky, and shunning all magic? Sheng has more than one type of powerful follower, as you'd expect from a guy who has built an incredibly complex empire out of at least three other empires. They serve different roles. I think the Bursts practice some Zolathi practices, but are not professional mystics, but professional magic warriors. Again, I rather figured that we all understood this? I mean, you can't have missed that and still know what a Burst is unless you stopped reading at that one paragraph and didn't read any further in the same text box. But that is the Warmed, who are not the Bursts or the Zolathi but something else. FWIW, I think the Zolathi are feared, and bring terror to the population, because they are Sheng's commissars. They are immune to divine retribution and such, so they intrude into the temples of the Warmed, and especially the Fires, and mercilessly punish any who indulge in any religious practice, or preach any religious doctrine, that does not fully accord with Sheng's doctrine of 'Good Slavery', and so accept the rightness of his rule. They are absolutely willing to countenance horrific punishment for any infraction (and will dismissively reply that they have suffered worse when asked for mercy, even for many horrific tortures). But they disdain magic themselves. In short, the Rays and Emanations are the general leadership caste of the Empire - they are nomads loyal to Sheng who command his empire, and charge about mostly organising his campaigns and subject peoples. The Bursts are a small, hard core, within that group who are dedicated to full time magical combat and leadership - effectively, wiping out any concerted opposition and aiding Sheng directly. But given the Rays and Bursts are riding about all the time, who is it that is directly controlling the cities, and ensuring that all opposition is wiped out? That, I think, is one of the roles of Zolathi. (the later Lunar dolathi of the Order of the Day are far less hard core on ascetism, and fully endorse non-ascetic religious practice as acceptable, which of course is convenient for the Red Emperors who champion Lunar decadance)

Well sure, but if you are thinking long term, you'll be taking Soul Expansion so you have more POW to dump into your Fetch and Rune pool. There are probably equivalent ways for seriously long term ambitious sorcerers and priests to acquire similar boosts, we just don't know what they are yet.

Not so much via Arkat, but the description of malkioneranism in MSE makes it seem very likely that they were an Illuminated sect within the God Learners, at least that is my assumption. Of course, some other sects of the God Learners viewed this with extreme suspicion.

Perhaps, but it would be mild (like +10% or so) if so. The Agimori of the southern plains have religious connections to all of the elements except Moon, with prominent Earth and Water and Fire deities, and minority Darkness and Storm deities. The Veldang, who in some cases have intermarried, have Moon connections. \ Some of the Pamaltelan Hsunchen (the Fiwan) live on the veldt, but I get what you mean. Yes, they do not have the same elemental connections. Some may have different elemental connections, but its secondary to their Beast rune and dependent on their specific beast connection. I'm in full agreement that most Agimori are normal humans with mostly cultural difference, the Men-and-a-half are a special case.

I am sure they get some benefits from pursuing his twisted ascetism for some period of years. But that just makes them a twisted mystic. The true, accept no substitutes, not just mysticism but also demigod solar powers, process takes, as I said from my old Chaosium source, just under 100 years. The ones that do it for less than that time are just powerful mystics, not demigods like Sheng. This is a very practical difference - the main powers of the Zolathi, despite their power, are the standard mystic ones of immunity to magic. Sheng goes far beyond that. And the Zolathi are different to the Bursts, AFAIK - though both mix mysticism and solar magic, I think in different ways. He might possibly have got some of them out early, but he doesn't want to.

I believe I incorporated this into the description of the Brithini in the Guide to Glorantha. Its not mentioned in the main description of Brithini on pg, 405-406, but the section on Western Culture says "Those directly descended from the ancient Brithini average around 5 feet tall and weigh between 95 to 135 pounds."

The timing doesn't work. It takes 99 years to create the 'mini-Shengs' (mini, only in that they are as powerful as Sheng was in 1350, so demigods), he is not able to use them in Peloria until he attacks the Moon. Or maybe some appear just slightly earlier when his apotheosized - but none have appeared by 1428 when his 'brother' attempts the Ten Tests. The First crop of mini-Shengs do include some of his literal family members, though. Absolutely. All about reasserting the nomad supremacy over the walkers and city dwellers.

I think Jolaty is a Kralorelan mystic deity, possibly an obscure one essentially rediscovered by Sheng - it isn't native Pentan, was unknown to the Pentans before Sheng introduced it, and was discovered by him during his 100 years of torture. Oh, and Jolaty -> zolathi is linguistic drift, Pelorians trying to pronounce a Kralorelan term they learnt via Pentans. But zolathi -> dolathi is a change in meaning - the Red Emperor purging the mystics from the Selerian era that had adopted some Selerian ideas, and replacing them with tamer, more orthodox Dara Happan, ones.

Which is why the Red Emperor is the greatest Emperor ever! Duh! You are missing the whole point of the Death of Imarja story, and it ushering in the death of the Green Age, IMO. NOT every god or goddess dies and is dismembered, it’s a very specific myth. You seem to essentially making the leap that because they are both bird goddesses and both involve sacrifice, that Surenslib must be a goddess of mystic cosmic unity too, and I think that is totally backwards, pretty much making assumptions about the deep nature from the iconography. Oh, and while I acknowledge that the theory about the God Learners getting confused about the relative positioning of the Heron Hegemony makes perfect sense, I like the idea there was just a whole ancient heron civilization we knew nothing about over there.