metcalph

The Fonritans are not slaves because of their masters. They have cruel masters and worship cruel gods because the universe is a cruel place and slavery the best way to live. That's why previous attempts to free Fonrit (the God Learners had a good try) did not last very long. The Fonritans are well aware of the concept of freedom and associate it with the deranged murderers of Jotoku.

Try as I like, I can't ever imagine perfume making and falcon taming to be sources of political power and I don't think it productive to rehabilitate subpar material. More importantly, I note that the Guide cuts the supposed influence of these gods down significantly.

But those specialized deities are not central to their worshippers existence. It's like saying that Minlister is one of the lightbringers.

Comments: You should really list the source by each name or at least provide a list of references. I wouldn't say Ompalam was a God Learner variant. He has been worshipped in Fonrit since the Storm Age. A Vadeli variant might be more accurate. I had serious reservations about the Fonritan material in Revealed Mythologies and portraying the Glorious Ones as a supernumerated Necklace of Pamalt, the whole thing just falls down. For example, since when are perfume making and falcon training core parts of Fonritan civilization that requires a specialized deity to represent? Likewise many of the names are just too long. God's names should be snappy two or three syllable names rather than four or five syllable names than convey little more than one's commitment to linguistic verisimilitude. Some of the material you have is simply duplicating each other. If you are using Varama, you shouldn't also list Fidai'is as both are meant to be the Fonritan Sun God (Teneorpasas is the hero who was chosen to incarnate Solar powers, while Ehilm is another name for the Sun as per Guide p553). Yelm (under whatever name) is not worshipped in Fonrit, only Yelmalio is. The distinction between Gods and Spirits should be junked as it was largely a product of the Hero Wars RPG. The Fonritans worship Gods who provide Rune Magic. Some Gods may provide spirits instead (like Telmor or Kolat) but they are still Gods. Why are Annilla and Serartamal listed as separate gods? Why is the Siwal sisterhood so big on birth control magic? Can't women aspire to something more?

The Glorantha Sourcebook is merely repeating something that Greg's written about the Jrusteli for quite some time. Something that's important to understand is that the average Malkioni doesn't believe in the Invisible God - they believe the Wizards. The wizards practice sorcery but what the others practice is dependent on what the Wizards permit. Thus the Seshnelan warriors worship thinly disguised Hsunchen cults and so forth. So long as the Wizards practice the right sorcery and subscribe to the right ideas, all is well in the world. Thus the Jrusteli were quite happy with the worship of Wachaza among their warriors and Diros among their sailors. It is only when the Arkati combined sorcery with the active worship of big gods that the Jrusteli really became upset.

There's two options 1) Play the Reds as being a normal human race but with a fighting bent. 2) Play the Reds as a race of demigods, (like a mistress race troll) who have honed their skills all the time they've been missing (since the Great Darkness). Personally I think the Reds are mostly of tyoe 2 but there are new reds (type 1) who have been born since the Opening. Basic magic would be spirit magic and they might have the opportunity of using their affinities for rune magic (they wouldn't worship Gods unless it were to debase them in secret rites). They would also know sorcery but this will manifest on the equipment they use (ie their Boon of Kargan Tor is how much?!?). They will not cast sorcery directly in combat as this goes against their caste.

Ompalam may be a bigger god than Garangordos but his interest in providing magic is likely to be less. The other gods make people worship Omapalm without compensation because both the gods and worshippers are his slaves. I think the Masarin are worshippers of Garangordos, wielding Omapalm's magic for the good (don't laugh) of the community. Tentacule is, I think, the ideal servant. Other gods in the same vein would be Varama (like Yelmalio but with a lot more geases).

A tactic that has not been mentioned when seeing who the best warriors are has been to adopt disguises. Patroclus wore Archilles armour during the Trojan War

I think it more likely that the God Learners who summoned Tanian lied about how they did it because Tanian involves the Dragonewt Rune rather than Fire and Water.

My own opinion is that the mythical ancestors of the Ducks were part of the Seabirds Army that sided with Sshorg after the drowning of Duravan and in the wake of that God, they invaded southern genertela and were generally wiped out. Their alliance with dastardly Sshorg generally explains their cantankerous and demeanor in the Modern Age as oposed to their noble and kindhearted brethern in the Eastern Isles. The Durulz ignore this because to do otherwise would mean accepting in their hearts that they are despicable as everybody says they are. At Sevid, Orlanth fought the Bird-headed tribe (Arcane Lore p90). This I believe are the Ducks. Now Sevid is in what is now Maniria and the Ducks remained there for the most part in the Dawn and Imperial Ages. Sometime in the Imperial Age, a tribe or clan or ducks was either invited to or kidnapped by the EWF and sent to live in the vicinity of the Stitched Zoo where they aided Delecti in his research. The ducks survived the destruction of the EWF because their base nature meant they willingly took bribes from the Dragonewts and the Blue Moon assassins to betray their masters. Their untrustworthy nature also meant that they warned some important people of the EWF what was going to happen - only Delecti listed to them and survived. That is why Delecti has not exterminated the Ducks.

There's some that didn't accept the offer and lived close to Dorastor and fought for Nysalor (Telmoria) so that doesn't quite work

People complaining about shapeshifting magic sucking miss the point methinks. Why do you think the Telmori sold their souls to Gbaji?

I have seen two different answers. One is from Gods of Glorantha and speaks of many races joined to "protest their existence" (Cults Book p12). The only real other evidence for non-humans joining the cut of silence is the practice of the Feofaxia elves in Maslo (Guide p546). The other is an unpublished idea which may or may not be true. It had something to do with the Knowledge Assassins taking a vow of silence to prevent dissemination of the Forbidden Secret. Some time later, humans not knowing the cause of the practice though them to be holy men and copied their silence. I assume they dig up and attune God Learner artifacts or read fragments of the pages of now-forbidden verses of the Abiding Book. It's not just humans that have been studying this lore, the Vadeli, the Malasp and the Big Three have "God Learners" among their ranks. Judging from the experience of Argrath in the Guide (Sunken Temples p502), the Jrustelans are close to or have discovered the secret of practical God-Learning and will definitely know it after Harrek's visit.

On the subject of the llumination of the God Learners, there is this passage from Hero Wars; Glorantha which in itself is a revised version of a passage in Dorastor: Land of Doom. Peloria, Kralorela and the Eastern Isles are well-known. Ralios is Arkat and Vralos is the Cult of Silence. So what's in Jrustela? That said, HeroQuest: Glorantha is using Illumination in the widest sense of acquisition of the Infinity Rune (which also captures Draconic Wisdom) rather than the more narrow sense of a mystical awareness that is derived from the teachings of Nysalor. How the God Learners were illuminated or how the current practice of Illumination in Jrustela is practiced is really a subject for another post. Personally I think the Illuminated God Learners weren't aware they were illuminated. They just had magic by which they could do the impossible, like make the water burn and because of this, they earned the epithet of "most learned and least wise"

There's no further published detail as far as I known. It's mentioned as far back as Cults of Prax:

Hahrat Blowhard is a troll hero of the Yolp Mountains who worshipped Orlanth. There are troll worshippers of the Red Moon. The trolls of Ignorance worship many human Cults (which for Ignorance isn't saying much) The trolls of Ralios worship Arkat. The Shadow landers would worship some Esrolian Cults as well as Caladra, I think.

Tanian has a manifestation in the Puzzle Canal and can be worshipped in Sartar as part of the Eleven Lights.(a group of magicians within the Sartar Magical Union).

There are no cult restrictions on elemental use for most cults. Orlanth can wear any sort of elemental metal because he kicked their arses during the Gods War. The Seven Mothers can wear any sort of elemental metal because We Are All Us even if they are not illuminated and so on. Dara Happans quite happily use bronze even though that's a Storm Metal. Illumination is not a requirement for the armour you suggest.

I'm still not seeing what you re getting at. Illuminates have not had any special powers in magical construction. Why would you expect it to be different if it was constructed by an illuminate and not say, a master dwarf smith?

I don't see why the maker has to be illuminated. Sorcerors can enchant metals.

I was talking about the Glorantha forum seeing as we're getting into speculation about deep history and myth. I've proposed something of the sort in the past. I'm not sure how compatible it is with the current thinking.

This really belongs on the other group but I'll answer it: Ompalam's crime is not slavery but That's he associated with slavery is incidental - he have easily been easily an evil bureaucrat. A longer story would be Ompalam was identified by the Vadeli and as a result embodies their values.. He is associated with Chaos because the Vadeli had a headsup on what was going to happen to glorantha. Ikadz is trickier because he has been described in two different ways. 1) Ikadz is chaotic because he likes inflicting pain. This is the version given in the Guide "He delights in the agony of others, and their prolonged torment makes him ecstatic." Guide p703 2) Ikadz inflicts pain to purge others of their guilt. This is the version given in the Glorantha Sourcebook ."Ikadz the Torturer [...] and in some religions receives the souls of misdoers and cleanses them before they can join the other dead." GB p78 The second version could be reconciled with the first by having the Gods allow Ikadz to punish the souls of the wicked, - in other words, Ikadz does not care about the state of the souls that he tortures, the Gods who permit the torture do. This is supported "he cuts and burns the evil out of people so that they follow the ways of Ompalam." Guide p47 So the gist is that Ikadz is chaotic because he revels in causing pain. He doesn't care about whether the person he tortures is good or bad or whether they will repent of their error or confess or whatever. Such considerations are not part of the God. Others tolerate the existence of Ikadz and control the extent of pain that he and his cultists cause for their own purposes.

You are creating petty exemptions from the original act in order to claim it's not cannibalism. Nobody would accept this type of reasoning for rape so I find it unpersuasive.

I don't see how Cannibalism can be chaotic when many societies that practice it (Trolls, Praxian consumption of herd men, Newtling Tails. etc) are not. The only statement for cannibalism being chaotic and causing Ogres (aka the Wendigo theory) comes from an in-gloranthan dialogue on Shadows on the Borderlands. The discussion of how Ogres are made in the Red Cow clan in the Coming Storm makes no mention of this.