Darius West

I got the impression that Sorana Tor was hereditary, but I might be wrong. I am pretty sure that a marriage can only be sanctioned to occur within an Earth cult if the individuals could actually be co-fertile. It stands to reason imo. Humans and morokanths aren't deities; they can't mate with mud and produce viable life forms (though I suspect we have all met people who might give it a go 😄).

Weird Mostali metallurgical sex ritual right there.

While Wind Children worship Orlanth, they are also listed as worshiping Kolat (the father of winds), and the shamans of Kolat and their fetches are called Seza. I would be surprised if they don't also worship a hunter deity, but that is likely Yinkin, not Odayla.

Probably not, but you never know. If all myths are true, then perhaps things happen exactly as they are recorded. Well, Argrath is an Orlanthi, and so he can Guided Teleport, or fly, and can use the Sandals of Darkness to pass unnoticed. Or he can just roam the land with a terrifying band of warriors and his enemies will simply pretend they cannot see him. Nobody installs kings just by their reputation alone. Argrath at this point in his life already controls the good will and resources of Prax. Crowns are bought and sold in Sartar, and it is likely that Vailor Blue Fox had his own fortune to call upon, as well as Argrath's herds. Of course, having Argrath's personally appointed man on the tribal throne of the Malani may well have been politically astute for the Malani too, so reputation certainly doesn't count for nothing either imo. Call it a 30% discount?

Cragspider is very old. She was first recorded as being a powerful Darkness Spirit (shade?) used by Gor and Gash to help the trolls escape the Underworld. She is a powerful enough Hero Quester that she made an actual race of Trolls (Great Trolls obviously). She is described as an incarnation (avatar?) of Aranea, and a direct worshipper of Arachne Solara (one of the few). She is also the double-value WMD of the boardgame, as she controls the Black Dragon (nuke) and the Pillar of Fire (nuke). While the Earth Shaker and Sir Ethilrist can create some truly impressive line destroying effects, they aren't able to do what Cragspider does, and neither can the Lunars or Sartarites. While her troops are adequate, the magic WMD she brings to the faction that allies her is what makes her a must-have, and any Sartar player who doesn't have multiple units ready to traverse the mountains to Cliffhome to ally her is being foolish. I advise using the Wasps. While she is unequivocally known as the Fire Witch, nobody quite understands how she conjures the Pillar of Flame except her. The notion of an ex-shade controlling fire in that quantity obviously isn't without precedent, but Cragspider's power over fire emerged as a result of her being caught in the Web of Arachne Solara (which are made of myth and power, not silk), where she was forced to make the Dragon's Choice. This is when she meets the Black Dragon for the first time, and it offered to ally itself to her then, but it seems she didn't perhaps take the offer at that time, as she is also recorded as allying with the Black Dragon during the Dragonkill War. Perhaps she merely renewed their acquaintance after centuries? Whatever the case, the implication is that Cragspider is best described as a semi-demi-god (not a superhero), and is almost certainly illuminated (after the Draconic or the Arachne Solara mystical traditions, as she was hostile to Nysalor even before he inflicted the Trollkin Curse). This has allowed her to survive some cosmic unions and events that would likely have slain lesser entities, and her power, coming out the other side, is to deliver death by fire despite being a thing of darkness. (At least that is my take on the evidence).

You make an interesting argument, but the idea of marrying into the Paps suffers from the problem that the position of High Priestess of the Paps isn't hereditary, it's elected, and Egajia Chewer-of-Flesh, the present High Priestess is a morokanth, and quite probably married already. It's an interesting issue though... Who would the Lunar Hierarchy marry to a morokanth? I can think of a few Lunars who deserve to.

I was commenting on the idea put forwards by Joerg that the Lunars aimed to take the Paps. The idea of the Lunars ignoring the Praxian holy peace and neutrality and seizing the Paps isn't utterly unthinkable, it's just the sort of thing an empire might do to annoying people it classes as savages.

The idea that the aim was to take a Lunar Punitive expedition to the Paps is certainly an interesting one and there is a reason I put Punitive expedition as my number 1 choice; it seems the most likely. I would also suggest that the Empire definitely had designs on Prax, because frankly, if you want to stop nomads raiding your lands, the best thing you can do is poison their nearby water sources. The main reason you wouldn't do this is (a) can't afford enough poison, or lack the tech, neither of which apply to the Lunars imo or (b) don't poison wells that you will eventually use during your invasion. I think it is reasonable to assume that Lunars had likely scouted and mapped out Prax well in advance of their first invasion, likely via Etyries merchants, so we can assume that they knew where all the oases were before they invaded, and were well aware of the importance of the Paps in Praxian religion. I have a couple of problems with taking the Paps being the goal. (1) If the aim was to stop raids on Occupied Sartar, surely invoking a Praxian jihad against you by invading their Holy of Holies isn't the best strategy (though I admit that Euglyptus is a stable genius). (2) The whole expedition seems a bit too disorganized for it to have such a clear objective. (3) The fact that the Lunars make it to the Paps for negotiations makes it seem too much like a Lunar success. There is a trail that leads from the Paps to the Stony Creek, then to Rory's Well and down to Helmbold. Unlike most water sources in Prax. Stony Creek seems to be a Zola Fel tributary of the non-seasonal kind. I would not suggest that Stony Creek was navigable by any boat with a remotely deep draught, and indeed I suspect that your average Impala could likely leap it with a run-up, but a road with 2 settlements and a water supply counts as easy access in my book. That seems like a pretty easy way from the Paps to the Zola Fell. Map evidence available in front of RQG. I don't think this invalidates your Paps argument, but it doesn't negate the idea that the Lunars are looking for a path to the sea either. Perhaps our stable genius thought he could fortify the Paps? Y'know... Build a wall?😄 Again, this depends on which map you are looking at. What we can say with certainty is that Tolkazzi and his Lunar mission find the ruins of Feroda in 1611, and founds Corflu (named for Tolkazzi's wife) around the same time, because he sells his rights to it in 1613, and the Corflu Bubble gets going pretty much immediately. The RQG 1625 map shows Sog's Ruin sitting on the top of a cliff about 10km from Prax's coastal swamp, and with no obvious water supply. I think the Lunar engineers were competent in their assessment. TBH, I think feinting around the back of the Stormwalks with an extended supply line through hostile territory to create a surprise attack on the Heorland's southern flank sounds very much like something Euglyptus might try. After all, the fortifications in the area are hardly a match for Lunar magic and siege equipment, and when enough Prax beasts all piss at the same time, Praxians call that a river. It is an act that is redolent with both stability and genius. Ici, ici, ici, et victoire Napoleon, C'est un fait accompli. ☺️. (I still give this a much lower likelihood than the punitive expedition however.) I think Lunar perception of the Holy Country at the time was that if Belintar can pull off one Building Wall, he could always do it twice, and lock down Hendrikiland. I would suggest that this is one of the main reasons why the Lunars don't invade until after Belintar is out of the picture. As you go on to say, Karse (while still not a blue water port) was realistic for the Lunars, but only after Belintar's assassination imo. In the post 1619 period, the pro-Lunar faction in Esrolia are definitely in ascendency, and I'm sure that nobody in Nochet seriously objects to getting rich on Lunar trade despite how they may publicly chafe about it.

Starbrow's Rebellion is in 1613, while the First Invasion of Prax (the one we are discussing) is in 1608, so I can't agree with your initial statement as it doesn't fit the chronology Soltkakss. In fact, the Second Invasion of Prax happens in 1610 happens prior to Starbrow's Rebellion in 1613 too. Given that the line of Dorasar, which is part of the Lineage of Sartar is still alive in New Pavis, obviously the Lunars have a vested interest in wiping it out, and of course many Sartarites had been fleeing East to New Pavis since the Lunar conquest of Sartar in 1602, so Prax and New Pavis certainly wasn't short of Sartarites who hated the empire, but that doesn't seem to have been the motive for the first invasion.

These are good points Corvantir. The territory could (logically, if not practically) be conquered quickly with limited forces, and the Sable Riders should logically come to the support of the Lunars. Of course the land itself is not exactly economically enticing to the Lunars, given that it is a great big prairie and the Lunars would regard that as a desert. As to the city controlling ancient artefacts, if the intention was to invade New Pavis then the Lunars really came up short on that one in Invasion of Prax 1. This leads me to David Scott's observation about New Pavis hiding Sartarite royals: Well, the Lunars do have a vested interest in wiping out the Sartar Royal house, and they have their own dedicated assassins. You have to assume that they have captured enough household archives and retainers that they can figure out that the Line of Dorasar is a remote but plausible threat to the occupation, especially if someone who has some ability to see through Time gets a vision that the Empire's problems start in New Pavis, as some of the HQ literature alludes to. So the notion that the aim was to conquer New Pavis is not implausible, and was certainly on the agenda in Invasion of Prax 2 (Electric Boogaloo?). As to the notion that the aim was to take/ create a blue water harbor at Corflu, my reading might be superficial, but I get the feeling that this became a mission of the occupation under Sor-Eel the Short, and turned into a massive Bubble economy for the Empire due to frontier corruption, mainly created by Sor-Eel the Short (who we might imagine as being Danny De Vito playing Julius Caesar as if he were Al Capone, or at least that's how I think of him 😁).

Pleased to hear it scott-martin, and I must say I am very gratified by the quality of the comments, so, thanks to everyone. I enjoyed your contribution so I have a few questions to tease your thoughts out a bit more. This is interesting, given that the high command is Fazzur at the time, and he's generally regarded as being the apogee of Lunar military genius. I suspect the reasoning for the attack was likely very logical, and the desperation set in later. My revised theories on that motivation are these: (1) The First invasion was a "punitive" expedition after the Roman and/or European Colonial model. The Praxians had raided into Sartar and clashed with the Lunars, and the Lunars felt that they had to punish the Praxians. The seeming lack of motive is then explained, as punitive expedition tend to have very vague objectives of 'hurt the Praxians', and that lack of clear motivation is then expressed in a lack of a clear strategic objective to fulfil. Given too much rope, the expedition commander proceeds to be given command of the wrong type of units, misjudges the style of warfare (they should be following the Yara-Aranis, anti-Pentan doctrine), and it is a bit of a wonder that the force manages to get out of Prax without being massacred. This theory imo is a good fit for the evidence we have. (2) The First invasion is an unprovoked rush for the sea. The Lunars are hungry for access to the Homeward Ocean, and having been denied ports by the Holy Country, they want to set up a port on the Delta of the River of Cradles. They follow Caravan Alley trying to make a B-line for their objective, trying to garrison and control the oases along the way, but forces left behind don't have adequate time to fortify and get wiped out. Due to the presence of the Antelope Lancers, the army is able to survive in Prax better than might be expected, and that, along with some fast talking diplomacy in a desperate situation prevents the massacre. (3) This leads on from your Belintar reference. The aim of the First Invasion was to provide a system of supply depots for a future invasion of the Heortlands from south of the Stormwalks, aiming to capture God Forgot and the southern Heortlands, rather than trying to tackle the more obvious path through Hendrikiland, where they might well find themselves facing a Second Building Wall Battle if they try. This is how the Empire will get their blue water port, and perform a surprise attack on the Orlanthi who will all be looking to their northern frontier. (4) Some charge crazy Rupert managed to convince his majesty that Fazzur lacked vision, and that Rupert (thanks to his superior inbreeding) could conquer the whole of Prax easily as the Praxians are just ignorant savages, armed with bone tipped tools, who ride silly animals. It is only due to the quality and training of the Lunar Officers under Rupert that the force manages to maintain cohesion and a complete disaster is averted while Fazzur tut-tuts into his beard in Boldhome, determined not to pull Rupert's fat out of the fire until he squeals uncle. It is an interesting idea Scott-martin save for the pronounced paucity of evidence. If the Lunars were aiming to hijack Mostali tech, there are closer and richer places to go after. If they have done any research at all, they will likely realize that the dwarves of the Big Rubble and Copper Caves aren't replete with guns like some of the other Mostali settlements. The notion of using the tunnels of the Copper Caves to go after Diamond Mountain is interesting, but logistically unsupportable. I mean... Carting enough supplies for an army into the middle of a desert so you can then mule train them through a cave system following your Lunar Spelunking Corps won't scow imo. The easier approach would be a major diplomatic push for Isidilian's support in Dragon Pass and then betray him and steal his tech. Except that I thought that the Dwarf Plan incorporated and foretells of the rise of the Red Moon as part of the repair of the world machine and sees the Lunars as a good thing. Potentially this is a source of fresh allies for the Lunars, and an existential threat to the Orlanthi I would suggest. Well, given that the sub-kingdoms/satrapies of the Holy Country incorporates all the Elemental Runes into its terrain except the Moon, this would track. The logical place to look would be God Forgot. The Red Moon Goddess spent a long time being dead and broken, and God Forgot also has a problem with its gods being a bit non-existent too. Perhaps there is a correlation?

First, thanks for the detailed replies David, they are appreciated. As to Dwarf Knoll and the Copper Caves, I suspect that one of the old machines is leaking or diverting a considerable amount of water, enough for it to produce a reliable oasis. The old Prax Map from RQ2 definitely includes Dwarf Knoll as an oasis, and other publications have made mention that it has its own human population of Oasis people living there, as well as Mostali in the Copper Caves that lie beneath the Dwarf Knoll. Do you perhaps mean that the Lunars hope to release Wakboth from under the Block? 😈 Well, technically you are absolutely correct. There are zero oases on the Pavis Road. In practice however, diverting off to Moonbroth and Dwarf Knoll for a day or so is a pretty normal behavior for merchants and other travelers using the road, assuming that they are otherwise welcome in the territory, and far from unthinkable for an army that needs a water supply. Of course it is highly unlikely that the Lunars were welcome at all, and likely had multiple Praxian warbands 'nipping' at them the whole time. Heh, this makes a lot more sense given the new RQG maps than the old RQ2 one. I would describe this as pretty much a Caravan Alley invasion route, and I tend to agree with your interpretation of the campaign route. I wonder if Chaosium will ever officially comment on the issue.

The term investments is a modern one, but essentially it means spending money to acquire assets that will generate wealth, and it has been going on since before humans invented agriculture in one form or another. Educating your young? That's a retirement investment to a tribal person. In terms of Sartar, roads, cities, inns and libraries are all investments, like it or not, and if they can be invested in, why not industries too? If the Prince owns his own herd of horses, or his own estates, that is an investment as well, and frankly for any crown authority not to control some sort of industrial monopoly on something would be just odd, historically speaking. The classic bronze age example of such a monopoly is that monarchs owned tin or copper mines and/or smithies, and the smiths were often slaves, better treated than most, but crippled deliberately to stop them fleeing with their metallurgical secrets (hence the crippled smith archetype best personified by Hephaestus), the research for which had likely been funded by the monarch, and they didn't want that information being spread.

Umm... Or you can read that as her being an utterly unspeakable bitch to her boyfriends, many of whom leave after they discover that they cannot trust her an inch, or get killed in nasty ways following her agenda. As for being obsessed with Lancelot, well (a) everyone is obsessed with Lancelot, he's a perfect Mary Sue who is only redeemed to literary humanity by his adultery, and (b) Imagine the damage Morgan could do with Lancelot in her camp. I have read uncharitable souls who describe the Arthurian Romances as the "Apotheosis of Simping", which I thought was very uncharitable but viciously funny nonetheless. In the case of Morgan Le Fay, I'd say that the relationship became intolerably abusive even for the poor masochistic souls who would normally be prepared to knee-walk from Camelot to Inverness for the sake of Fine Amor.

She would be pretty weird for a XU priestess (or maybe she didn't like the party much). Xiola Umbar priestesses have no restrictions on killing after all, and that used to be most of the attraction to playing them, they were the only non-pacifist healing cult for quite a while back in RQ2 times. In my experience, Xiola Umbar priestesses weren't exactly front line fighters, but they were very partisan and were quite happy to stave in the heads of wounded enemies and then dig in and eat the brains before they got cold. They were only remotely sentimental about troll lives for the most part, oh, and ransoms; they really got sentimental about ransoms.

So here's the thing. What was the Lunar motive for the invasion? We know that the Lunars were more than a little interested in having a path to the Ocean, but they needed a context for an invasion. Had the Praxians been raiding into Dragon Pass or even raiding Etyries merchants going to New Pavis? Or perhaps the Praxians had been offering protection to members of the Sartarite Royal house? Which oases did they get to and in what order? It is logical to assume that they started in occupied Sartar, but did they follow the Pavis Road or did they go down Caravan Alley? At what point in the campaign do they head home? Did they make it to the oases in the Head Acres? We can assume that the treaty meeting in the Paps didn't involve the entire Lunar army encamping there. Who led the Lunar expedition? While we can assume that Fazzur is in charge of the army, was he the leader of this campaign? Was this Sor-Eel's first foray? Whoever led the invasion hardly covered themselves in glory, and no doubt the propagandists had to work hard to make the fiasco seem like a victory of sorts. Which tribes were involved in harrying the Lunars? It is more than likely that the Bisons and Impala's were involved, but who else? Had the Sables gone fully pro-Lunar yet? Were the High Llamas involved? What about the morokanths, ostriches, bolo lizards, pol joni? We can assume the foot tribes weren't especially interested or necessary for this one? Which Lunar units were involved? Were they cavalry-heavy or mainly hoplites and peltasts? Which units went? Does Nomad Gods perhaps have a scenario that might be the first invasion? (Idk, as I don't own Nomad Gods).

Does anyone know where to find more info on this than is in the RQG rules?

Ah, Rurik. I remember when he got into his first fight in Gimpy's. He was using a club no less, and badly. I doubt he's even allowed to touch a club unless he's being belted with one these days.

The Crimson Bat isn't a primordial bat deity. It is a perfectly ordinary bat that fell into chaos ooze and rolled well on the Chaos features table. I am pretty sure it turned into a broo though.😈

Hey, np, glad to be of service. My take on ancient theology is that the gods, being outside of time, were always able to predict events in advance, and keep themselves out of all but the most avoidable trouble. Daimons however were just powerful, but the gods could always predict them into a corner they couldn't get out of if the Daimon became a problem.

In Glorantha, a demon seems to be any entity summoned from another plane that you don't happen to like. You could say that there is a degree of demonization going on. 😈 IRL, the term demon comes from the Greek word Daimon, which referred to non-divine supernatural beings of great power, including the spirits of heroes and some lesser gods and demigods. The crucial distinction between a divine entity and a mere daimon is discussed at length in Iamblchus' "On the Mysteries", wherein the Hellenic-Egyptian Priest Mantheo (in the Roman Era) discusses at length a great deal of the inner workings of pre-Christian theology with a Greek Philosopher. The TL/DR version is that true deities, 'divinities' are separated from daimons, because divinities are extratemporal and thus can perform reliable prophecy and divination. So the word 'divine', actually references the practice of 'divination'. It is an interesting distinction, because in essence it means that in the ancient world, a deity could be able to pull down mountains, but if they couldn't provide a Divination spell, they weren't a real god, if translating Hellenic Egyptian theology into RQ rules terms. Obviously the term demon is now synonymous with the Christian idea of demons i.e. hostile supernatural entities, but that is based on the hostile reinterpretation of what Daimons were. For example, if someone developed telekinetic power, or was fantastically strong, within the context of ancient Greece, you could say they had realized their Daimon. The term has much in common with the idea of a guardian angel, an idea that has often skated the borders of heresy in Christianity. The fact is that in Glorantha there aren't any rules of classification for what is and isn't a demon unless we invent it and retrofit the definition to cover all the facts.

You can buy up pasture and cropland, or have land cleared. You can invest in roads and bridges that you can then tax. You can invest in merchant trains to expand them in return for a portion of the ongoing profit, or start your own. A ruler may well want to invest in a winery so that you won't be at the mercy of the local market. It makes sense to invest in quarries as few people besides kings can afford major capital works. If you can obtain title to a mine, that is an excellent money maker, assuming it isn't tapped out. As guilds exist by and under the authority of a royal charter, the ruler has the ability to make a demand for X number of goods they make, by a certain date, and at the market price, and may then dispose of those goods as they see fit provided they don't abuse the terms of the guild charter. As all authority for the minting of coins is ultimately sovereign authority, a ruler has the right to own, build, and expand their own mint. There are lots of other examples.

1. If a feast is thrown, people are supposed to make a show of themselves. You should wear your best clothes and bring your prettiest weapon. Humakti will have their "money sword" for such occasions. 2. The feast will likely have guards present who are supposed to keep the peace. They will have arms and armor on, but will mainly protect the doors and the person throwing the feast. Everyone is honor-bound to behave civilly by the rules of hospitality. 3. Guests are also expected to dress well and wear their prettiest weapon. If you front up in stinky hunting skins and carrying a spear, you will likely not gain admittance until you change into something more befitting, unless you have an important message for the Chief or something. 4. Yes, but a chief can command more security. 5. Likely to have less security.

I am of the opinion that a hide of land can potentially produce far in excess of the 80L mentioned if a herd of horses is what is managed there. A herd of only 50 horses will produce 10 animals of "meat" standard every 2 years which can sell for 40L, so after the first year's investment that is a bare minimum of 400L which is in keeping with the figures for a hide in RQG p405. If however you are training Darons to cavalry standard over the course of the year 1-2, then those 10 animals (150L each) are worth 1500L at market, less 200L for maintaining the hide and its services.

Yes there are tricksters who fall into this "other" category imo. Orlanthi society has groups of people who live on the fringes of normal life. Uroxi roam the land looking for chaos, often putting aside clan and tribal loyalty in order to kill chaos. Shamans live away from the rest of Orlanthi society because they (a) spend a lot of time in the company of spirits and (b) the concentration of spirits in their vicinity makes casual contact potentially dangerous for those around them. Humakti and Yemlalios mercenaries will sell their services to clans and tribes, and spend plenty of time on the road between jobs and settlements. Orlanthi rebels are often hiding out in the woods. Issaries merchants may be 'of the travelling kind', rather than shopkeepers. There are plenty of fringe dwellers, and many tricksters are able to slot themselves into such transient societies for a short while at least. Arguably the Puppeteer troupes have lots of tricksters in them to provide illusions, as well as Donandar initiates. There are references to Trickster Bands, such as the one that Oddi the Keen hangs out with riddling long into the night who illuminate him (Cults of Chaos p53 & 87). This suggests that in Dorastor at least, there are groups of tricksters who move about together (what a nightmare!). Who would seriously want to mess with a band of tricksters? Left to their own devices they will endlessly torment each other, but may unite against a common threat. It may be that some tribes who understand the benefits of having a trickster around to augment their hero quests may also keep a spare trickster or two in the clan line-up in case the chief's bonded trickster dies. Now, being a bonded trickster is potentially a pretty cushy gig, but even at 1 bonded trickster per clan there aren't enough of those jobs to go around. Most tricksters in Sartar will be unbonded; perhaps as many as 90% imo, but their lives will be like trollkin; brutish, nasty, hungry and short.