metcalph

From the Guide sidebar p202 (highlight mine) The highlighted passage suggests the Loskalmi have traditionally shunned with spells that affect the material world like Create Wall of Flame. There will have been philosophical differences about where exactly the border lies but as a result of their struggle against the Kingdom of War, the Loskalmi have cast aside these inhibitions. At first this would be minor stuff like weather control spells to hinder the passage of the troops of the Kingdom of War but it will soon involve the use of spells that smite enemy troops (and walls). So far so good. What they are doing is ordinary sorcery - something that other Malkioni wouldn't have a problem with (the other sects may have their own hangups about some kinds of sorcery but that's irrelevant right now). What I'm interested is how it will change their philosophy and any fireworks that result. According to the Guide, the Loskalmi see the material world as a emanation of the corrupt Demiurge. Spells that work on the material world are arguably participating in his work. But if casting such spells becames morally virtuous, how would that impact on their relationship with the Invisible God? Is the Demiurge redeemable? Should energies be focused on a new Creation to replace the rrors of the old? Or should material sorcerors be condemned as polluted souls who have taken one for the team? I'm kinda interested in avoiding the Carmanian and God Learner solutions and instead focused on factionized philosophical schools.

The trouble is I mentioned that several years later to Greg. He called it an "amusing theory" and apparently forgot that he had ever written it.

I know it's often agreed with but I'm not really seeing the Kingdom of War being an inversion of Loskalm and vice versa. May be the suggestion would be better expressed as Loskalm will end up like another Kingdom of War but I don't find that sustainable these days given the Guide's talk about the Great King of the West (The number one fact about him that Ethilrist thinks is noteworthy is that he has Brithini Sorcerors Guie p750) The Kingdom of War has its own philosophy (Glorantha Sourcebook p180) which is to have "burst all bonds and broken magical walls" It is a relentless drive that has freed them from the Ban and consumed their humanity in doing so. Hence I think the Kingdom of War was the author of its own evil and not caused by anybody else. Besides undiluted evils rarely make as interesting antagonists as more human ones (compare and contrast Ramsey Bolton, King Joffrey and the Night King with Cersei, the High Sparrow or Tywin Lannister). I know the Gate of Banir is said to be in Timms but there is an apparent chaotic hellhole in Charrg (in the Argan Argar maps, the Bleak Land can be made out in the shaded portion) and it's where the local Uroxi were earning their bread and butter (Entekosiad p42). This may be referred to in the Entekosiad as Burneledos p70. That looks like a far more convincing place to summon chaos from. The relevant sentence could be construed as suggesting that Arinsor's staff is to be found in Timms but that would have to be an extremely clunky reading. My current thinking is that the struggle against the Kingdom of War is important not because it causes Loskalm to become Evil but that in order to defeat the Kingdom, the Loskalmi have to jettison some of their cherished ideals and struggle with the consequences. Loskalm will be stricken by internal disunion as it strives to adapt to new threats. The King becomes more poweerful but at the same time, the respect decreases and politcal instability including assassinations becomes commonplace.

So how do the Loskalmi oppress the Arrolians in a way that makes the Red Emperor superior to them. It can't be the collection of tribute because the Red Emperor does precisely that to places that have never acknowledged him before. It's not the use of chaos. So what is it? Except that there's little suggestion about Loskalm's tragic fall in the text. . All you are doing is focusing on a single sentence and creating an elaborate psychodrama from it. There are other ways to create an intense narrative other then make Meriatan a moral bankrupt. Except that you spend all your time jumpijg on my suggestion. For no obvious point and very little gain. And where and when is this Losklami tragedy narrative set out?

The Orlanthi rob their neighbours all the time. Hence I really don't see the use of robbery as a moral failing. Meriatan ows nothing to them - the denizens he will rob are not part of his community. I've already mentioned Harrek in this thread - does extreme violence while relying others of their possessions less morally suspect? So rather than short off one liners in a bid for gotcha games, could you please come up with more substantive suggestions?

God Learnerism was far more than just heroquesting and taking stuff. Changing the Other Side being a primary one. Even if he is looting the myths of other cultures, that does not make his actions morally suspect. The myths are a description of the Other Side, they are not sancosanct. For example, Arkat used the Talastaring myths to make the Thunder Mountain Leap having never set foot in Talastar. The Lunars made good use of Pelorian mythology despite having initially been alien to it. Belintar was a complete stranger and so on. So the Loskalmi are going to march through Jonatela, are they? So the King of the West oppresses the Arrolians but TakenEgi sends the souls of his armies to the void and collects tribute from Sog City, the Rathori and the Arrolians? Who is more oppressive here? Glyph 15 - A Man carrying a sword, a woodsman’s axe, and casting sorcery couples with the Snake Goddess and receives the Serpent Crown from three kingdoms. Stone Men guard the scene The Man is a Hrestoli and the Three Kingdoms include Seshnela. One of the three wears an extremely tall hat indicating a Zzaburi which matches with Ethilrist's description of him as the Great Talar of the West with Brithini zzaburi at his command. The only other major Kingdom around is Loskalm. The trouble is it rests upon a lot of assumptions that don't seem well founded. The Loskalmi even have special rites to stop them from being God Learners. The unity of three kingdoms isn't enough?

A defense of Meriatan, People are calling him a God Learner and other horrible names because he enters the God Time and seeks to rob its denizens of magic and artifacts. It kind of depends on who these denizens are, doesn't it? Merely because they live in the God Time doesn't make their possessions any less lootable than that of wordly countries (ie any of the several dozen that Harrek has plundered). His intention of stealing their magics may be morally laudable in a Promethean way if the denizens unjustly withheld their secrets from the mortal world.. He might even be the Great King of the West. I'm not really seeing the Loskalm becomes corrupted by Chaos in that the Gate of Banir lies on the other side of the Kingdom of War, and that neither the TakenEgi Stelae or the Black Dragon Mountain pictographs show chaos on Loskalmi behalf.

I don't think modern theories about the prison work well in Glorantha considering they are fairly unsophisticated bronze age societies. They stick people in monasteries not to reform them but because a) they don't want said people at large causing trouble or getting on the nerves of the rulers and b) they don't want to have the said people executed with the insult offered to the kin. Ideas about reforming a prisoner's personality with an eye to his eventual release are irrelevant - the prisoners are sent to the monastery with a lifetime commitment to the gods and to escape would be a repudiation of that commitment. If you want people imprisoned for a shorter time, then the best solution is to hold them captive for a ransom and put them to work using their skills. If the jailor's particularly enterprising, he might let certain criminals ply their trade (robbery, prostitution) outside the prison so long as they return and share their proceeds.

Regardless of whether are or not, they would be highly unsuitable as prisons. You want to keep prisoners locked up, not taught powerful magics and the ability to break out!

Raibanth is the City of Yelm (Noble Families, Sun Worship) while Yuthuppa is the City of Dayzatar and Buserian (Scribal Colleges and Star Worship). There are noble families in Yuthuppa and scribal orders in Raibanth but they are not as prominent.

If you are referring as to why Thomas Beckett was murdered instead of imprisoned, the knights that killed him initially went there to detain him. But he insulted them rather spectacularly, causing them to run him through. That said, Beckett is rather removed from Glorantha and a better question to ask would be where in Glorantha do prison monasteries exist?

Those spells require specific (or inferred) runic knowledge of the species or rune to be summoned or netutralised. For example, Neutralise Air requires a Storm Rune knowledge, one which cannot be replaced by any other rune. This is a different case from a sorcery spell with a magic rune as a requirement.

I think judging from their Blue Skin and the local history, the Zzaburi are more likely to be associated with the Water or Moon runes, with aptitude for magic being worth more than intellect. Yes, there's a tension between that and the demands of intellect required in mastering sorcery in that their marriage practices means they are likely to produce wizards who are magically good but hopeless with sorcery. I don't see this as a problem. I don't think that Aeolians need to have a large number of wizards to be successful. They only require one or two great wizards every generation, ten competent ones with the rest being dullards for all anybody knows or cares. That's manageable in a caste population of 1000. Their wizards have better things to do than be terrors on the battlefield.

So if the spell is temporal and the damage received if potential victims don't run away, a Lunar sorceror could economize on the range of the Moonfire by selecting the target location within ten metres and then run screaming for the spell's borders? Be real funny if someone had cast glue on him.

p391 under Spell Name: Runes and Techniques used. IMO the Magic Rune breaks down into the Six Techniques of Sorcery (Command etc.).

There is a definite difference in the sources between Gods and Spirits. As for the Invisible God being made up, I don't believe any sect believes that. The Brithini are hardcore atheists yet their sorcerers work through the Invisible God. Where they differ from other sects I think is they avoid trying to define it and concentrate on the Runes instead. If you have the Glorantha Sourcebook, look at the Xeotam Dialogues p74 for a description of how the Malkioni view the Cosmos. The Gods are intrinsic to the Cosmos in the way that the Sun and Planets are intrinsic to the Solar System. However in admitting that, it does not follow that the Gods should be worshipped.

The power of the spell comes from the sorcerer as pretty much everybody acknowledges. The knowledge required to understand the spell comes from the Invisible God (which is far closer to the Original Intelligence than to an Omnipotent God).

Depends on what you mean by atheism. 1) If you mean does not worship, then worship of the Invisible God is not necessary to perform sorcery. Some Malkioni may do it but they are considered to be stupid by others. 2) If you mean a denial of the existence of Gods, then I don't think this is Glorantha. The Gods are real, not figments of imagination. Whether they should be worshipped is another matter.

A spell taking one or more melee rounds to cast. That's true for all forms of magic. Lhankor Mhy is the son of Acos the Lawgover (or Mostal depending on which source you read) and Orenoar (the Goddess of Truth). His version of Henosis will put the worshipper into either of his parents. The God Learner will say, the worshipper's really hooking up to an inferior version of the Invisible God. I do not believe in different types of sorcery. There is only one sorcery which stems from the Invisible God. However the name and nature of the Invisible God varies according to his worshippers (Loskalmi, Seshnegi, Fonritans, Lhankorings and Mostali). One believes the Invisible God is utterly removed from the world while another believes he is totally manifest. Depending on what the worshippers believe, some forms of sorcery are available or forbidden. Pretty much every worshipper believes his own version of the Invisible God is the Absolute Best Invisible God there is and that everyboy else's are just plain wrong.

My initial thinking (and this should not be an indication of what the rules actually will be) There are two possible criteria: knowledge of a rune and/or technique OR knowledge of a sorcery spell. Based on Jeff's comments about the Open Seas spell, it looks as though knowledge of sorcery spells is anathema. In practice, I don't think this distinction will matter too much as sorcery is really only effective if you cast Big Spells. Otherwise you are better off learning the equivalent rune and spirit magic spells. As to why Orlanth might have an issue with the knowledge of sorcery (which would extend even to Lhankoring Sorcery even though they are the best of friends). Knowledge of Sorcery requires some degree of henosis, the unity of one's mind with the Invisible God (based on Real World Neoplatonism FWIW). This insight is incomptable with the direct worship of other great gods (Gods that are rune owners). This means that worshippers of Daka Fal, Orlanth, Humakt, Ernalda and Yelm cannot learn sorcery. This doesn't explain why other gods might prohibit the use of sorcery (ie Waha or Yelmalio)

My guess: Buserian - since it's Lhankor Mhy under a different name Zorak Zoran - coz Arkat. Pavis Vivamort

Joerg, there is really no need to parade your erudition and try and nitpick things into the ground. It's dull and tedious and adds nothing, The description of the Genertelan Pujaleg says nothing about them looking Kralori in appearance. Could you even bother to question your own assumptions before posting? If you even bothered to look at the reference that I gave - you will see the Vingkotlings amply mentioned in the text and the map. I have no time for your assertion that Vingkot was born in the Flood Age because it's just another needless assumption that you have made for which the evidence is scant (don't bother trying to defend it, it will only lead to more of the same) I really have see no evidence for this statement of Greg and quite frankly I don't believe it. You should do better than to rely on pronouncements from Greg that nobody else has ever heard. Except that the various people you list don't acutally have a tradition of coming from Pamaltela (or the South), do they? They did? All that is said is that they went north to fight chaos. No mention of when or if they were pursuing a god. Since Umath himself fought Chaos, you cannot use the motivation of the Agimori to date their journey, Again, there's another needless assumption. There was ample land before the Flood to make the trip.

As well as the Men-and-a-half there are also the Pygmies (now Impala and Wasp-Riders). In the Book of Heortling Mythology, there is mention of a Great Spirit Army under the leadership of Karjarkan who invades the Vingkoltings (p34, Map p74 and legend p75). This is during the Flood so the land is still fertile then. Identifying them as being from Pamaltela, roughly lines up with Greg's thinking (a low bar I grant you but still...) It gets worse. Even in the earliest writings about Prax (Nomad Gods 1st ed rulebook p65), there is mention of Storm Bull being an invader while the Tadashi are natives It just so happens that there is another known land of Beast-Riding Nomads - Umathela, home to Desero's Horde which menaced the Artmali Empire. Might the Sons of Storm Bull have been part of the invading Agi army alongside the Agimori, the Pygmies, the Zaranistangi and the Basmoli? I conjecture wildly, you decide!

My brief thoughts on the Aeolian magical social structure (mainly to make them distinguishable from the Carmanians and Ralians). They have no priests of the cults beyond the wizard caste - only God-Talkers and Rune Lords. Those people still learn spirit and rune magics. Their wizards generally stick to sorcery. They see their spells are regulating the well-being of the gods, replacing the need for barbarous sacrifices. They consider sacrifices to be an error that makes the Gods go bad.

There are no IMO there are no non-wizard members of the Aeolian Zzaburi Caste. All members of that are trained as wizards and expected to perform their duties as wizards. Granted some of them would be quite incompetent as wizards but they will still be expected to perform sorcery (if they don't know any techniques, their magic is doubled in cast). A better question might be do they learn any other magic in addition to sorcery?