metcalph

A few mad natterings. I think that as a result of chaos's easy entrance (all the Heroes who could have stopped it are dead or missing), desperate magicians transformed Peloria into six hells to halt its spread. At the topmost level is the Golden Empire where Ralzakark rules - a combination of Midsomar and Lyendell. Beneath it somewhere is a land where the Osliris pure sludge and flows directly into a massive gorp. At the very bottom, Peloria is crumbling into the Void starting with the river bottoms and expanding outwards. People can travel from one hell to another by chaotic and or magics. Simply being killed sends you into the hell beneath you - Ralzakark claims have abolished Death. At the upper levels, the Great Ice surrounds the important places because Ralzakark and others don't want uncontrolled chaotic hordes entering their lands. Time has been broken. People currently think it is 1725 or thereabouts (KoS 1st edition in joke). The Red Moon is extremely weak - the full moon phases is annullar and faces the earth at various angles rather than one side

As a coda, my theory about the leadup Battle of Moonfall is this. Argrath can't even think of defeating Wakboth/Ralzakark and the Monster Empire in an unfair fight. So he goes after the Red Moon who is providing protection to the many distressed multitudes in Peloria. That's why the list of enemies in King of Sartar are Lunars rather than Wakboth and the Unholy Trio that _Argrath and the Devil_ suggests.

I really don't like the idea that the Monster Empire is falling victim to the same flaws that befell the Empire of Light. Wakboth or Ralzakark or what-have-you shouldn't become Emperor just because the Lunars are afraid of losing. The Lunars have been out of power since the Lightbringer's Quest. Sheng Seleris has been and gone. Anybody who was anybody in the Lunar Empire is a historical footnote in the time of the Monster Empire. It's like blaming Metternich for 20th Century Europe. A simpler explanation might be the destruction caused by the Hero Wars (we already have a Flood, Smoke Storms, Windstop and Great Ice) simply allowed Chaos to step back in in a big way. The Lunars at this time aren't actively inviting Chaos in or fighting alongside it; they are using their mysteries to live with the active presence of Chaos in their world. Fallout: Peloria so to speak.

I think Nysalor's Empire was dangerous not for what it taught but a side-effect of those teachings. Simply put, Nysalor could break the Cosmic Compromise (Cf the Sunstop and the Battle of Night and Day). What happens when you break the Compromise? The Cosmos cracks and Chaos seeps in. It doesn't matter whether he or his followers did it for good purposes or bad, all that matters is that it was done and would continue to be done for as long as his Empire existed. Where he and his worshippers aware that they were causing Chaos? Yes, but they didn't *fear* Chaos. They knew that it was neither evil or inimical. They probably had rules to ameliorate any disturbances that they caused. But no matter what they did, it wouldn't have satisfied Arkat.

My own modest defense of the Crimson Bat (I've made this point before). It is not devouring souls but illuminating them. Its Glowspot is no chaotic feature but results from its ongoing illumination of souls. That the illuminates can't be contacted afterwards only demonstrates how thorough their illumination was. That nobody believes this is a sign of insufficient faith in the mercy of the Red Goddess.

Slavery isn't chaotic although it is unpleasant. Ompalam's evil is "degenerative administration, of evil centralization" as per the prosopedia. Making deals with chaotics is not itself a chaotic activity. The Uz tolerate Cave Trolls in their society despite the presence of Zorak Zoran (and I seen nary a suggestion from anyone that the cave trolls are hunted down). The Sartarites dealt amiably with werewolves once. Gloranthan give protection worship to Malia all the time. Hence in my view making an alliance with the Broos is not something that would trigger a storm bully's chaosense although if somebody told him about it, he would probably beat the deal-maker up or worse (not that they ever need an excuse to). Storm Bullies are not part of Praxian tribal society. IMO they are a fringe counter-culture like the Hells Angels or the Mongrel Mob. They exist as warbands running around looking for chaos all the time. Within the tribe, there are young punks who worship Storm Bull. They are barely tolerated (even the Waha Khans find them a source of trouble they can do without) with the expectation to one day grow up or move out. Waha hates Chaos as much as Orlanth or other normal gods. But look at what the Guide says about Praxian virtue (below the bit about honesty not expected towards outsiders(. A Praxian has to hate chaos and must not show mercy or compassion. But that does not preclude making an alliance with them as there have been plenty of examples in RW History. I'm not saying face-to-face meetings with a Broo is fine and dandy and there are probably tribal taboos that prevent the Kahns from doing so. But even traditional chaos-hating Khans could see an advantage in hiring broos - not against people of his tribe, probably not against other tribes but against outsiders?

I think Hyalor is about capturing wild horses rather than breeding and riding them. Command Horse seems to me a rather pointless spell otherwise.

The technique was originally used by non-Yelmalions and Daxdarius springs to mind (he was explicitly cited as a source in some Gregly writings but thinking on that may have changed). Others prefer fighting with shorter spears because the Yelmalion technique emphasizes a stoic rather than heroic frame of mine. So it's really just a trade secret known by the Sun Dome Temples rather than a cult secret. Sure you could copy them but there's more satisfying ways to win battles.

Each sacred time.

Possible outline of Godunya's cult magic (my thoughts only) The worshipper has a chance of becoming illuminated equal to the number of runepoints acquired. Success allows access to True Dragon Magic. Most worshippers find this too slow and resort to a God Learner-era abuse. They can use the runepoints to cast an automatic sorcery spell (as per Gods of Glorantha). Originally this was regarded as very shameful but since the wars against Sheng Seleris, it has become rather common (purists will still turn their noses up). The downside is that such runepoints become soiled and no longer count for illumination purposes. I think knowledge of a spell is required beforehand to produce its effects (a change from the Gods of Glorantha rules) but unlike westerners, the Godunyan merely needs to have studied it.

It was on the basis of discussions about Daruda that I had with others many years ago and several books on how the Manchus ran their empire (they have parallel documents in some cases so that while the official chinese record describes an orthodox confician ceremony for example, the Manchu record about the same ceremony mentions a shamanic oath which would have caused a scandal if included in the official record). Daruda is still respected because the authorities find it easy to keep him out of sight. I think the Path of Immanent Mastery is really false magic these days (any true magic they had was lost in the Dragons Awakening Shudder).

Inferring a bit from wot Jeff has said (okay quite a lot then), I think most Emperor cults have been devoid of Dragon Powers since the God Learner invasion and only through the worship of Godunya are the worshippers able to access the draconic meaning. My hastily compiled thoughts (solely my interpretation and not based on anything Jeff has said) DARUDA: A Shamanic transformation cult. Deeply embarrassing to the Kralori Sages as it's Shamanism. While most Kralori have a single beast tyype, the Darudans pick and choose. METSYLA; Originally a cult for Dragonewts to immerse themselves humans and become enlightened as per Zhuangzhi's butterfly dream (the 'newts that chose this find it difficult to cope with the traditional way of dragons). Also used by humans to become dragonewts. Favourerd by spies and secret policemen. They have magic that resembles dragonewt magic but it's illusion magic rather than dragonewt magic. THALURZNI: Worshipped by alchemists and poisoners. VAYOBI: Perhaps a Humakt analogue. VASHANTI: Probably a variant of Lhankor Mhy except that his magics aren't about the acquisition of knowledge but rather the assessment of taxes and the like. The Web of Righteous Knowledge was interpretd by the God Learners as Arachne Solara's Web so there's probably some bollocks about how they revealed he was Lhankor Mhy after returning to earth after the Lightbringers Quest. All Emperor Cults (save for the non-Draconic ones) have Godunya as an associate and so to get anywhere within the Kralori government, one has to prove one's mastery of his wisdom. If the above cults represent governmental functions, Godunya represents the party functions. There's probably dissidents who are big in their Imperial Cult but have been snubbed by the Godunyan hierarchy. They spend their time trying to awaken the ways rather than the EWF nonsense that Godunya broguth back with him from Dragon Pass. I've been trying to work in Eunuchs as villainous enforcers somewhere in the above system but I'll leave it for now. As for Godunya's cult, I think the idea is that you have to sacrifice for rune points and only after becoming enlightened can you use it for Draconic Transformations. Gods of Glorantha had some schtick in which you could do sorcery with it but I think that is an abuse of Godunyan wisdom by those frustrated with their spiritual progress.

I don't see anything in Cults of Prax and subsequent sources that actually contradict Nomad Gods.

I think Cults of Terror p73 put it best (when talking of another cult) "though the local population will not cheer the student when he misses".

Short answer: Yes. TLDR answer: Yes.

A simple answer: Plentonius, interpreting the Gods Wall several thousand years after it was made, was misogynist and could not cope with a female daughter of Yelm. So Verithurusa had to become male. But I daresay people prefer more complex narratives.

No, Elmal had lost his fire powers as a result of being repeatedly defeated by Teller of Lies. All that remained was his immortal self. When people worshipped Elmal (and other related deities) in the Long Night, they worshipped Lightfore. The relationship between the Sun and Elmal was a major theological problem when the Sun returned at the Dawn and many peoples all over glorantha struggled for a solution for their god (Antirius, Kargzant, Halamalao etc). An answer was provided by the Dara Happans who said that the Sun was Yelm. This caused a lot of problems as the Elmali struggled to cope. Nysalor's solution (that Elmal was really Daysenervus, a manifesteation of Yelm) proved unsatisfactory to the Orlanthi especially when it was used to persecute them. It was a blessed relief when Arkat drove Nysalorans away. So what happens if you were to worship the Sun instead of Lightfore? I'm sure the Dawn Age Orlanthi must have tried this at some stage. There's reference in the literature to the Sun Disk (best known as Ehilm but he may also be known as Ersonmoda). When people worship it, it just seems to be a fire in the Sky and you can get some fire magics from it (much like Liege Light of the Young Elementals). But because it is so far away, the fire magics are rather weak compared to the Lowfires and the Orlanthi would have just given up on it after a few years. The Elmali and other Lightfore worshippers would have not found the worship of Ehilm useful because they couldn't use the fire powers that it provided. It may be present in Sun Dome temples as a subservient deity as some solar powers will still be useful to have without having to go to those snotty Yelmic Yassholes. My thinking only FWIW.

There's a plan and some details of the New Lunar Temple in four pages of the Sartar Companion (which is now OOP). The plan was ordered in 1580 ST. The site identified in 1612 ST. It was stalled due to Starbrow's revolt and the death of its general. The temple reconstruction restarted in 1617 ST with the arrival of Tatius the Bright. As of 1619 ST, most of the temples are still being constructed. The temple is in the shape of a hollow circle with ten gates on the outer ring. The gates are carved in the image of Yara Aranis. At the centre of a temple is an altar, called Sedenya's footstool. Surrounding this are ten temples to various lunar goddesses and Yelm. There are other temples surrounding the reaching moon to the Celestial Gods. During its construction, it has a population of 5000 (much of this is forced labour from the Dundealos) and swell even more with slaves from Heortland. There are about three slaves to every free builder. There are about 200 magicians from the Lunar Field School of Magic present. More will arrive in 1620 ST from the Heartlands. Security is provided by the University Guards who worship Yanafal Tarnils.

Delecti is an incarnation of Nontraya, which has been said to be another name for Vivamort (Cults of Terror mentions Delecti as a hero-priest of Vivamort even though his undead transmigration . His mythology is quite different from that of Vivamort in Cults of Terror (and even the interlude in Lords of Terror) but I now think the Vivamort cult writeup reflects the (God Learner) understanding of his origins while the Nontrayan mythology reflects the Orlanthi experiences of him in the Great Darkness with his mysterious origin and all that. (he came from nowhere, he did awful stuff, he was driven off). There's another Vampire God in the Eastern Isles and Fonrit's may (I stress *may*) be known as Vovisibor. I don't think there is an essential difference between vampires of various regions (except trivia bits like the classic vampires changing into a wolf or bat while the Daughters of Darkness don't). The way to become a Vampire was discovered many times in the Gods War and while there are many different methods of becoming a vampire (Western Vampires are probably grounded in the Vanus Credo, a twisted version of Malkioni religion while Dragon Pass Vampires might sacrifice their souls to Nontraya and Delecti), the end state is the same.

Not every Praxian is an intiate of Waha or Eiritha - some worship other gods with a more... pragmatic view. These could be safely used by the khans as intermediaries without offending religious taboos. They won't be saying anything as open as "you think you could get in touch with the broos" but more like "I hope we'll not be fighting downwind of any broos". DAKA FAL: Hates all gods and is an associate of Thed. Now the two have largely seperate sets of ancestors but there is a potential for a common ancestor for any Broo and Praxian (granted, they would be usually be evil or malign to the one side). They could be the basis for safe communication over a distance. HUMAKT: is neutral to a lot of chaotic gods including Thed. A Humakti Broo would be rather rare in the wastes but they could exist and the Humakti might know where to find them. A possible scenario: an initiate in trouble for a lackadaisical attitude to the laws of Armed Conflict might be sent to find a Humakti Broo and challenge him to a duel to bring home its importance. A similar argument exists for Scorpionmen. SEVEN MOTHERS: Enlightened attitude to Chaos. 'Nuff Said. SUNSET SOCIETY: Secret and Evil. Who knows what they think about Chaos? What about the Storm Bullies? The worshippers of Storm Bull are not part of normal Praxian society and largely form boisterous brotherhoods that do their own thing. The Praxians might know where they are and give warning to the Broos about their location in return for being left alone etc.

RQ3 was written to be non-gloranthan, therefore arguing from its rules in many cases will lead you astray. We never got an RQ3 Vivamort cult and so really have no clear idea how it would have worked. In any case, Vampires are chaotic because they have no souls rather than what they do. There are suggestions of non-Vivamort vampires but again there's been no clear idea of how they work.

My theory on why the Telmori are chaotic. Nysalor taught them how to change at will through breaking the Cosmic Compromise in a specific way (he has form as can be seen at the Battle of Night and Day). But breaking the Compromise causes chaos. Ergo by changing at will (and later changing without will), the Telmori repeatedly break the Compromise and are chaotic.

Depends on what you mean by twisted version, doesn't it? If you mean that once in a while, a scorpionfolk arises that looks like the victim and even acts like it on occasions, that's something I'm happy with. If you mean that the new scorpionfolk is the old victim twisted by chaos, then for me that's a step too far. It means that Bagog somehow has the ability to come between a victim and their god and damn the victim irrevoacably. If Bagog was one of the Great Old Ones on the scale of Hastur or Yog-Shoggoth, that might be believable but she's not. She's a mere two-bit demon and one of the thicker ones to boot.

Cults of Terror is rather ambiguous as to whether the devoured victim is the same person as the reborn scorpionfolk. There's some passages therein that could be construed as the answer being yes but the actual ritual itself suggests no. Lords of Terror enthusiastically rewrote the cult so that the answer was emphatically yes but there are serious philosophical issues about this (best exemplified in K'rana) that lead me to believe that the answer should have been no. IMO the scorpionfolk acquires knowledges, skills, possibly some battle magic (depends on what El Jefe thinks) and some other memories when they ritually devour someone but they do not acquire the victim's core self. At best, they are like the Alzabo, the gene wolf from the Sword of the Lictor series (itself based on some extravagant claims made in the 60s about flatworms and mRNA). An intelligent scorpionfolk could try and use the memories to pretend to be the devoured victim but personality-wise they are quite different. So the devoured's INT, POW and CHA are lost. All that is left is some chaotically acquired memories.

I think comparisons with the Orlanthi are misleading because the Pure Horse People are Yelmic. Authority and Power should flow from the above and not be rooted in some mandate from the masses vested in the Feathered Horse Queen. At the very least, the King will appoint male relatives as Princes to oversee the far flung regions of his tribe. Rather than copy from the Dara Happans, he would have Prince Pole Star, Prince Evening Star etc.