metcalph

Nope. HQG references are valid for the discussion of the bigger picture of Lhankor Mhy. An in-depth discussion would be out of place but merely referencing it is perfectly fine as it is an official chaosium publication. The material in the Sorcery section says differently which I have amply quoted from. You can only claim tere is no suggestion by pretending that that the whole section is optional when it comes to worshipping Lhankor Mhy., which is rather bizarre

I didn't say all runequest sources, I said all sources and stand by it, My interpretation is consistent with the description of the Cult in RQG.

Stasis is not associated with sorcery - Law is. Lhankor Mhy is given stasis rather than Law in RQGas a game design for keeping things simple (for the same reason you can't get a master rune). Since thew writeup of Lhankor Mhy in RQG is a shortform writeup rather than a full one, it's dubious to go around saying that it is the only permissable interpretation of Lhankor Mhy and that other writeups of Lhankor Mhy should not to be considered.

Do you consider the Guide a RuneQuest product? Lhankor Mhy is given the Law Rune there, which RQG p50 states is associated with sorcery. The interpretation of Lhankor Mhy that I've provided is consistent with all sources (and game systems) and makes better sense than the interpretation of Lhankor Mhy as the God of Optional Sorcery (which makes as much sense to me as arguing that for the Lunars, Illumination is optional).

There's is a background to Lhankor Mhy that is far more than just what appears in the RQG rules.

Gloranthically Lhankor Mhy has the Law Rune which is associated with sorcery (I'm aware that RQG gives him the stasis rune but that's an artifact of the game system).. In the HeroQuest: Glorantha, his sorcerous nature is even more explicit than in RQG. As to whether Lhankor's sorcery is optional, I would say that knowing sorcery is a cult ideal that is to be expected of every Lhankoring. But Dragon pass and the Wastelands are pretty hazardous places and to be honest, Lhankoring Sorcery is geared for truth seeking rather magical power and so a Lhankoring sorceror is about as useless as an adventurer. That's why so many learn Spirit and Rune Magics. Such behaviour is acceptable but it is regrettable in that it falls short of the ideal. A Lhankoring seeking to become a Rune master IMO would be obliged in demonstrating some faculty with sorcery. He doesn't have to be very good at it or even somewhat competent - all he needs to do is to be able to cast a sorcery spell, which is why it's not a requirement in the RQG cult writeups.. In more civilized place, the standards would be higher ("oh, he's still casting spirit magics? What a buffoon he is!") but the sages of Dragon Pass and Lhankor Mhy don't have that luxury.

A Lhankoring that goes through life without knowing sorcery is akin to a College graduate going through life Fat, Drunk and Stupid. Their God's magic is sorcery, their God's father was Mostal, they are exposed to sorcery as part of their initiation. That a starting Lhankoring finds life easier if he starts off with spirit magic is hardly a refutation of Lhankor Mhy being a Sorcery God.

Upon initiation into the cult, the initiate is taught to master the Truth Rune and the technique of Command. Additional Runes and techniques can later be learned if an appropriate book can be found or if a teacher can be located and persuaded. Only cult initiates are ever taught sorcery. RQG p389 Clearly learning the rune techniques are part of the Syllabus and since the acquisition of rune techniques requires Henosis To master a new Rune or technique, the sorcerer must achieve intellectual union with the source of their magic (be it the Invisible God, the One, the Great Mind, Logic, or whatever the sorcerer’s philosophy holds to be the case). RQG p384 I think the argument that Lhankorings are not sorcerors to be rather weak.

Do you have a problem with there being two Sword Sages in New Pavis? I'm far from interested in describing a detail exegesis of what Sword Sage meant at some distant time in the past just that a) we have a fairly good idea what sword sage means now b) the powers that be at chaosium have explicitly adopted a policy of backwards compatibility with RQ2 sources. For them there's no fussing about original meaning of the text - Sword Sages have evolved to current definition and all sword sages in the past should be considered real sword sages as opposed to not-really sworcery-using lhankor mhy sages or whatever you think they are supposed to be. Yes there's a disparity with Eparikondos but it's not an insurmountable or even unfeasible one. Besides nobdoy ever accused the writers of RQ2 material of producing material that was well-thought out in every way. Nope. Knowledge is sorcery. Worshippers gain divine magics from him as a Friend of Orlanth, a Son of Yelm or one of the Seven Mothers but that's a crutch to the True Learning of Lhaknor's wisdom and a measure of how backward a particular worshipper is. I am unaware of anybody ever stating that the Sword Sages were a majority or even a large minority. You keep trotting out a variation of this line but refuse to go along with any actual numbers apart from a nod to GM approval which you can then look askance at,. Two Sword Sages in New Pavis? Plausible or not? A Sword Sage temple in Esrolia? Plausible or not? I've already said I don't think there are any in Jonstown or Boldhome. Plausible or not? I've already quoted from the Book of Heortling Mythology which has the tradition founded by a Hero in the Storm Age. In the Age of the Vingkotlings, this supposed hero of Lhankor Mhy only teaches physical combat ability and no magic? Nah, not buying it.

They are called the HeroQuest: Glorantha and RuneQuest: Glorantha rulebooks.

The relevant text is Instrumental in destroying the vampire kings of Tanisor were a band of deadly worshipers of Humakt. When they asked Arkat for aid he agreed, and began to campaign in Ralios. At this time he learned that he must obtain the XYZ, obtainable only to an initiate of Humakt. Arcane Lore p10 The Guide's similar text is: Instrumental in destroying the vampire kings of Tanisor were a band of deadly worshipers of Humakt. When they asked Arkat for aid he agreed, and began to campaign in Ralios. At this time he learned that he must use the secret powers of the Unbreakable Sword, obtainable only to an initiate of Humakt. Guide to Glorantha p156

No. Some spirits could effect a body transformation but it's not a normal attribute of animal spirits in general.

And the references for Sword Sage (Gloranthan rather than RQG) Hevduran was a scholar who became so outraged about the foes disturbing him that he finally took up weapons himself. He even wrote the first book about fighting techniques. Most Lhankor Mhy worshippers consider this subcult to be perverse and some sort of Orlanthi bastardization of their pure ideals, but when enemies come those same folks appreciate these individuals as defenders of the innermost shrines against invasive forces. Book of Heortling Mythology p179 Sylthi (small city [in Esrolia - PHM]): This city is home to the ancient Hevduran Dege temple of Lhankor Mhy, whose scholars are known for their dangerously aggressive pursuit of knowledge. Guide to Glorantha p258

All runemasters of Lhankor Mhy know and teach sorcery. They wouldn't be runemasters if they didn't. Except that I already did that the first time I mentioned him and the knowledgeable mention of him didn't actually discredit him. So why mention him again given that it didn't add anything. Alchemy derives from the Stasis Rune (RQG p14). Any :Lhankoring studying Alchemy would have learned the Stasis Rune technique.. Any Alchemical spells they would know would be based on the Stasis Rune. Hence a Lhankoring would have no problem is believing that Alchemy is sorcery.

"Master"? It's just a Runic Technique which takes a season of study and 1 point of POW. It's not as if it was a skill they had to learn to 90% before they are allowed to learn another. It's just a body of knowledge like any other - if a Lhankoring wants to learn astrology, he would get the Fire Rune technigque and so on. Given sorcerous characters start of with two techniques, learning an extra one is hardly the stuff of impossibility. Except that one is a Rune Lord (which is also called a Sword Sage and another is a Rune Lord-Priest. Ergo Two Sword Sages. Wow. Since I already mentioned him in the previous posting, I dunno what this knowledgeable mention is meant to achieve. Why not? Lhankor Mhy is explicitly a god of knowledge which is sorcery. Any Sage that deals with the knowledge of swordsmanshuip is going to be dealing with sorcery spells about swordsmanship. There's no such thing as a Lhankoring that doesn't learn sorcery. All Lhankorings learn sorcery to some extent - it is the magic of their God. Sorcery is something that you klnow.

Where's this from? It's not the what RQG p389 says, just that they are taught Truth and Command first. It does not state that to learn additional runes, they must seek a teacher outside the cult. Looking at the Sartar Companion, you have sages specializing in Alchemy and Draconic Lore. Did they learn the relevant runes from outside the cult? I don't think so. Yes. And? I've already said that Sword Sages don't mesh well with mainstream LM worship. Would there be a Sword Sage in New Pavis? P:TtDp58 suggests there are two and those figures look right even for 1625. I doubt that you could find one in Boldhome or Jonstown but you probably could find a school in Nochet. Rather that remark dismissively about it being normal or representative or slight any GM who gives the okay, I find it more constructive to say this is where the Sword Sages are - if you want to become one, you have to go there.

I don't think the Hsunchen in general have two-shaped natures - they think of themselves as animals in the form of men and it is difficult to change. That is why the Telmori accepted Nysalor's gift. Expressing their Beast Shape is not something Hsunchen can easily do in times of danger but something that is only attained through years of spiritual practice. The Hsunchen emulate their totems but it is rare for them to manifest them - that is what their shamans and best fighters do.

On the subject of Sword Sages, I think it most likely that Sword Sages have a repertoire of swordsmanship spells that can be learned from other sword sages (such as Eparikondos of New Pavis (although the description of him in Pavis: Threshold to Danger p79 makes him more interested in languages - perhaps he's actually a Word Sage?). So yes, they would know the weapon spells in the RQG rulebook and wouldn't have to scrouge from other sorcerors in the area. Since Lhankor Mhy's basic sorcery teaching is truth and command, there's plenty of room for study of the Rune of Conflict. Yes, it doesn't mesh well with the mainstream worship of Lhankor Mhy but thta is how Sword Sages were depicted since Storm Tribe: the Cults of Sartar.

The Gilgamesh image is already in the Fortunate Succession p25 where the legend describes it as Emperor Anirinelm crushing the Lion of Enestool

It also features in the Sazdorf Clan material of RQ2's Trollpak (soon to be reprinted).

Please do not respond to old posts telling people they are wrong. And have you compared the Slarges to the original Pelm-re? Revelaed Mythologies p45 describes them as having "large eyes, a gaping mouth, a long tail, and small, nearly useless arms" which is closer to a Tyrannosaur than a Slarge. So if the Pelm-re are related to Slarges, the Lascerdans can be to. Bolongo prevented their rise when he murdered the dragon Langamul.

Judging by Yatelo's appearance and powers, it seems that he's another name for Daga, the son of Yelm and Molanni, and the God of Famine.

Cults of Terror used the Cult Compatibility membership chart

Remember Yelmalio has many forms, one of which is Elmal.

I assume they are related to the Slarges in an attempt to make sense of the mythical events of the region.