metcalph

I think the Colour of Magic put it best: If everybody has gold then the price for everything in gold rises. This won't affect the Orlanthi all that much since they can pay in cows (and silver to a lesser extent).

The DP gazetteer is no longer canonical. Hence events mentioned therein may not have happened. The Throne was mentioned as being in Clearwine in Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes p300 and p314 so it's more likely that the Tarshites never retrieved the Ivory Throne.

I dunno about the destruction of the economy as it looks a little too sophisticated for the Uz, even for the Argan Argar cultists of the Shadow Plateau. As for the second, that sounds like a variation of the Swarm - an army which moved from Halikiv to Dagori Inkarth circa 1622 ST (Guide p94)

I think they weren't given a choice. Sheng leaves them to cook for a certain amount of time and then just before they are ready to decide, he pulls them out and quenches them. That way he has intentionally made them into failures.

This sounds hideous to my ears, reeking as it does of a bland magical effect given out because of some throwaway comment. The Zolathi have endured the World Of Hurt for far longer than ordinary mortals have been alive. They are as a result immune to spells that cause pain and suffering or spells designed to lead them astray. Variants of the World of Hurt have been developed among the subject populations of the Celestial Empire - the All, the World of Flame, the Agony of the Six Suns etc. Each of these confer different strengths and weaknesses. Being still in great pain, the Zolathi can make others briefly aware of the torment of the World of Hurt. Whenever someone attempts to do magic upon them, they become briefly exposed to the World of Hurt and must suffer greatly to complete their magic.

In Hero Wars/HeroQuest 1.0, they had revived their avilry and had several regiments. But this revival is now non-canonical. The rarities survived into the Storm Age (there was a Bird-Riding Empire then) and were wiped out in the Great Darkness. Anaxial's Roster did say that they were different from the Demibirds for all that's worth.

Twisted mystics who would be still stronger than everybody else. Who cares it they are not demigods, they will still kick ass for Sheng. None of what you are revealing from your supposedly sooper-sekret chaosium source is actually new. It was published in the Glorantha Com IV compendium way back in 1997. it doesn't contain anything like do this stuff for less than a hundred years and you are a twited mystic,not a proper demigod like Sheng.. There's no cut-and-dried details on how powerful a person is depending on how long a mystic has been in the torture camp. All that is said is that the process took less than the 100 years that everybody knew that a large group of tribesmen were freed even earlier (and perhaps unfinished) when Sheng achieved apotheosis in (1)444. As matters stand, I'not particularly interested on maintaining total fidelity to some jottings over twenty years old - I'm interested in providing something that Jeff Erwin can use for his campaign.. That's not what is said about the Zolathi. The Fortunate Succession merely says "They were immune to many magics" FS p74. Many is not all. Let's see. Sheng preaches the worship of Jolaty whose followers are known as the Zolathi (from the Kralori runes Zho Lath Ey) but his elite warriors etc are not Zolathi? Not making much sense to me. Rather than state it should be so on the basis that what some document states, you should be using it as a springboard to describe what you think it should be like. I'm not particularly interested in arguments to the effect that because the Zolathi took a hundred years to make, the bursts cannot be Zolathi because they were with him in the very beginning. I would rather hear something like Shneg had a variety of people under his banner - Kralori, Teshnans, Dara Happans, Praxians and Ignorants. He organized matters so that with every fresh crop of Zolathi that he had, the Pentans (the bursts) were always a majority and his closest family and friends would be the strongest people in his Celestial Empire when the century was up. How do you know that? The source document doesn't say that. I'm simply supposing that because he had the capacity to get some out early, he chose to pursue to have some Zolathi mature early, some Zolathi mature in 25 years and some Zolathi mature in a 100 years time. I'm ascribing foresight and planning to a very clever Sheng.

That doesn't necessarily have to be the case. Assume Sheng lays down his first batches of Zolathi in 1355. One crop is filled with his strongest companions and he intends to reap them in a hundred years time. At the other end of the scale is a group is full of recent hanger-ons and he intends to reap them in five years time. When they report for duty, they will be tough but not so tough that he beat them all up with one hand behind his back. As time grows by Sheng acquires more potent Zolathi who are increasingly loyal to him. As the same time throughout that period, when Sheng acquires some new hanger-ons, he can easily give the best of them the five year treatment. In addition, Sheng has complete flexibility as to when he gets the new batch of potent Zolathi. He may intend one batch to be tortured for fifty years but because of trouble elsewhere, he decides to finish their torture in 45 years instead. There's also the possibility that some of his supporters (Praxians, Dara Happa on Horse) are busy making their own batch of Zolathi (such as the order of Kerestus).

The story I heard was that Zolathi was Jolaty written down in Kralori runes. Beyond his association with good slvary, nothing is knonw. It's possible that Jolaty could have been a Fonritan philosophy thatt Shneg encountered in Kralorela as stranger religious diffusions have occured in the real world (in particular, the Ahura Mazda of the Zorastorians is the same as in the Japanese car maker, the patron deity of Manchu rule, Gesar of Ling, turns out to have been based on Julius Caesar and some Aboriginal people in Northern Oz worship a supreme deity that they picked up from visiting Muslim sailors in medieval times).

Rather than have the Brithini being smaller than normal, I like to think their actual substance has been tapped out so they are slightly less substantial than the ordinary human. This carries over in combat where they can ignore the first few points of damage depending on how much they have lost. It's not a normal Tap spell but then again the Brithini invented Tapping so they can use whatever variant they see fit. And for the snappy monickers, call this the Brithini Nazgul theory.

I think from the brief description of Master Herds Allosaurs in History of the Heortling Peoples as a rebel, they lived in the Elder Wilds having broken away from the Dragon's Eye after the Dawn. That said there is a race of dog-headed lizards called the Agarzi who could have been Dragonewts. They were foes of the Darjiinians in the Golden Age and did not survive.

The xxed out text apparently says "or been conquored by an estimated" and not as I originally supposed "or been conquered by an eskimo".

Do we know that? Would the Lunars know where the Pentans were entering their territory? Should they have troops stationed every few kilometers? If so, would they be able to put up any resistance or call for reinforcements in time? It's not like this was a small area to cover. The Lunars have Moonboats. Kastoki The Lunar College of Magic (minor, major and crater-maker). Client kingdoms of Koth and Venthil Access to a decent river for troop transport Scounts and merchants to keep an eye on the tribes beyond. The key point of defence is to defend the territory they have not give it up to the nomads without a fight. Instead we have "The citizens retreated into their citadels to await the army." Glorantha Sourcebook p169. What is the point of having a big army if you don't bother defending your borders from an obvious threat?

That may be but the apparent defence strategy of the Lunar Empire - to have no troops on the border - is somewhat bizarre.

I wasn't complaining about the time it took to conquer Kralorela, I was commenting on the time the length of preparation for the invasion of Kralorela. I could accept two to five years preparing to invade Kralorela, I cannot accept 27.

There's a sentence from the Fortunate Succession in describing his preparations for the next combat with the Red Emperor "He spent part of the year in the sky, tempting new spirits to come to aid him." FS p57. Because of this, I don't believe multi-year absences on the Otherside are plausible explanations for his disappearances.

A simple list of Sheng's whereabouts. 1250 - Kralorela - Defeated by Exarch. Century of Slavery begins. 1350 - Kralorela - Century of slavery ends. Performs miracles in Boshan. 1352 - Kralorela - Now known as Sheng Seleris. 1355 - Kralorela - Leaves Boshan for Pent. 1356 - Kralorela - seizes the Iron Forts 1361 - Wastelands - Praxians submit to Sheng. 1362 - Kralorela - Invades Kralorela 1363 - Kralorela - Defeated by Godunya. Teshnos is under Sheng's rule at this time. Although interestingly enough his vassal there has a partial Dara Happan name some years before the Lunar Empire is first attacked. 1375 - Peloria - Defeats Lunars at Yuthuppa 1382 - Peloria - Siege of Glamour. Wrestles with Red Emperor 1390 - Peloria - Sheng sends fatal curse against Red Emperor 1404 - Peloria - Conversion of Alkoth. 1405 - Peloria - Failed attack on Yara Aranis at Good Shore. 1415 - Peloria - Sheng kills Red Emperor. 1442 - Peloria - Conversion of Kostaddi. Kralorela - Conquest. 1443 - Peloria - Apotheosize as a Hero 1444 - Peloria? - Possible involvement in slaughter of Sable People. New Star created (said by Lunars to have been the previous year). 1448 - Peloria - Deflects the Mad Sultanate away from his lands. 1449 - Peloria - Red Moon landing 1452 - Kralorela - Failed invasion of Vormain. 1456 - Peloria - Sack of Jord's Eye 1460 - Peloria - Defeat at Battle of Kitor There's several notable interregnums. After the 1363 defeat, Sheng takes 12 years to muster an army against the Lunar Empire. I think that in 1355 ST, he gained the allegiance of the Eastern Pentans by the shores of the Hot Lakes. Therefore after 1363 ST, he is conquering the Western Pentans and other sundry places within such as Senbar. After defeating the Lunars at Yuthuppa, he's gone again for seven years before leading an army against Glamour. After that, he's gone from Peloria for 22 years (apart from a brief curse) until he converts Alkoth and has a nasty tangle with Yara Aranis. He does some prepation for another duel against the Red Emperor which doesn't take place for another ten years. And then there's another gap of 27 years. Part of that is probably the invasion of Kralorela but I find it difficult to imagine that this took 27 years. So where does he go? And what kept him so busy?

A thing about Sheng's Brother is that Sheng is about 100+ years old at the time. A possibility is that the Brother is actually the leader of Dara Happa on Horse, so-called because he was worthy enough to be addressed as Brother by Sheng.

I have some issues with the accepted chronology of the Seleran Wars. I have no doubt that the Lunars believe that the events of the Redline History and the Fortunate Succession in this period is accurate, it's just that some parts don't make much sense. What happened to the Bat? Surely sending it against Sheng Seleris is what it's designed for? (It also wasn't at the Battle of the Four Arrows of Light but it was at the Battle of Castle Blue). Elsewhere in the Glorantha Sourcebook, JarEel is mentioned as riding the Crimson Bat in the Third Battle of Chaos. When was the Second? Was the Crimson Bat sent against Sheng Seleris and defeated? Did Sheng capture it and use it as his personal steed elsewhere? Sheng Seleris manages to ride his army all the way up the Arcos Valley to Yuthuppa before doing battle with the Lunar Empire? Whatever happened to putting a massive army between First Blessed and the Redlands? Was there an earlier conquest of First Blessed by the nomads? Or had First Blessed revolted against the Red Emperor beforehand? By 1377, there are three or four centres of resistance to Sheng Seleris: Glamour, Alkoth, Sylila and the Western Reaches? Why doesn't Sheng do the obvious thing and kick their heads in? He's invincible in Battle. But he doesn't move against Glamour for another twelve years. Perhaps after the Battle of Yuthuppa, the supposed centres of resistance submitted to Sheng Seleris and paid tribute? As a result of his wrestling match with the Red Emperor in 1389 ST, Sheng manages to steal a portion of the Red Emperor's worship over Kostaddi but doesn't use it for another 54 years? This is after he has already killed the Red Emperor in the meantime who then used the knowledge to beget Yara Aranis? Who on earth waits that long? And who precisely are the rebels? Next door for all those 54 years is Dara Happa on Horse who would gladly annex Kostaddi if asked.

Another feature of the Celestial Empire is that their supporters are often from distant lands. In Peloria, this means that the horse nomads will have civilian rulers and back-up troops from Teshnos (Elephants), Boshan (Tetsudo shieldwalls) and Ignorance (bloody handed maniacs). They would have sent in Animal Nomads but the Pelorians are accustomed to those by now and the Horse Nomads don't want the Hungry Plateau getting any more allies.. Pelorian warriors would be sent to Teshnos, Boshan and Ignorance. They will be treated marginally better than they would be in their homeland and forbidden to fraternize with the locals even to speak their language. All interactions should be only be spoken in the Pentan Language and then only through authoritized intermediaries. The Empire prefers that their auxillaries hate and fear the natives with deaths resulting from inevitable misunderstandings to be a good thing. If player-heroes are in a distant part of the Celestial Empire and carry out their orders without killing any natives then they are surely fraternizing with the enemy...

I see the Celestial Empire as geared towards supporting a magically invincible army of conquest. The cities and roads fall into ruin and decay as the grain and funds for their maintenance are diverted elsewhere. Signs of rebellion crushed whenever possible to maximize what can be extracted from a servile populace. The core of the Celetsial Empire are the Zolathi, the invincible slaves of Jolaty. Their souls have been cooked in the Empire's monasteries before being quenched and released to fight for Sheng. The monasteries do not produce Zolathi every year but they are built with a select amount of would-be Zolathi sealed within them. There they remain suffering in torment until they are needed. Then the seal is broken, the Zolathi released and the monastery abandoned. The older a monastery is, the more resources it requires to keep the souls within in torment. Because of this most of the Empire's resources goes towards keeping the monasteries running. Any player-heroes unfortunate to be sent to the monasteries are not killed. Instead they are made to labour day and night making the lives of the would-be Zolathi within a constant torment. Their duties range from cracking whips, keeping the irons hot, playing discordant music etc. Often the Abbots gives them enchantments so they can work longer and harder without tiring. The would-be Zolathi are constantly trying to escape and see their tormentors as foes.

The Glorantha Sourcebook has some maps which give additional detail. For instance, after the Lunar Empire collapsed there was a rebellion in and around Darsen led by the Ancient Way. It seems they were all slaughtered because next wane, their lands are part of the New Grasslands.

That merely may have been referring to the fact that the Pelandans and the Darjiinians were still under Carmanian control. And the magic is more tolerant of differences than you suggest. The original ritual required the use of Jarasans (Glorious ReAscent p85) riding Tall Birds but Cavalry was later used (Glorious ReAscent cover picture, Entekosiad p51 and the Day Owls at the Battle of Night and Day (History of the Heortling Peoples p26). As for the magic required that the troops be summoned from the ancient sites, I don't think that is required. Gartemirus for example is not summoned but merely asked by an exile who had asked for help (Entekosioad p51). The exile has also obtained horses but these are from the south (Nivorah) rather than being from the northwest (where the Riskestings were). Likewise Periades provides Zarkosians but only follows the letter of the ritual (History of the Heortling Peoples). If he were magically summoned then either the spell wouldn't have worked on him since he no longer followed Zarkosite ways (if he ever did) or impelled him to outfit troops in the required fashion (which he doesn't). Since he's following the letter (and not the spirit), it seems to me he's acting of free will. Zulox lies at the border of Vanch (Guide p715) with the Zarkosites not far off. It shouldn't have been too hard to send emissiaries to the Zarkosites asking them to show up at the required meeting place.

They however served in the Dara Happan army at the Battle of Night and Day as though they were meant to be Zarkosites. Much of the confusion I feel is that we are arguing over multiple definitions of Zarkosites. The people who call themselves Zarkosites. The people that the Dara Happans call Zarkosites. Any people descended from the Golden Age Kingdom of Zarkos. Your position is that the people of Zulox are Zarkosites. That's fine. You also think that nobody else (ie the Votanki and the Tunoralings) refers to themselves as Zarkosites. I can agree with that. Where I think you go to far is suggesting that the Dara Happans do not consider the Tunoralings or the Votanki Zarkosites (the evidence is clear that they felt the Tunoralings to be Zarkosites) or that there is no connection between the Golden Age Kingdom of Zarkos, the Tunoralings and the Votanki That's not the origin of the Zarkosites. That's the Dara Happan myth of how the Zarkosites ended up where they live after the Flood. Zarkos existed before the Flood. When Yelm ruled at Yuthubars, Zarkos is shown to the southeast as the land of Serenity (Glorious ReAscent p8). Zarkos is again shown as being extant when Murharzarm established the Ten Cities (Glorious ReAscent p12). When the Gods Wall was built, people shown in Zarkosite fashions (hides and furs according to the Glorious ReAscent p56). All this is before the Flood. Even the myths of Uryarda getting off the boat early refers to this when it says "The wide open oat fields made her homesick, and so she debarked m Zarkos where her folk lived a clean,,, pious, and respectable lifestyle. In this way the Outer Nations were started again, and their plants and animals were distributed again through the world." Glorious ReAscent p22. As an aside I don't believe all the Golden Age Zarkosites were wiped out by the Flood but that's irrelevant here. So there is a clear continuity between the Golden Age Kingdom of Zarkos and the country founded after the Flood.

However the Tunoralings of Lolon are described as ancestral to the Vanch (Guide p339) who were supposed to fight in the Zarkosite style at the Battle of Night and Day but their King decided otherwise (implied in p25 of History of the Heortling Peoples). So merely because the people of Zulox are described as Zarkosites does not preclude others from being so. Moreover all the Dara Happans concerned was fighting style - they didn't really care if the people herded goats or hunted so long as they bore slings in battle. Perhaps you settled elf-woods who disliked the goats munching on their trees.