M Helsdon

The Castle Coast is probably the most useful remnant of the MSE and seems to maintain much of its society and structure, in that it includes a version of Hrestolism (including Joy), and a meritocracy in that able individuals can rise in class/caste, though the old powerful noble houses stay powerful. One problem is that there are many versions of Hrestolism, and they differ in their interpretation and implementation of social and religious matters. The other complication is that the attitudes of the MSE developed and changed over time. The MSE version of Hrestolism is distinct from both the earlier versions and very different from the New Hrestolism of Loskalm. The freedoms created by Hrestol were the basis of the freedoms that permitted the God Learners the philosophical insights to exploit the natural magical world, but it also permitted the MSE to exploit and use gods, so that Tolat was important for their armies and Wachaza for their navies. Even before the formation of the MSE Hrestolism was divided regarding the use of gods. The MSE also mostly divided its imperial bureaucracy into a civil structure, and a military one, and after its fall, the military rankings became the basis of the surviving aristocracy in many places, much as the Roman office of Dux, War Leader, became the social rank of Duke.

One constant in every Age since Time began is that anything that seriously alters the state of the Gloranthan cosmos ultimately summons its own destruction. The birth of a new manufactured god, the attempt to create a new manufactured dragon, the exploitation of the cosmos, the creation of a perfect society, the rebirth of a moon, all lead to their equal and opposite and massive destruction. Nysalor's Bright Empire led to a war across a continent; the EWF tried to utilize draconic powers and the dragons returned to eat it; the Middle Sea Empire rose to great heights until the laws of nature brought it down; the New Hrestolism of Loskalm is mirrored by the Kingdom of War; the rise of the Red Moon will ultimately cause it to fall. Nysalor summoned Arkat. The Red Emperor summoned Sheng Seleris. Jar-eel summoned Argrath. All these things will bring massive destruction because each distorts Glorantha, and as before Time, each leads to an increase in entropy and the devolving of nature and magic. Morality in these events is almost impossible to determine, but they all bring a massive increase in mortality.

Safelstran militia are certainly mediocre; Safelstran mercenary armies are likely to be very diverse, with the best highly professional. (Sir Ethilrist and his White Horse Troop began as Safelstran mercenaries, and went north because of setbacks). Regarding logistics - the caravan route from Drom to the Manirian Road will require a network of depots to keep the trade caravans fed and watered, mostly probably too small to appear on the larger scale maps, and the network might be used for military campaigns, but probably won't be, as for at least part of the route the Pralori are probably part of the supply chain. Similarly, some of those mercenaries in Safelster are probably from Pralorela...

Whilst it is not RuneQuest based, The Coming Storm may be of interest because internal clan politics and the roles of men and women are important to the plot of some of the scenarios in The Eleven Lights.

I assumed that Greg had the idea from Korean Turtle Galleys, but didn't copy the design. The oars are a back-up system as it is usually propelled by an Elemental, and if stranded by low tide can extend short stumpy legs and walk... In addition to a ram, it has a fire projector. A Zistorite invention. This doodle concludes the ships I have roughed out.

I have been attempting to draw ships of the Gloranthan West (Page 44): The merchant ships are in your link are fine for Glorantha.

Latest. As with the other ships this is a little stylised, as perspective would have meant the oars would have terminated at the same level. Last week as the flareup started I roughed out these ships so that I could continue drawing, and this is almost the last one roughed out. I could do a Safelstran Fortress barge, but it isn't very interesting, visually. Will have to see if I can rough out some more tonight...

That's what you are doing to me. I have been phrasing my speculations as 'suggestive', 'might', and then you jump on my head claiming I have said things I have not. I appreciate that I am speculating, and not adhering to dogma. Please don't project your behavior onto me. Myth and history occupy a grey area, in this world and Glorantha. No I am not. Some Safelstrans have Enerali ancestors. I know. I have said as much. But as noted, the Galanini clans of eastern Safelster still believe their chiefs can turn into horses. This suggests to me the survival of a very tiny Hsunchen bloodline, rare, but those bloodlines had to come from somewhere... Do they claim they can turn into horses? It's a significant difference. So you ignore an entry because it doesn't support you. Yes, I know the Brithini refer to Ehilm, but it is impossible to tell when they started using the term. For that matter, the Brithini refer to Worlath, but the Enerali used the form Erulat. I know the people of Ralios aren't Vingkotlings! That was your claim! As in: So in your book, the enslaved Kachasti were freed by Vingkotlings, became Orlanthi, but not Vingkotlings. Inconvenient that then some backed the Sun God, not the Storm God, they had Sun Horses as Noble Ancestors, and some gained an apparent ability to turn into horses from somewhere. In my book, the enslaved Kachasti were freed by Vingkotlings, some became Vingkotlings, others became the Enerali (merging perhaps with a relict Hsunchen Horse People), others became Enjoreli perhaps, and other groups as well. There was obviously a division of the Enerali into tribes that favored the Sun God (and had a Solar Horse God), and some that favored the Storm God (and had a Solar Horse God) which continued into the First Age. The term Orlanthi can cover a very wide range of cultures, but the Enerali were fairly distinct. Glorantha is all the richer for apparent inconsistencies and complexity, but I appreciate that there's often a desire for solid incontrovertible 'facts', but you won't find them in terrestrial or Gloranthan mythology, unless you are a God Learner...

Hmm, Revealed Mythologies must be wrong then, when the Western section claims the rescued Kachasti worshiped Worlath and became the Winkoti. Obviously they weren't the origin of all the Vingotlings, but Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes tells us many refugees were adopted by the Vingkotlings either as members of their tribes or as serfs. It is my speculation that not all the Kachasti joined the Vingkotlings, and became part of the basis of the more sophisticated 'Hsunchen' populations. And yes, I know it's a slur, but not necessarily entirely without basis.

Um no. If you check, you will see that what I actually originally said was: Whilst the Westerners adopted this name for the 'Sun God', its usage among the Enerali, the Pendali, and probably the Enjoreli, is suggestive that the Westerners adopted the name used by the natives of the mainland. For example, the Enerali knew of the conflict between Ehilm and Erulat over the hand of the Great Green Lady before the Theyalans arrived. And I have never stated that the ' Safelstrans are Kachasti/Hsunchen!' What I actually said was: The Enerali might have been partially descended from enslaved Malioni, but not all. I appreciate that you may find these suggestions run counter to your own speculations. You may want to read up on the very significant differences between the Greek and Roman gods... They aren't as alike as you assume, and for that matter, the Greek gods varied significantly in nature and attributes even in ancient Greece from place to place. The Romans had a tendency to religious synthesis; their own gods were fairly simplistic, lacking much in the way of myths. Their gods obviously mostly followed the Indo-European template, so that Jupiter, or in his older forms Jove and earlier Dieus-pater, is related to Zeus, Ziu, Dyaus Pita, the mythology that developed later is different. I have never said the Safelstrans are Kachasti/Hsunchen, though they are undoubtedly among their ancestors, which probably include Westerners, Theyalans, etc. A very cosmopolitan region. You seem to be fixated on the Enerali being Orlanthi - they shared some gods in common, but so do the Orlanthi and the Dara Happans... though that may be down to the machinations of Nysalor's priests merging different religions. There aren't a massive number of gods in Glorantha, and many are shared by different cultures, giving different names and attributes to them. An example would be Bisos, Urox, Storm Bull, all different avatars of the same god. (Not my speculation, but stated in the Guide). The Westerners called all the more sophisticated inhabitants of the continent (Pendali, Enerali, Enjoreli) Hsunchen. There's evidence that there may have been a small relic Hsunchen population among some of them, probably members of the ancient elite. For that matter, in addition to the Enerali claiming Eneral as an ancestor, if you examine the article you identified you will find: Galanin: The Horse God and Noble Ancestor. Galana: The Horse Goddess and Noble Ancestor. Now, perhaps the Enerali were wrong to claim these Horse Gods as 'Noble Ancestors', but when you add in this material from the Guide you will find: The Galanini The Galanini of Ralios are several scores of aristocratic horse-riding clans ruled by hereditary female chiefs. They worship Ehilm, the Sun, and Galanin, the ancestor of horses. The Galanini believe that they are kin to their mounts and some of the chieftains are believed to be able to transform into horses. They are found mainly in Galin, Estali, Helby, and Tiskos.

This one, I believe, is named for the custom that if a chieftain intends to send the clan nobles (thanes) to war, he summons them by sending out the Black Arrow. This tells the gods, the wyter, and the ancestors of the clan’s intent, and so offers magical benefits for the participants. It suggests a limited clan war band muster, of only those who will be well equipped with arms and armor.

Such as? A few partial songs and possibly portions of the Greetings. From: Jeff Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 16:07:47 -0000 > Awesome stuff, Jeff. Would be nice to see something akin to a questionnaire > for Safelster clan creation, so can we perhaps hear a bit more about the > area before the Dawn? Creation myths, etc.? Well that is likely to be quite a bit in the future, unless that ends up being a project for those who attend Eternal Con. Maybe we'll do some Dawn Age Safelster experiment! But from the material posted, you can see that the peoples of the Dari Alliance were "recognizably Orlanthi" and yet very different. And definitely unlike the materialists and Hrestoli further west. Which reminds me. When the Dangan Confederacy embraced the Theyalan religion they divided the myths of Orlanth killing the Sun (Orlanth's contests with Ehilm over Ernalda the Green Lady) from the myth of Orlanth's feud with the Evil Emperor (who the Ralians identified with Seras the Enchanter, maker of the Mostali and also identified with Malkion the god of the Westerners). Jeff You are not reading what I have written. That, if you recall, the Enerali are part Hsunchen (based on their own mythology of Galanin) and might be part Kachasti. Given the names of their deities, which vary from those of the Theyalans, any pre-Time Vingkoting veneer is very thin. I appreciate that you seem to object to the part Hsunchen genealogy, but the Enerali believed they were descended from his sons, and half of their tribes worshipped Ehilm and the others Erulat, which would be decidedly odd if they all had become Vingkotlings. Similarly, the revering of Galinin/Galana the Sun Horse, and apparently the ancestor of their aristocratic clans is also not Vingkotling - or Malkioni. Note also their use of gold, the Solar metal. It is apparent that the Enerali, and the other groups were not Vinkotlings, but a real mixture, neither pure Orlanthi nor Malkioni, whatever their ancestry, but with an addition of 'something else'. But this is severely off topic of this thread.

Hmm. They took on some Orlanthi customs in Time, a very long while afterwards. Not quite. The Enerali myths we do know of deviate from those of the Vingkotlings, such as the conflict between the Evil Emperor and Erulat/Orlanth not being between Yelm and Orlanth but between Seras and Orlanth, where Seras is identified with the Maker of the Dwarves or with Malkion (or perhaps even Zzabur). Their lifestyle, their culture, their gods. They show evidence of being of mixed Hsunchen/Kachasti in culture, and perhaps in .descent. It's a God Learner map, and doesn't have the granularity to display the origins of every culture or group. Yes, I am aware of the quotes, but again those don't contradict that the Enerali, Enjoreli, and perhaps the Pendali, Redeli and Bemuri were part Kachasti. 'Many' does not denote all, and Vingkot was later not important in Ralios or Fronela. My statement had a 'might' so I am not making the mistake of attempting to apply definite 'facts' to ancient events before Time.

The Enerali were never Vingkotlings. So: there's no evidence of the Enerali having any Malkioni myths? Other Kachasti further east may have joined the Vingkotlings. Can you identify your source? Doesn't seem to be the God Learner maps in the Guide.

Today. Only one small sketch.

And they know Zzabur as Seras (perhaps, or is Seras Malkion)? Similarity of names simply denotes contact, at some point. I am unaware of any Enerali myths that show Malkioni elements. There was certainly interaction in the world of Time. In my attempt to outline a history of the West, I have assumed that the Enerali, Enjoreli, and perhaps the Pendali, Redeli and Bemuri were part Kachasti, explaining why they were more sophisticated than the true Hsunchen, but their gods seem to be native. There may have been a cultural synthesis, but it is impossible to tell to what degree.

The Enerali might have been partially descended from enslaved Malioni, but not all.

Whilst the Westerners adopted this name for the 'Sun God', its usage among the Enerali, the Pendali, and probably the Enjoreli, is suggestive that the Westerners adopted the name used by the natives of the mainland. For example, the Enerali knew of the conflict between Ehilm and Erulat over the hand of the Great Green Lady before the Theyalans arrived.

Latest. Another three ships to do.

Wolf Pirate ships. Still only able to draw for an hour or two. [The Wolf head on the sail was GoT inspired.]

I am counting these as one sketch, though I may split them up in the book. Am roughing out a Wolf Pirate penteconter and bireme. Though not without their own difficulties, these were far easier than trying to draw a figure at present.

Thank you. Well, I have finished another sketch, after three attempts. This isn't as I'd like, but I lose fine control due to the flare-up. This noble should be riding a horse, but I decided to attempt to draw the articulated leg armor. I think that tomorrow I will attempt to do some needed illustrations that should be simpler.

Regret there may not be many sketches in the next few weeks. My arthritis has gone active, possibly due to the change in the weather here, and spending so much time sitting and writing and drawing in the last few months. The current project I am working on will take longer to finish. I need about fourteen more sketches to illustrate it - one is partially done.

Glorantha is a simulation running on the World Machine mainframe.

Orlanthi societies are very mutable, according to location. Sartar, much of Vesmonstran around the Upper Tanier, and most of the Provincial Kingdoms are rich in resources, so tribal groupings are very likely. In other areas, especially those reliant solely on herding, and even more those who are basically hunter-gatherers with fairly basic horticulture, clans are likely, and some areas will be too poor for centralized clans. So you can find 'high kingdoms' composed of multiple tribes, tribes, clans, and family groups. All Orlanthi but varying in wealth and organization.