Jeff

Some Orlanthi (those around the Mirrorsea, many Wolf Pirates, etc.) use ships. Others (Sartarites, Tarshites, Ralians, Talastari, etc.) don't. Ships are a pretty a new thing in the Third Age, as the Opening only happened about 45 years ago. One could argue that there are NO real naval cultures outside of the Waertagi and the East Isles, although Nochet, Rhigos , the Rightarm Islanders, Handra, Noloswal, Afadjann, Maslo, etc. all have more than two generations of sailing on the open seas. That only about 45 years really needs to be emphasised. Prior to 1580 nobody was on the open seas. Nobody sailed past the sight of land. After that, lots of people did. But it is only 1625 and that's in living memory of many people. It's like imagining the world before 1991 and the rise of the World Wide Web. It is that kind of change. Prior to that, it is absurd to talk about experts on the internet - what there was was limited to research institutes (and even then only since the late 1980). A few folk had some conceptual ideas but nobody really had any practical experience. Now it is the basis of hundreds of billions of dollars of commerce and part of everyone's everyday life, either directly or indirectly. That's how big and recent the Opening was.

If you read the Shahnahmeh, leaders and rulers are often described as having "farr" - literally meaning something like "king's glory" it is a magical property like Glamour or Charisma. It is sometimes described as a halo of light or fire, and displaying "Farr" is often enough to prove that you are the righteous and proper leader, while lack of it can be disastrous.

But the Red Goddess is victorious in the Hero Wars. And it should be troubling to pious Lunar loyalists.

And here's the Heortland part:

I think I have included this tribal map before, but here it is again:

Perhaps.

Yes - I figure they are all part of the initiation process.

So looking at this, it makes about as much sense for "modern" Sartarites to use First Age Heortling terminology as it would for Alexander to describe Anatolia based on Hittite/Mycenaen terminology (remember, the Iliad was composed many centuries later, and the scholars I know do not think the Ship List corresponds to Mycenaean political centers, but rather reflects the centres of Homer's own time).

Time distance is about the same.

The Vingkotlings were a tribe founded by the demigod son of Orlanth some 5000 years ago. Most Orlanthi trace their descent to them, at least mythologically. As an aside, here's a technique I use to understand the distance Glorantha's history - I position myself at the time of Alexander the Greek and look backwards. Present year 162710 years ago - Lunar Empire invades Hendrikiland25 years ago - Boldhome falls to the Lunar Empire50 years ago - Battle of Grizzly Peak100 years ago - Apotheosis of Sartar300 years ago - Belintar unites Holy Country500 years ago - the Dragonkill War (1120)1000 years ago- the Kingdom of Dragon Pass. After this came the EWF.1500 years ago - the Second Council. The Theyalans dominate Genertela and war with the Pelorian horse people.2000 years ago - I Fought, We Won, and the Unity Battle. After this, came the Heortling kingdom, which lasted about 800 years (until Gbaji destroyed it).2500 years ago - The Chaos Age, which lasted until the Unity Battle.3000 years ago - the Ice Age5000 years ago - the Vingkotlings10,000 years ago - Orlanth kills YelmCompare this to a Greek at the time of Alexander (330 BC)10 years ago - Philip founds Philippopolis 25 years ago - the Sacred War50 years ago - Battle of Leuctra (371 BC)100 years ago - start of the Peloponnesian War300 years ago - fall of the Neo-Assyrian Empire500 years ago - the neo-Assyrian Empire1000 years ago - the Trojan War1500 years ago - height of old Babylon2000 years ago - Sargon and the Akkadian Empire2500 years ago - Gilgamesh is king of Uruk3000 years ago - Menes units Egypt (first dynasty)5000 years ago - Neolithic cities like Catal Huyuk and Jericho10,000 years ago - beginning of Neolithic age

Depends on what time you are talking about. In the First Age, the Heortlings were a confederation of tribes centered on Dragon Pass and South Peloria, called the Kingdom of the Heortlings. But this kingdom was destroyed by the Broken Council, and although it was restored after the Gbaji Wars, it was increasingly irrelevant in the Second Age. It was replaced by the Kingdom of Dragon Pass or Kingdom of the Orlanthi, which later formed the core of the Empire of the Wyrms Friends. Inhabitants of the Empire of the Wyrms Friends were identified by their clan (Ingolf of the Garanazar Clan) or by their geographical region, and not as "Heortlings". An exception was the Hendriki, who called themselves "Heortling" even though they were not one of the traditional Heortling tribes. The land they inhabited became known as Heortland. As they settled around the Quivin Mountains, those settlers also called themselves "Heortlings". But these Heortlings are quite different than the Heortlings of sixteen centuries before.

The people of Wenelia haven't been know as either of those names in some fifteen hundred years. The main groups in eastern Maniria are the Solanthi, Ditali, and Haradlaro (aka Longsi Land). All are Orlanthi and worship the Lightbringers.

The Tarsh Exiles, Alda-Chur, and Alone tribes speak the same language, but have very different histories. The Alda-Churi are the oldest, with their tribes all centuries old. They've always been more or less autonomous and only joined Sartar in 1582 or so (although they have been allies for most of the preceding century). They were never part of Lunar Tarsh. The Tarsh Exiles and the Alone tribes are the rump of the Old Tarshites who refused to acknowledge Furthest. When Phargentes came to power, he was rejected by the tribes east of Dunstop, Bagnot, etc. However, after the Battle of Grizzly Peak, Moirades took Bagnot and razed the Bush Ranges. The survivors fled to Wintertop or Alone. Wintertop was under the protection of the Shaker's Temple (who the Lunars did not want to tangle with) and Alone was under the protection of Sartar.

Yes. A lot of terminology creeped in from source material Greg was using to work out Orlanthi society. Greg had a huge amount of material about the economics of early Medieval Britain - land production, legal codes, etc. This stuff creeped into texts (although fortunately the worst of it never made it into publication). A lot of this went on to become the foundation of Pendragon, which also resulted in the settings bleeding a little bit into each other. But the Orlanthi are supposed to be the Orlanthi, not the Celts, not the ancient Germans, not someone else.

From the forthcoming Sartar Homeland book: CLOTHING The common Sartarite has both practical clothing for everyday use and some special clothes for important events. Everyday clothing is usually leather or wool to resist the rugged daily tasks of farming, herding, and hunting. Dress clothes are usually made of fine wool and linen, decorated with furs and, occasionally, feathers. Linings, exotic cloth or furs, and brightly dyed cloth or elaborate patterns indicate wealthier clothing. The Sartarites normally use thong ties or metal clasps (fibulae) to hold things closed; they do not have buttons. The Sartarites do not have a nudity taboo for either sex. Athletic and cult nudity is seen as a natural concept, and the Orlanthi do not segregate their bathing areas by gender. It is not uncommon for people to carry out tasks wearing only a loincloth, as toplessness for all sexes is a cultural norm. Nonetheless, most people wear clothes for practical reasons or to display status. Commonly, men wear a long tunic or a skirt. Over this is customarily worn a leather or quilted-wool jerkin and a wool cloak to resist cold and wet. Some powerful holy men go “skyclad” (without clothes, wearing only blue woad body paint). Men tend to have short beards or go clean-shaven. Hair is either cut short or worn long with in braids. Women typically wear a tunic and a long fringed skirt. It is common for Earth priestesses to wear their tunics open to bare their breasts. As with men, a wool cloak is worn to resist cold and wet. Women typically wear their hair in long locks down to their shoulders (and sometimes their waists), or in braids. Most people wear heavy-soled leather sandals with a long lace that is wound up the wearer's leg. The poor go barefoot, as do members of certain cults and religious societies. Headgear is common. Among men, a stout broad-brimmed hat or a felt cap is most common. Women commonly wear a fillet, a hood, or more elaborate headdresses. Many holy people have distinctive headgear, the most distinctive being a high, conical hat with ram’s horns sewn in, often associated with certain Orlanth cults. Men and women both use kohl to rim the eyes, paint eyebrows, and darken eyelashes. Jewelry is common to men and women, including brooches and fibulae, bracelets, arm rings, finger rings, and necklaces and neck rings. Only women wear earrings.

And for that I blame my good friend and gaming partner David Dunham.

The tribes of Tarsh in the map the OP attached is based on the Tarsh in Flames material and is definitely not canonical and has already been contradicted by Chaosium publications.

A little nomenclature. We have the Theyalans - this is the big linguistic-cultural group that covers much of central and southern Genertela. They include the Esrolians, the Manirians (except the Ramali), much of Ralios, southern and eastern Fronela, the Pelorian hill country, Dragon Pass, etc. They speak related languages, all descended from Stormspeech. Orlanthi - these are Theyalans that have Orlanth as one of their main gods. Most Theyalans are Orlanthi, but in Peloria many Theyalans are now Lunars and not Orlanthi. The Heortlings. These are the Orlanthi peoples that originated in Heortland circa 1300. They are the old Sartarites and the Hendriki. Also called Heortlander or even just Sartarite. Tarshites. These are the people that settled northern Dragon Pass circa 1350 or so. They are the Tarshites, the Tarsh Exiles, and the Far Point and Alone tribes. Esrolians - these are the Theyalan people of Nochet. Ernalda is the main deity and they are matriarchal. Sometimes considered Orlanthi, sometimes not.

Here is the current working map of the tribes of Sartar circa 1625-1626:

Lots of little tweaks here and there. Lemme give a few clips from the forthcoming Sartar Homeland book: ALONE Alone was built in 1583 by Prince Terasarin as a refuge for those Tarshite Exiles clans who fled after the Battle of Grizzly Peak. It is well-fortified with the characteristic stone walls of the other Sartarite cities, and prominent temples to Orlanth Rex, Uleria, Ernalda, and Maran Gor. Alone is the market, political, and religious center for a confederation of the Amad, Bachad, and Tres tribes. Alone has several inns, including Geo’s Alone Inn. A dragonewt road runs through Alone; as a result, dragonewts occasionally visit. However, the city never became a major trade route, and, as its name suggests, was largely isolated from the rest of Sartar. There are about 1000 permanent residents, but winter drives many to seek shelter within the walls of the city, After the conquest of Sartar, Alone surrendered to the Red Emperor but was it considered too poor and too strategically irrelevant to warrant a garrison and was largely ignored by the Lunar Provincial Government. In 1611, the city offered a token submission to Harvar Ironfist of Alda-Chur, but was largely left alone. As a result, the city became a refuge for exiles and rebels from the Righteous Wind Rebellion and Starbrow’s Rebellion. It has declined under the Lunar Occupation, and now has many abandoned buildings. AMAD The smallest and poorest tribe in Sartar, the Amad are rugged frontiersmen whose settlements are in the shadows of Dagori Inkarth. They are a New Sartar tribe, having settled this area after being exiled from Tarsh in the wake of the Battle of Grizzly Peak in 1582. They originally came from what is now the Bush Range. Their farms are often raided by trolls from the Indigo Mountains or the Vale of Flowers, and as a result the Yelmalio cult is popular for its darkness-fighting abilities. A member of the Alone city ring, the Amad are remote and isolated even by the standards of the Alone tribes. Tribal Center: Amadhall City: Alone Population 2000 Clans: Three Main Tribal Deities: Orlanth, Ernalda. Minor Cults: Yelmalio, Maran Gor. Language: Tarshite BACHAD The leading tribe of the Alone city ring, the Bachad are one of the New Sartar tribes, having settled this area after being exiled from Tarsh following the Battle of Grizzly Peak in 1582. They originally came from what is now the Bush Range. They control much of the good agricultural land in the Hidden Valley, raising barley and cattle. Tribal Center: Alone City: Alone Population: 3000 Clans: Three Main Tribal Deities: Orlanth, Ernalda. Minor Cults: Humakt, Maran Gor. Language: Tarshite TRES A member of the Alone city ring, the Tres are one of the smallest and poorest tribes in Sartar. They settled this area after being exiled from Tarsh following the Battle of Grizzly Peak in 1582. They were originally made up of dissidents from the Koffer Hills and the Bush Range. The Tres are mostly pastoralists, herding sheep in the Sheep of Luck Hills. Tribal Center: Alone City: Alone Population: 2500 Clans: three Main Tribal Deities: Orlanth, Ernalda. Minor Cults: Chalk Man, Maran Gor Language: Tarshite

And who can forget this depiction of Prince Argrath from the RuneQuest Companion. Looks very German-Celt to me.

The Orlanthi were originally presented as being very "Ancient World".

There are foundational texts for Glorantha. People don't have to use them, but it is encouraged. However, these foundational documents are just that - foundations. They shouldn't be considered straight-jackets. There are also texts we don't consider to be particularly relevant at all and we know are contradicted by foundational texts or will be contradicted in future texts, or that are so off that we fear reading them might cause an immediate -1D6% loss to your relevant Grok Glorantha skill or lose 1d3 points of POW.

Please create a separate thread for this.

Work continues on it (I should know as I have weekly meetings with status reports from the team). But we are making no announcements until we are authorised to do so.