davecake

The Dragon Hsunchen of ancient Kralorela are probably draconic spirit magic. And the Path of Immanent Mastery a descendent of that path - whether they are totally out of touch with their mystic roots, or just way out on a weird variation, is something on which opinions differ (at the very least, I presume the PoIM themselves don’t think their approach is entirely mystically wrong). And Eastern sorcerous draconism possibly might look a lot like Darudism. The EWF at its height appeared to be quite culturally fond of sorcery, and that they wrote their grimoires in Auld Wyrmish, suggests they thought they were making a form of draconic sorcery. On the other hand, they few surviving EWF sorcerers and grimoires that we know of (eg Delecti, Pavis) appear to have very little draconic connection. That could be due to Dragonkill survivors bias, though.

True of all higher magic, to some extent, IMO.

No, that’s making unwarranted assumptions about what I said. I simply mean that it’s magic that is 100% requiring a mystic attainment to use and fully integrated into a system of mystic advancement. But this is a point of linguistic formalism, like saying spirit magic taught by a cult, even if specific only to that cult, isn’t ‘properly’ theism. I think that this true for the most part - the majority of what looks like ‘Mystic magic’ is sorcery, Rune spells or sorcery that is adapted so that it has certain advantages when used by mystics. But it ignores that that adaption can sometimes be fairly profound. Lunar magic is an example that we now understand fairly well - by linking what seems like relatively normal Spirit, Rune or sorcery magic to a fundamental view of the world as ultimately illusory, they have created a form of magic that seems flawed and a little incoherent to those lacking in mystic attainment, but supremely flexible and integrated to the Illuminate. I think most most other forms of known ‘mystic’ magic - Ven Fornic magic including martial arts magic, some dreaming magic - can be treated as such, as conventional magic that simply becomes more valuable to the Illuminated. Some forms of ‘Mystic’ magic - possibly Arkati, Nysalorism, Malkioneranism - may prove to be nothing much beyond combining conventional magic in unusual ways, and taking the ‘forbidden’ paths in heroquesting. But Dragon Magic seems a little more profound. Not only can it be *very* powerful, it is accessible *only* to those with the necessary mystical attainment, and it appears to use different rules. It’s true that it could be approximated by convoluted changes to the Rune Magic rules, but I’m not sure what the advantage would be, other than to maintain a fairly literal and strict interpretation of the four worlds model (which seems fairly un-mystic and in-draconic) to me. There are also interesting questions about to what extent Dragon Magic is Mystic, and to what extent Dragonnewt. So I’m searching for an explanation that makes more sense to me. That it involves potentially lethal confrontation with dragons makes some sense to me - it makes it more Dragonnewt, and in addition it makes the gaining, then failure, of EWF use of draconic powers obviously about Dragon cooperation. I think that we are talking about austerities here. I personally think that austerities are a form of magic methodology that can be used by magicians of any type, and gifts and geases and shamanic taboos are examples. And they are used by martial artist magicians particularly extensively (cf the Austerity War etc). I believe mystics are fond of austerities as a form of magic because to the un-Illuminated the consequences of breaking austerities are permanent and often crippling, to the Illuminate they may be temporary or slight, or perhaps only spiritual. I think they do have spiritual consequences though, which makes Ralzakark (who encourages his followers to abuse gifts and geases this way, per Dorastor) a sort of anti- boddhisvata). But I’m really kicking the speculation into high gear here, and getting way off topic. If anyone wants to chat more, we should start a new thread.

Just generally going to agree with Martin here. The secondary weapon of a hoplite/phalangite is specifically for situations in which their spear is not practical, when enemies have broken through the wall of spears and shields. It’s a weapon to be used in combat situations resembling a rugby scrum. Shorter spears might see some use - but not in formation (other than a single throwing spear). Hoplites, and especially phalangites, might want some variation because troops might be assigned to roles other than combat vanguard (eg garrison of conquered territory) and might want a weapon more practical than a sarissa for those roles.

I know, they just seemed a little more rewarding for the high cost than some of the new ones.

I find Dragon Magic really interesting. Now that Illumination is firmly established as being equivalent to draconic insight, Dragon Magic would appear to be a form of mysticism magic, and is far far more practical than we normally think of that. While a lot of it is closely tied to the Draconic form, not all of it is - and we know some high EWFers have acquired similar powers. My current theory is that these powers are kind of akin to heroquest powers - the dragonnewts are not merely taught them, but acquire them through a form of HeroQuest accessible (or completable) only by those with draconic insight. And many of them may routinely involve the death of the quester, which to dragonnewts is but a mild inconvenience, eg perhaps the Fire Breath ability is learnt by perishing in dragon fire. Death as the ultimate austerity. It is also possible that attempting to gain such powers risks dinosaurian devolution for the unworthy. “Because they shun the elements, dragonewts do not use any magics that are elementally oriented” Fire Breath isn’t fire oriented? Sure, whatever you say, mr dranonnewt sir, I’m sure there is some terrifically mystic explanation that makes sense. Though to be one lacking in draconic insight such as myself, it does appear somewhat like an obvious contradiction.

I wasn’t quite so pleased. It seems like we got a lot of detail on magic that we didn’t really need to know in play (eg dwarves have absurdly expensive (1 permanent POW) to precisely measure things) and very little about the sort of magic they are likely to use against you in regular play. Detail we didn’t need, not much detail on the stuff we do need. I have been figuring that could be because it’s a Nontraya thing. Being able to steal Rune Magic has seemed precisely as plausible as trading Rune Magic. I know you disagree.

Generally speaking, Death can be understood as permanent exile to the Underworld, entirely cut off from the physical world. Dayzatar is totally different. He is permanently exiled to the Overworld, entirely cut off from the physical world. Not at all the same, obviously. Ok, that’s a pithy dismissal. But to the Orlanthi, Westerners, etc gone is gone - he survives more as an abstraction than a living accessible deity, but his ‘Death’ avoids oblivion, and so is significant. To the Orlanthi, Down is just one of the Seven Directions, but to the Dara Happans, Up instead of Down is a very big deal.

Yes, I do not think you recall correctly. Elmal guards the hearth puts Elmal in a defensive role, but also is entirely about Chaos fighting, and makes Elmal a significant Chaos fighting deity. And I do not know of any major Yelmalio myth where he defeats Chaos (at the Hill of Gold, he merely barely survives it).

The Orlanth Rex cult specifically teaches the magic that lets the King overrule the priests. By identifying the king with Orlanth himself, he naturally over rules those who serve Orlanth. It teaches the Command Priests runespell in RQ3, for example This is not a coincidence. The spread of the Orlanth Rex cult is specifically a means to crush the stranglehold of the (priest dominated) EWF on the cult of Orlanth, by letting traditionist chiefs overrule them. So Alakoringd primary goal is to crush the EWF, but spreading the Orlanth Rex cult is his primary method for doing so.

Yes. You have subtle variations on the myth, where it can be used either as a simple way to defeat dragons, or as a way for dragons to offer you their power and insight through utuma, or similar (which the dragon may not even be that upset by, in mysterious dragon style) Yes. Of course big important cultural myths often work that way in Glorantha. Sounds plausible. Bit important mythic patterns also often repeat. I think of it is a deliberate heroic act, rather than a natural cultural drift. That is, a small organised group, possibly including Alakoring himself or his close associates, deliberately spread knowledge of the cult, rites and heroquests, into Kerofinela, with the assistance of traditionalist forces, and with a deliberate agenda of political opposition to the priest led EWF. Once established, it spread readily, because it was highly effective at exactly the political goals it was designed to achieve. Absolutely, but he was the major Orlanthi one, and perhaps the most effective of all dragonslayers.

It seems entirely plausible to me that the cultural trauma from events like the Dragonkill is going to persist longer in a culture in which your dead ancestors turn up on a semi-regular (at least annually) basis.

They certainly have Dragonbreaking powers - why would we assume that there are two entirely separate sets of Orlanthi Dragonbreaking powers? I think Alakoring simply knew and taught the same powers based on the Sh'harkazeel myth.

My strong suspicion is that the connection of both Illumination and Superheroes with the Infinity rune is not coincidental (or is, perhaps, one of those seeming coincidences through which greater truth is revealed). The powers we tend to attribute to superheroes, like immunity to magic that should have killed lesser beings, total control of the magic around them, sound like the sort of things great mystics are known to do as well. Most of the known super-heroes we could plausibly argue to have some significant connection with mysticism or Illumination, and for it actually to have a pretty significant connection with their heroic abilities. This is easily and obviously true for Jar-Eel, Arkat, Hon-Eel, Sheng Seleris, etc. Androgeus is a living remnant of the Green Age, and we know that the mindset of the Green Age is effectively Illumination (confirmed in the Eleven Lights). Argrath, who is not a full super-hero but a mere hero at the time of the Dragon Pass board game, but seems to clearly become one later, is also obviously mystic. Elamle-ata we don't have any good evidence, but we really don't know enough to rule it out. There are multiple plausible mechanisms for her to have become Illuminated (including heroquesting to the Green Age, which seems very likely). And Harrek? While Harrek clearly hates the abuse of mysticism, its also clear that (like Arkat) he is able to understand it and take it on. My theory is that Harrek is Illuminated, perhaps involuntarily, when he is serving as a Dart Competitor in the Lunar empire. He experiences his moment of great insight and oneness, but it doesn't make him like the Lunars as a whole (corrupt sophists who have enslaved him). He then sees the Lunars as corrupt mystics, seeing them much as Arkat sees the Bright Empire. He then nips back home and murders and enslaves his own tribal god (which frankly, admit it, sounds like a pretty Illuminated course of action). He may even see himself as the taking the Arkat role at first, as Belintar and Jar-Eel discuss in Prince of Sartar. I think he may even recognise Argrath as a fellow Illuminate (but uncorrupted) early on (leading to their early friendship), and then grow increasingly concerned about his use of mystic techniques later (leading to their falling out). It is even possible that Harreks lifelong maintenance of something resembling the hsunchen lifestyle is a form of mystic austerity, like Shengs path. Harrek can't possibly be as powerful and capable a magician as he is while actually being as unsophisticated as he is often painted. So, there you have it. I think not all heroes are mystics by any means, but perhaps heroes hit natural limits in terms of the powers they can access, and superheroes must of necessity have become Illuminated, and perhaps become active mystics, to transcend those limits. I realise this is speculative, but I think it is both consistent, and also fun, speculation. Tune in next week for when I compare Sandys theory of superheroic runic identity with Aleister Crowleys theory of the Magus and the Word of the Aeon.

I have a PC who is an ogre who was initiated this way. It is interesting, because it invites initiation to Cacodemon, but doesn't insist on it (and actually having no Storm magic would make it quite obvious who was suspect in many cases). For this purposes I'm saying Ragnaglar may be dead as an independent deity, but still functions as a sort of 'stealth Thunder Brother', able to get basic Storm magic as a member of Orlanths household. In this way my PC is able to use some Storm magic and avoid suspicion as an obvious chaos plant -- but he has no magical defence against discovery by Uroxi, unlike Cacodemon, and no outlet for his cannibalistic urges, which are becoming more intense. I think a few Chaos heroquests are like this - ooops, take a very wrong turn at an important cultural heroquest, and suddenly you are cast in the enemy role and become chaotic. Similarly, take a very wrong turn in some other major cultural quests, and you find you are Chaotic now - eg do a quest about Orlanth being the chief, but lose your temper and slaughter someone who petitions the chief for justice, and suddenly you are an Urain cultist now. Or if you can't get the right allies to support Yelm's justice, but you accept the aid of un-Just allies against a more Just opponent, even if you win you might find yourself as Kazkurtum not Yelm. And in this manner Chaos doesn't always depend on maintaining an external cult for cool chaos powers to be available to the corrupt and villainous - the potential is hidden there in the fears and hatreds of the community.

The The problem is that once you try to enshrine that complexity in the rules, it’s hard to do so without actually simplifying it by ascribing to it a level of consistency. Ie once you write down rules for every subcult, as Hero Wars attempted, you are implying that those sub cults are relatively consistent, rather than a constantly evolving tapestry of evolving variations. I much prefer a level of inconsistency where we have lists of sub-cults etc, but free to use than as inspirational variation rather than the Hero Wars collection of minor runes giving us a lot more names in the main divine taxonomy, but making it more rigid and codified in the process. I certainly want a rich Gloranthan mythology that approaches RW complexity -but I don’t think having character abilities chosen from bigger lists of divine names each with a rune and a set list of feats is the best way to achieve that.

MGF and reflective of the ancient RW are not necessarily congruent - players often enjoy anachronisms, and seldom enjoy the level of inconsistency we see with the actual RW reflected in the rules. There are pretty good reasons why fashions in game design has gradually shifted away from detailed simulationism. But its also worth noting that the move from 'lots of tiny small specific runes for each entity' back towards focussing on the core runes for rules purpose had a lot to do with playtesting - and it is totally not a case of 'gregging', eg its not a change in 'Glorantha', but a rules change of how we represent Gloranthan detail in play. There is still a rune for eg Hedkoranth, and Hedkoranth still has slightly different powers to the other Thunder Brothers. But in play it turns out to be much less confusing to say 'Hedkoranths magic is a sub-cult of Orlanth that works via the Storm rune and grants a few extra abilities', than it is to have a special rune for Hedkoranth that no one else will recognise, when 90% of the time you character is effectively a Storm wielding Orlanth cultist that throws Thunder stones instead of lightning bolts. Its like caring about whether your dagger is a poignard or a saex, or the colour of your shirt - cool if it matters, potentially culturally very significant, but not a difference we care about in the rules most of the time. The hundreds of special runes in the Hero Wars era were great for adding that cultural depth we like, but make the rules more confusing, not less (you ended up with special cases of how to deal with sub-cult changes, overlap between gods, overly specific mythologies, and lots of other weird little things that actually made the rules work less like the ancient RW). But I love them for cultural detail. That bit in the HeroQuest orlanthi character sheets where you fill in your tribal/character tattoos, for example? Reach for that list...

You are entirely free to make your own rules. I'm just clarifying what the existing ones are. Apparently not clarifying as much as I had hoped.

While thats true enough, I think a Big Book of that particular kind of adventure would be fine and useful. More useful than a big book of non-heroquest adventures (we already have plenty of those we can crib).

Its also worth noting the idea that in normal Gloranthan life the runes are often incorporated into complex motifs, combined, extended, etc. Some of those minor runes are sort of that. But there also things like the mark of Zorak Zoran, which Jeff mentioned in the art direction notes for RQG shared today (it is the eye made from a sideways Disorder rune extending into 'horns' tipped with Death runes we see on this troll), and someone on the reversed runes thread mentioned a similar design of two extended Air runes, one reversed, overlapping to suggest Disorder (suggesting 'Orlanth troublemaker'), and so on. We also have other alphabets that would get combined, standard iconography, etc. In play and art it is great to mix all this stuff up. I've been working on ideas for eg Western occult art that incorporates runes but also other symbolism.

Absolutely, conceptually. But I was talking about Runes within HeroQuest (and, more speculatively, similar arguments will probably apply to RQG, though there will be differences). So I'm talking about the ways in which Runes are specially treated within the game system. Runes, capital R, generally has a specific game meaning at a few places, and so is a bit different to the average ability. In particular, a Rune is always a magical Keyword, we know PCs (and most NPCs, or at least most humanish PCs) have the three including one Element rune and at least one Power Rune. But the vast majority of 'lesser' runes can be treated as more specific versions of a well known base Rune, the system allows this to be expressed in the game system through breakouts etc, and that is a lot easier way to do it that makes the ways the runes relate fairly obvious. Even if it is terribly important to players, and play, that a given character might be a member of Ohorlanth vs Helamakt vs Hedkoranth (and back in the Hero Wars days that was represented by three different minor runes), in HeroQuest play we represent all three as sub-cults that use the Storm Rune. There really isn't a lot of value in representing it as a separate Rune, because they are all expressions of the Air rune, and outside of casting overt magic (which has its own separate rules anyway, there being no universals), you can treat them pretty much the same. But those minor runes show up in the game system in other ways - mostly, as limits on how you can use the rune directly, and in different abilities you might create as breakouts. These are ways in which characters become distinctive, but these details are outside the system of Runes (both cosmological and rules wise), they are all just expressions of one Rune. It really doesn't seem worth keeping track of them as separate Runes, especially as it means everyone has to keep track of many dozens of runes and keep mentally translating them back to the base Runes. Only when the minor Rune is either somewhat outside that main system and it has no obvious base Rune that derives from, or when it limits, rather than extends, the base Rune in ways that will apply in many uses of the Rune, does expressing the minor rune as a Rune within the game really pay off. Communication or Eternal Battle don't obviously extend a specific other Rune, or change its meaning profoundly. Light and Shadow limit the things you can do with that Rune really profoundly. So it seems like it is worth keeping track of those Runes separately to me.

Spot on. And where a lesser rune is more about a mild specialisation than about a significant limit (eg a specific Thunder Brother, or a hero cult) there really isn't a lot of point in distinguishing a specific rune in play.

The Pamalt rune is about cooperation and coming together to make something greater than the parts. The Mastery rune as a rune of leadership implies that the leader is the leader on merit, because they are the greatest in the group. Pamalt explicitly isn't the best at anything, except bringing people together (which is the best thing to be good at, because it lets huge things be achieved). So eg he isn't the best warrior, but he still defeats foes that others cannot defeat, he does so by getting many friends to help him by giving him the best armour, the best weapons, the best magic, the best advice, etc. He isn't the greatest magician, but he can bring all the great magicians to work together, something none of them are capable of. And so on. Hope this helps.

There are multiple ways to think about Chaos. The idea of Chaos as the bountiful, beneficial, source of creation is thought of by even those that acknowledge it (eg Kralorelans) as being what Chaos may be outside creation, not what Chaos is once it enters creation. The Void exists before, and gives rise to, Creation, but that doesn't mean that mixing Void into the world is a good thing. Chaos is a source of Creation, sure, but *different* creations to the one we have now. Mostly, as in the great demons of the Pre-Dark, versions of creation that are monstrous and hard to even conceive and understand for beings of this creation (which is, of course, all the justification you need to make greater Chaos resemble Lovecraftian monsters if you wish). Another useful metaphor is the kabbbalistic idea of the qlippoth. If we take the runes as being roughly analogous to the Sephiroth, adding Chaos makes them qlippoth, backwards perversions of the divine. Chaos is a bit like that. Chaos doesn't want one single thing, or work one single way - Chaos has many varieties, because it takes all the varieties of goodness and corrupts and perverts them all in turn. I do think that there is a bit of contradiction that subverts the original question. Chaos ruins things, Chaos is destructive, Chaos breaks things. The things it breaks include stories, truth, social institutions, etc. So Chaos cults in general are going to find it harder to have predictable heroquest stories that are passed down as heroquest paths through Chaotic social institutions. So you aren't going to have a lot of heroquest paths for cults like Thed or Malia or Pocharngo that are carefully written down and preserved through ritual and retelling the way the heroquest paths of a god like Orlanth or Yelm are - and the people that are attempting those quests are more likely to be driven by rage, hate and ego than rational desires. There is going to be a LOT of inconsistency, confusion and, well, chaos. There are a few cults that are more likely to keep a solid structure going enough be a bit more organised - Krarsht, Thanatar, Vivamort. But even there, the desires and hungers of the chaotic followers is going to make consistently following any heroquest path that isn't a pretty simple quest for power difficult, there are going to be improvisations and deviations aplenty. Another thing that should be mentioned - some Chaos cults are effectively parasitic, hiding inside other cults or cultures. Often, their myths are going to be myths of the 'host' culture but seen from a different viewpoint or corrupted or perverted. A good example is the initiation ritual for ogres in The Coming Storm - it is a 'failed' Orlanth initiation that turns into a call to walk Ragnaglars path and contact with Cacodemon. A rare example of this sort of thing happening when it is known and understood is the Crimson Bat - their heroquest paths are branches off Lunar heroquests I think.

A specific Chaos heroquest that was written up way way back was The Temptation of Black Fang, by Steve Maurer. Though it is written up as a Black Fang quest, its pretty much Black Fang falling into a Krarsht heroquest path. Its based on ideas about how to run heroquests from the 1980s, so its very different to how we would do things today, but still kind of a fun read. http://glorantha.temppeli.org/digest/nbelldigest/1990.06/0014.html