metcalph

Your original statement was "In HeroQuest, at least, the worship of Pavis grants no magic". Do you concede that was wrong?

Pavis uses the Man Rune Affinity (Pavis: Gateway to Adventure p363) which would be rune magic in RQG.

Don't know where that's from. Because their memories of the period is viewed through a Vingkotling lens (just like Troy is viewed through a Mycenaean lens) The mythical maps say otherwise.

But their mythology is still a fusion of Malkioni and Orlanthi myths. In addition Zzabur himself knows Ehilm by that name.

Places an awful lot of trust in initiates to copy out the grimoires accurately as well require an uncharacteristic amount of patience by the priests to wait as the tome is being copied. I think they just devour first without making copies for others as that fits better with the ethos of their god.

It's a thing among the Hrestoli to experience Joy AFAIK. Which has nothing to do with my original point that basing the Trader Princes philosophy upon Castelain is misplaced. Castelain is an explorer, a Marco Polo seeking fabulous lands of riches; what Castelain is not is a Thinker. Malkioni philosophy is not based on heroic deeds of derring- do but abstract enquiries. Insofar as the Trader Princes are henotheists, it's something they've brought with them from Safelster and isn't anything thought up by Castelain. As for the wizards being largely foreigners, I stand by that. The society of the Trader Princes is not suited to producing wizards in large numbers as it doesn't have any large cities. Thus if the Trader Princes want sorcerous dominance over the local Orlanthi, they are likely to consider hiring foreign sorcerors, such as the Arkati (from Safelster or Arkat's Hold), Zzaburi (from God Forgot), Rokari (from Seshnela), Lhankorings (from Nochet) or even Ramalians. Simply relying on the local talent won't get them very far.

The Enerali were originally Malkioni having been enslaved by the Mostali before their liberation by the Vingkotlings in the Storm Age. Now you might argue that there was some point in which Ehilm was unknown to the Malkioni of the Land of Logic (Early Golden Age perhaps). I consider that immaterial because IMO the Malkioni had long considered Ehil to be the Sun in the Storm Age.

When yer king of france, you've got better things to do then go around all day remembering your bloody number!

Castelain works fine as a trading hero of Issaries without wizards having to use him as a basis for sorcery. The Trader Princes would be happy with hired wizards who understand and appreciate gold rather than wizardsw who claim to be on their side and repeat jargon they can't understand.

I daresay they would worship Issaries and Castelain. Particularly adventurous types among them would also worship Orlanth but that's not their main goia. Ehilm is a Malkioni deity. Thus you can't use his worship to argue that the people of Helby are not Safelstrans. Even in the history maps, Helby manages to be part of: The Dark Empire The New Dangim Alliance The Estali. Which makes them pretty Safelstran to me. Likewise in the population tables (Guide p375) Helby is listed under Safelstrans as opposed to the Orlanthi of Lankst or Delela.

I doubt that Treack would be able to provide anything like that in RQG nowadays. He's a renegade, not a god.

A small note about the death of the gods passage. The passage is only a single paragprah appended onto the end of another text in a different font (1st edition KOS was quite different,, 2nd edition is only in italics). This may be a case of a orphan paragraph being attached to a text which may not have originally had it.

I just treat the Sartarite Settlers, the Riverfolk and the Old Pavisites as clans.

It came to me many years ago wondering if Shargash was so important, why wasn't he mentioned in Cults of Prax? I qualify the theory somewhat these days by making Shargash the equivalent of Amastan, the fire spirit caught by Zorak Zoran and that Shargash has his own dark shadow, through which he can obtain darkness magics. So really Shargash and Zorak Zoran have become Cosmic Twins of Fire and Darkness, worshipped throughout glorantha by many people unaware of their true nature.

Past ideas I have had: Vashanti is Lhankor Mhy Sheng Seleris and Argrath heroquested back to the Nights of Horrors to kill the Red Emperor and stuff up the Lunar Empire. Shargash is Zorak Zoran. GanEstoro is Argan Argar. Ompalam is Pamalt. Xemela is Chalana Arroy.

Rune Lords of Orlanth.

Cult business should be reserved for serving the Gods rather than the Clan. If the Priest asked you to deal with someone who had profaned the temple and you didn't get paid for it then it would be cult business.

Given a gift that someone has given you to the temple can be considered a snub. The best way to deal with it would be to pay a tithe on its value rather than the object itself.

Yeah so? The Aeolians order their gods differently from the standard Orlanthi but they are still the same Gods. It says of the Aeolians, "The free and talar castes use Rune and spirit magic; the wizard caste uses sorcery". Ergo they are not different gods and there is no sorcerous Orlanth etc. Now I am getting rather tired of people trying to pick nits in what I said instead of applying themselves to answering the original poster's question. If you disagree then please put up your own theory of how the Aeolians should be like instead of tearing apart mine..

Not described as a God of Sorcery. If anything, a Carmanian Satrap has encouraged its worship to encourage "courage and battle skills among his hazars" Guide p324

I refer you to the RQG rules p384 It is not true that sorcery is completely self-centered given that a major RW inspiration is Greek Neo-platonism which deals with mental unity with the One Mind.. Given that Lhankor Mhy already has an existing pathway to achieve the source of their magic, it seems fairly obvious to me that hiis way would be the route of choice for the Aeolian Wizards as opposed to Orlanth, who does not have such a pathway. Likewise given that Lhankor is the Advisor and Orlanth is the King of Gods, one would expect Orlanth to be worshipped by the Noble Caste rather than the Wizards.

Orlanth is not a God of Wizards thou, isn't he? Attempts to make him into one seem to distort Orlanth far more than is plausible. Even though Lhankor Mhy is lesser, he still has a direct line to the Invisible God which Orlanth does not.

Would Lhankhor Mhy being the main god of the Aeolian Wizard caste be agreeable? Based on what I have seen of the sorcery rules and the new sorcery thinking, I very much doubt that sorceror could organize a sorcery spell as a drop-in replacement for a God. Insofar as the Aeolian sorcerors led the rits and ceremonies for the community, the rites and ceremonies IMO are not to any specific god (such as the worship of Orlanth as that's officiated by their Rune Lords) but what RQ3 would have called a Worship Invisible God couched in Orlanthi mythology such as the Ritual of the Net. The attendents give up their magic points for their sorcerors to spend as the blessings of Time.

On the question of whether the Trader Princes have caste, one should remember they are Safelstrans with their own marriage customs (Belemor and Ulemor). A way to play this would be to say that only those who have a proven descent through Belemor marriages from another Trader Prince can themselves become a Trader Prince. Everybody else cannot inherit Castelain's good name and so would be ineligible to preside over his worship ceremonies.

I think the Commoners do not worship at the Aeolian temples. Instead they worship the Gods through their God Talkers. They are generally too poor to have etablished Rune Lords and Rune Priests. The Aeolian Warrior-Aristocracy do worship at the Temples. They have Rune Lords as officers of the Temple who preside over the worship(which I realize weakens cults that have no Rune Lords) I think the Aeolian Wizards are likely to be worshippers of Lhankor Mhy as representatives of the Invisible God as opposed to Makan or Irensavel (They would be more sorcerous than your average Lhankoring bumpkin and think nothing of studying with the God Forgotten for wisdom). The Wizards would be attached to Shrines of Lhankor Mhy within the Aeolian Temples which some unsual elements (the Shrines are isolated from the temple with some Malkioni religious imagery). I don't think the Wizards preside over the Orlanthi services - Lhankor Mhy is distinct from Orlanth. Instead Lhankor is the emanation of the Invisible God that is closest to his thoughts even though Orlanth is the greatest emanation. So while the Orlanthi lead, the Lhankoring Wizards advise with the wisdom of the Invisible God.