metcalph

Oh! Game Balance! Saying that mysticism sucked because the mystic PCs were far weaker than other PCs is far more informative than saying mysticism sucked because Greg didn't do maths. There's a meditation skill in RQG already. What does the Mythras skill do that this cannot? As for a mysticism skill, the most obvious answer would be the old RQ total number of Nysaloran Riddles known. Here's where I have a problem. You seem to be describing mystical magic as being Big Cheesy Spell Effects but this could be amply done with conventional magics in RQG. Enhancing Attributes could be done using a Strength Spell (or similar), Skill Enhancements with an Ironhand or even more the more exotic pathways, there's Runic Inspirations. So rather than invent a brand new spanking magical system, something which the Guide suggests doesn't exist - I would reserve mysticism for the insights that allow them to do some rune level/hero level magics and describe those fancy magics using the conventional magic we know and love. For Darja Danad, the mysticism would be Kabalt. They would know rune magics that allow them to invoke Kabalt in various circumstances and the strength of these spells is dependent on their knowledge of Kabalt (ie equivalent to number of Nysaloran Riddles known). I'm not familiar with what you are referring to here. No current RQ rules system describes what ordinary Heroes do either so pointing out that it doesn't describe mystical heroes doesn't seem that noteworthy.

The local name for Lokarnos would be Kanestal One-Hand

Hardly any math is involved in the HW Mysticism rules. It's not the reason it was poor. How? Please could you give an example of say a mystical cult using HW mystical concepts. You keep saying Mythras is the answer but you don't give any details.

IMO when practiced by a human, Dragon Magic would look more conventional in terms of mechanics (Rune Magic primarily but other types are plausible). A human studying Dragon Magic would still be engaging in mysticism because the experiences he achieves would be mind-altering at the very least. Lunar Magic would be another form a mystical magic but I have no knowledge of how it would be handled within RQG.

Stylistically Teshnos will have a lot in common with Seshnela as it was part of the Middle Sea Empire. Hence I assume the Kingdom of Eest to be the equivalent of the Indo-Greeks of Bactria. Teshnos lost half its gods from, I believe, the Goddess Switch. I think that after the departure of Avlor, there was a God Learneresque faith in charge. This was smashed to pieces by Sheng Seleris and the current fiery focus put in place. The post god-learners survive as groups of philosophers like the Charvaka. The Celestial Empire also brings in some Dara Happan elements. The Guide retains the old description of how Teshnos is run (the Vessel of Light advised by Five High Priests) but also puts in a new scheme. Is the Vessel of Light the High Priest King of Teshnos or the meditating mystic (Guide p428)? Is Garusharp the Priest General of Teshnos or merely the Prince of Wokistan? Does the scheme described on the frieze represent the power structure across the whole of Teshnos or merely that of central Teshnos. The Nagas are mentioned as being in Pamaltela (Guide p702) so they may have arrived with the Zaranistangi. It's possible from the very name of the kingdom that they were involved in the Dawn Age Kingdom of Iznagril.

Another example: WHITE SUN LORDS Founded by Karvanyar who had become incrasingly irritated by the tiresome taboos and obscure restrictions that the Dara Happan Priesthood laboured under. Using their illumination they could cast any fire or light rune magic that they had studied. The white sun cults were hugely popular among the masses who saw it as their chance to spiritual prosperity. Although hugely successful against the Dragons, the White Sun Lords were never liked by the nobility and the priesthood and were eventually whittled down due to assassinations, treachery, being sent to seek allies from Dorastor etc.

An examples of what I think Gloranthan "mystical cults' would look like: SUNSTOP SCHOOL Supposedly based on the teachings that were revealed to Yanoor during the Sunstop. Hwoever many schools claim such inspiration and the first unambiguous mention of the Sunstop School is from a court case in the New Dragon Empire which dismisses its magics as being "cheap cantrips scrounged from Vormaini Pirates". According to the school, Yanoor agonised over the disparity between actions performed within Time, which have a beginning, a middle and an end, and actions performed within Eternity, which are always happening. Only in the Sunstop, did Yanoor understand how they could be reconciled. The adherents mediate upon their actions and seek to perform them timelessly. Once successful in a Timeless Action, they draw closer to illumination. The school has no magic other than Timeless Actions. They do not prohibit the learning of magic from foreign sources, but consider it a distraction. Timeless actions are similar to the Ki skills from the Land of Ninja but generally require Rune Points to activate.

Teshnos is amply depicted in the Guide. Elephants and Wavy Swords are things that stand out as being distinctively Teshnan. I'm not seeing the problem?

Because they tried it with Hero Wars and the rules were somewhat shit. IMO there's no such thing as a mystical magic. You can use magic to strengthen your soul, like say heat stone on a hot rock and then holding it for several hours and that would be considered mystical. But the source of the magic (be it spell, spirit magic or feat) is still worldly. If you want exotic magic (ie magic outside the experence of a central Genertelan) then there's plenty of scope in the basic RQG rules for that. Rune Magic without the Gods, Self Worship , Pyschic surgery to confer Shamanic Gifts etc etc. That may be considered by the central Genertelan (and even by some of the residents) to be mysticism but the God Learners can demonstrate that all the magic is ultimately worldly in origin. The Illumination rules are provided in the HQG rulebook.

Shapechanging is known in Peloria although I've yet to discern the mythic rational for it. As for sorcerous shape-changing, I prefer to import the Golden Ass as a Grimoire, make its founder a Ralian wizard who wanted to become a bird but - according to his enemies - transformed himself into a Donkey.

All Gloranthans are re-incarnated by default (it's not a matter of belief). Salace is a way out of the endless cycle of life and death.

The Fonritans would generally be hostile to the Storm Gods of Umathela and vice versa. The Battling Brothers would care about anybody else except each other. Jokutu would be upset at being grouped as part of the Fonritan Gods as he is hostile to them. Ompalam is cited as a supporter of Vovisibor and so would be friendly to Gark, Seseine, Ikadz and Pocharngo in Gods of Glorantha. How Pocharngo would work within Fonritan society, I have no idea. Note that until recently, I think the majority of Fonritans didn't know that Gods of the Fonritans were chaotic until the Vadeli showed them. Now they are grappling with the idea and they have not arrived at a solution. As for other chaotic cults, such as Malia and Krarsht, the Fonritans would tolerate them based on how useful they would be to the Rulers. Strong dislike. That said there is a cult of Pamalt that appears to have been retrieved from the ruins of Tishamto. This would be different from other Pamalt cults in Fonrit and on the Veldt and so would be tolerable. Gods of Glorantha (AH version) has Pamalt describe Orlanth as a big bully and I think that would not change.

I think the Gargoyles are the children of the earth gods who have become so far desendant that they are little more than physical spirits. I do think Gargoyles have different origins depending on the Earth Gods that created them (Pamalt, Gata, Genert, Mostal)

Pah. Set it in the Rubble. Problem solved!

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Artmal and Gbaji are non-Theyalan names (Artie being Pamaltelan and Gbaji being Western)

In my response to you I wrote (italics mine) And what did you think I could be referring to when I expressed swerious doubt about a Thanatari being able to move from Carmania to Prax? And how do you get from that to preferability? If you didn't like my responses to you then consider the quality of your own.

It's kind of bad form to edit a post when I've already responded to it so it looks that I've deliberately avoided the topic. The Crimson Bat is in-your-face but also State-Supported. The Vampire City is rumoured as in the Legion of Broos. There are no rumours about Thanatari. Yara Aranis is not chaotic and supported by the population because they know Sheng Seleris is worse. Thanatari are not calm by any sane definition and a couple of remote monasteries would be quite noticeable, may be even worthy of a mention in the Guide. Even if there were Thanatari in Carmania, I fail to see how a Priest of Thanatar with heads at his belt could make the long journey from there to Prax.

I said nothing about them being preferable. I said they could conceal their nature, which is something completely different. I had hoped you would have understood the difference between a worshipper of Thanatar on one hand and a worshipper of Krarsht, Vivamort or Cacodemon on the other.

And Joerg now pretends that he wrote something completely different. I did not start the argument about canon in this thread. That was Svensson. Pointing out that something is not canon is a legitimate respnse to someone who asserted that it was and that I chose to not to use your euphenism, does not give you the right to single me about as following a "very strict" policy. You have no moral authority to be policing anybody about the tone of their statements when your own tedious transgressions are all too apparent. It was helpful in the way "may not be canonical any more" is not. And I was criticizing a specific statement about Thanatari in Carmania which even you conceded was bollocks. I did not say the Caverns of Dyskund do not exist which would have been a valid case of baby and bathwater quip. If you had spent far less effort in making quips and boasting about your time with the Buserian links (you don't see me making similar comments about the Glorantha Wikia. Should I be?) and paid more attention to what other people were actually saying, you would have seen this.

Except that the Lunar Empire has been described as hating Thanatari in Cults of Terror. They can tolerate the Bat and other chaotic gods but Thanatar has no restraint and so is purged without mercy. The Empire doesn't favour Krarsht. Krarsht conceals its own actions and is well-known for it. The same goes for Cacodemon and to a lesser extent Vivamort.

Because they are psychotically evil?

Seriously? The Thanatari walk around with heads on their belts. They stand out in a crowd. How are they going to escape civilized societies from mustering in troops and magicians to kill them? It doesn't matter how powerful they are - they have no friends and no means of concealing themselves.

It's not been stated. One idea that i had before was

I'm not interested in debating the nature of abusrdity. I am simply stating as a blunt fact that the idea of significant Thanatari worship in Carmania and that a Thanatari priest could travel from Carmania to Prax is deranged nonsense considering that Thanatar is one of the few chaotic cults the Lunars would quite happily wipe out. If the priest had been one of Vivamort, Krarsht or Cacodemon then it would be plausible but not Thanatar.